2h Frost is back in Shadowlands!

[Mirishka]

What a weird rant. This wasn't "an argument against 2h frost". I love 2h frost and want it to be a viable playstyle. It's almost as if you didn't read my posts and merely assumed my position on the matter. We're not talking about some small % differences. We're talking about basically no adjustments that would make 2h viable. It's more like playing Arms warrior with sword and shield. Sure, you can technically do it to own the people obsessing over performance but... You know, what? Suit yourself.

It doesn't really matter if they just give us the option to wear them if they can't be bothered to balance accordingly (which they haven't thus far).

Yeah clearly I assumed your stance. /s And pouting about balance in the very first released build of an alpha is just... stupid. Numbers are literally the last thing they should be worried about at this point.

But hey, in your own words, suit yourself.

Edit: forgot the

There's no pleasing some of you. We're forced to dual-wield, you bitch. They give us the option of using 2H again, you jump to conclusions based on the first freaking build of alpha and bitch.

I used to want to get into game design - but seeing how utterly insufferable the most vocal/visible gamers tend to be, yeah it killed that dream dead.

[Bisque]

I’m not salty Frost gets 2H back, but I am a little bit that Unholy doesn’t get DW back.

But, mark my words at the end of Shadowlands Frost will lose either DW or 2H, and for the same reason 2H was removed in the first place.

Heh, can you imagine if this is the end result come whatever expansion is after shadowlands... Heck blizz may bring out the old excuse of "balancing 2h and DW for frost was proving to difficult so frost will now be X" At that point honestly just give people a visual glyph for whatever frost spec they want to play. But I believe, and maybe it is my naivety or me being to optimistic, but I am hoping that blizz will do a better job this time around balancing 2h and dw frost.

[Nerovar]

There's no pleasing some of you. We're forced to dual-wield, you bitch. They give us the option of using 2H again, you jump to conclusions based on the first freaking build of alpha and bitch.

They didn't introduce many changes to most classes in the alpha/beta phases of the last two expansions. What leads you to believe that this time will be different?

I used to want to get into game design - but seeing how utterly insufferable the most vocal/visible gamers tend to be, yeah it killed that dream dead.

I mean, if people disagreeing with you puts that much strain on you, you probably wouldn't last long in that field of work anyways.

[Saltysquidoon]

Heh, can you imagine if this is the end result come whatever expansion is after shadowlands... Heck blizz may bring out the old excuse of "balancing 2h and DW for frost was proving to difficult so frost will now be X" At that point honestly just give people a visual glyph for whatever frost spec they want to play. But I believe, and maybe it is my naivety or me being to optimistic, but I am hoping that blizz will do a better job this time around balancing 2h and dw frost.

I don't want you to take this as me jumping down your throat.
But how after the bfa disaster in the alpha and beta where they "ran out of time" to do anything on shamans at all and intentionally left them broken for a whole live tier. Could you possibly have faith blizzard will even try to balance between 2h and DW?
Keep in mind Ion already said the major changes are in and 2h doesn't have any talents/passives or rune forges to compete with DW (which I would like to emphasise are mechanical issues and not simple numbers tweaks).

[Yarathir]

I used to want to get into game design - but seeing how utterly insufferable the most vocal/visible gamers tend to be, yeah it killed that dream dead.

Then your dream wasn't all that strong. Sounds more like a passing fancy.

[valky94]

1) They'll adjust the slower attack speed, worse proc rate and lack of second rune slot with big extra damage on obliterate which will mean we'll have to play a haste build for quicker rune generation and more KM procs that will work very well with BoS
.

there is no need to do that, outlaw rogues combat potency chance to regen energy scales with weapon speed that way you generate the same energy with a dagger or a one hander in your offhand, same could be done with killing machine procs

[Nerovar]

there is no need to do that, outlaw rogues combat potency chance to regen energy scales with weapon speed that way you generate the same energy with a dagger or a one hander in your offhand, same could be done with killing machine procs

That still doesn't solve the issue of not having Razorice.

[valky94]

That still doesn't solve the issue of not having Razorice.

well tough luck, ww will probably lose out on an enchant slot aswell if they play 2H

[tru]

well tough luck, ww will probably lose out on an enchant slot aswell if they play 2H

not like ww will scale well anyway... just like with frost lol

[Saltysquidoon]

If you're not using all of the abilities I listed in a dungeon or raid for example - you're a bad player who is't using your spec to it's full potential. *snip* - so you seem to have missed my point

I freely admit to being facetious with my list, but I contend that you have missed my point.

But first some errata
Given DnD costs a rune, a GCD and deals shadow damage there's a very real possibility that it will be entirely nonviable for all but the largest pulls (9+ mobs), that's also not purely a numbers argument it actively works against talents like frostscythe.
DC is in a similar boat, given lichborne now gives leech and DS now costs RP there's a real argument to be made it won't make it into a macro and in pve it would only be used when you have extensive down time but the difference in pooling for FS won't be made up by the generation of KM procs when you return to the boss (think cata nef tier downtime).
This is my point returning abilities that are so niche, as to possibly not make it to the bar and interact with neither talents or the rest of your spec, is a smokescreen by blizzard to coverup the lack of real work being done on some specs this expansion. It's the same as hard cast 2s corruption for demo and destro, is it theoretically a button that exists for you to press? Yes. Will anyone actually ever press it? No.

To my wider point: When speaking about rotational health of a spec including things that every class and spec has like; CC, interrupts, defensives and utility are superfluous the conversation. I would argue even non-interactive CDs are superfluous to rotational health, for example, FwF is a great spell the have baseline but a spell you press on CD every CD that's completely free essentially adds nothing (that said please don't take this to mean every spell or CD in a toolkit must be interwoven with the spec it's fine to have some set and forget skills).
My problem with frost is if you are not specced into BoS it has neither depth or complexity it's impossible to fail. Instead of fixing this core issue (which for example the alpha for the next expo might be a good time to do), they continue to push Bos (a talent) as frost's pseudo core mechanic rather than doing the core work the spec needs. As mentioned above this is further imflamed by implication I should be thankful to have 2h back (even though they have and likely will do nothing to make it viable) and weird niche borderline unusable skills like DC instead of actual meaningful work on what is this point an archaic spec.

[Nerovar]

My problem with frost is if you are not specced into BoS it has neither depth or complexity it's impossible to fail. Instead of fixing this core issue (which for example the alpha for the next expo might be a good time to do), they continue to push Bos (a talent) as frost's pseudo core mechanic rather than doing the core work the spec needs. As mentioned above this is further imflamed by implication I should be thankful to have 2h back (even though they have and likely will do nothing to make it viable) and weird niche borderline unusable skills like DC instead of actual meaningful work on what is this point an archaic spec.

Frost mostly suffers from the fact that it was always a very simple spec that only had some semblance of depth due to how the old rune system worked with stuff like blood tap and plague leech added on top. In Legion they took that away and basically transformed what was already the most braindead melee spec into a simple CD based builder/spender playstyle.
I also don't get why people want Breath of Sindragosa to be weak/removed. It's the only mechanic Frost has left that requires some brain tissue to use.

[Nefarious Tea]

Heh, can you imagine if this is the end result come whatever expansion is after shadowlands... Heck blizz may bring out the old excuse of "balancing 2h and DW for frost was proving to difficult so frost will now be X" At that point honestly just give people a visual glyph for whatever frost spec they want to play. But I believe, and maybe it is my naivety or me being to optimistic, but I am hoping that blizz will do a better job this time around balancing 2h and dw frost.

That is exactly what I’m expecting

[Fkiolaris]

That's fair, as long as I have access to the buttons I don't care who uses/doesn't use them. I've just seen so many PvE centric players talk about wanting "useless" buttons removed that I as a PvPer used every game.

I am with you 100% on this

[Unholyground]

Frost mostly suffers from the fact that it was always a very simple spec that only had some semblance of depth due to how the old rune system worked with stuff like blood tap and plague leech added on top. In Legion they took that away and basically transformed what was already the most braindead melee spec into a simple CD based builder/spender playstyle.
I also don't get why people want Breath of Sindragosa to be weak/removed. It's the only mechanic Frost has left that requires some brain tissue to use.

I love breath, when you set it up right it feels really good to use.

[Nerovar]

I love breath, when you set it up right it feels really good to use.

Yeah. When they introduced Breath in WoD it was some of the best fun I've had with my DK.

[Unholyground]

Yeah. When they introduced Breath in WoD it was some of the best fun I've had with my DK.

Even more fun if you have the talent that buffs the damage and duration of your remorseless winter when you spend runes and pop empowered rune weapon after you hit both and have a flurry of insane frost damage.

[Kendros]

It doesn't need to go back to weapon damage scaling in order to hit hard. Could either reintroduce might of the frozen wastes, rework a talent, or make an honor talent which would increase obliterate/frostscythe by a %.

Oh yeah cause that woldnt make the spec more of a shitshow than already is. Youre delusional.

[docterfreeze]

Oh yeah cause that woldnt make the spec more of a shitshow than already is. Youre delusional.

Wanting a playstyle to return doesn't make me delusional my man. I just want to have fun.

[Bigcountry11782]

as of right now in alpha its garbage.Sad to say.It is super slow and can't compete with duel wield.I like the idea of frost 2hander though so i hope they can work on this.

Edit:I should say i like 2 hander frost not that i like the idea since it was a thing till legion

- - - Updated - - -

ALL OF THE HYPE! LIFE HAS MEANING AGAIN! I gotta start farming up two handers again for transmog... I gotta get people to help me do the damn blood quest for Shadowmourne. Fornicate me!

You don't have Shadowmourne as a death knight :O begone peasant :P

[Kendros]

as of right now in alpha its garbage.Sad to say.It is super slow and can't compete with duel wield.I like the idea of frost 2hander though so i hope they can work on this.

Edit:I should say i like 2 hander frost not that i like the idea since it was a thing till legion

- - - Updated - - -



You don't have Shadowmourne as a death knight :O begone peasant :P

They will have to balance 2 subspec within one spec. Guess whats gonna happen to that spec balance wise for the whole duration of the xpac given blizz record of balacing? Its gonna be a dead spec if you care about pushing content. Or at most one is gonna push so far ahead thats the other wont be worth a damn. Congrats you did it!!!!