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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Playintrafic View Post
    Lol yeah, ff14 where you can just buy item level cap gear with gil, then pentameld it and be about 95% as strong as you can get.

    Besides, if you aren't doing anything with the gear, you don't need the gear anyways.

    if you aren't raiding heroic, you dont need 445+ ilvl, if you aren't raiding mythic you dont need 460+ ilvl.

    If you aren't pushing 12s and 15s or higher you dont need that ilvl.

    You can easily manage any world quests with like 410-420 ilvl. If all you are doing is open content, what is the point of 470 gear?
    Pretty much this.

    My druid who I just leveled hasn't stepped foot into a dungeon, and is already 435. And he is only a few days old. And I play him casually.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    We can only hope. WoW was at its best when it was Raid or Die.
    You mean hemorrhaging subscribers and more anti social than the games ever been? thank god you aren't in charge of things...

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by tylenol View Post
    You mean hemorrhaging subscribers and more anti social than the games ever been? thank god you aren't in charge of things...
    Highest sub number when it was Raid or Die in Wrath. Been going downhill since they opened the game up to casuals.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthope View Post
    You did read where I was talking about people who DON'T push mythic keys or raids. I thought I made it quite clear. Maybe I didn't.



    We'll see.
    You DON'T need to PUSH keys to get good gear dude. The gear you get from not pushing keys is a bit weaker, just like FF XIV doing only expert roulettes and edenchoir currently or farming allegory tomestones. You just can't accept the truth because you thought no FF XIV player would come to actually give insight to both games. You don't have to try so hard to make FF XIV look good you know? It already does that by itself and it's a solid game, no need to make it sound like it's so superior to WoW in endgame systems/gearing, when it's not by a large margin at all, at least not when it comes to casual gearing.

    When it comes to full BiS gearing, FF XIV blows WoW out of the water, but your thread is about casuals getting sub-optimal gear, not about players who want to raid the hardest stuff and obtaining bis.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, it's far better than only being able to hope for a tiny chance of getting a WF/TF.

    But that's not the main point of what I typed. Again: It's about introducing a system of the same philosophy that takes the best of VP and the best of Emblems and further improves on it to provide deterministic progression to players of all gameplay types, not the same exact mechanics and values.
    It's not far better. It's actually worse because in the end all players can be on relatively same power level.
    Casuals needs to put a lot more effort because:
    Mythic raider only wants to have a bit of luck to get +5 or +10, and that is a max.
    Casual needs to get +15 to just be on BASE level of what mythic raider gets and +25 to be on max ilvl (which is far less likely than just getting +10).

    The only thing VP was even remotely good at was buying a token catchup gear. Everything else was simply bad.
    It was just a plain gear tax.

    IF heroic gear would be upgradable to mythic gear with lets say 1-2 week worth of effort, while mythic gear wouldn't be upgradeable, then maybe it would have worked.
    But original system was simply bad.
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2020-04-20 at 05:25 AM.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Playintrafic View Post
    Besides, if you aren't doing anything with the gear, you don't need the gear anyways.

    if you aren't raiding heroic, you dont need 445+ ilvl, if you aren't raiding mythic you dont need 460+ ilvl.

    If you aren't pushing 12s and 15s or higher you dont need that ilvl.

    You can easily manage any world quests with like 410-420 ilvl. If all you are doing is open content, what is the point of 470 gear?
    People don't play because they need gear. People play because they want gear. Just saying...getting the new shiny gear isn't about "need", and never has been for most players.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorimar View Post
    lol. wow has been dumbed down to cater to as much casuals as possible. yet here is a snowflake that still cant find his way...
    if this is your opinion on shadowlands after the "stuff you heard"then you havent heard much or its fake news lol.
    fun fact i actually geared up doing nothing. i have 3 characters at 450 by doing WQ's and assaults and the occasion LFR that is all. Shadowlands is going to have all 3 of those so how is it hard to gear?
    He’s throwing a fit because the rng stuff I going bye bye so he will be forever stuck at the normal raid gear level

    He won’t have inflated ilvl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    People don't play because they need gear. People play because they want gear. Just saying...getting the new shiny gear isn't about "need", and never has been for most players.
    Then you do what you need to in order to get the gear

    Ppl are just mad because TF is removed

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Then you do what you need to in order to get the gear

    Ppl are just mad because TF is removed
    Which Ppl? Most of the Ppl I've seen talk about it are very happy it's going away.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Licketysplit77 View Post
    *** YAWNING YAWNING KEEP YOUR PERSONAL OPINION TO YOURSELF!!!!! ***

    Also factually incorrect - Raid or Die model is not happening in Shadowlands
    I know it’s not
    You know it’s not
    He knows it’s not

    The OP and pretty much every other player parroting that bs is just upset TF is removed because for them endgame is that boar quest that gives a trinket

    They still get all the gear drops before but this time when they kill the boar for the 20th time they don’t get the chance at an item that can boost their ilvl high enough to skip the “fail groups” and get carried

    The thought of extra effort into the game to get better than mediocre makes them have an aneurism

    The best way to frame this in a way where they don’t appear whiny is blaming the raiders and invoking WoD

    Nothing in SL is pointing towards it being WoD levels of disappointment and they know it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Which Ppl? Most of the Ppl I've seen talk about it are very happy it's going away.
    Ppl like the OP

    The argument is that by removing the lottery then the game becomes Raid or die similar to warlords and thus blizzard is catering to hard-core Raiders that will raid log

    They don’t actually use any form of logic behind that because they don’t take into account professions are going to be much different compared to how they were in warlords so you don’t have access to all consumables we also have more in Schantz we also have armor kits we also have weapon oil’s but they don’t care because at this point their loot lottery was taken away and they only play for gear

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Ppl like the OP

    The argument is that by removing the lottery then the game becomes Raid or die similar to warlords and thus blizzard is catering to hard-core Raiders that will raid log

    They don’t actually use any form of logic behind that because they don’t take into account professions are going to be much different compared to how they were in warlords so you don’t have access to all consumables we also have more in Schantz we also have armor kits we also have weapon oil’s but they don’t care because at this point their loot lottery was taken away and they only play for gear
    He didn't make that argument. His argument was to give him a long, difficult process to get the best gear. That's not slot machine. I mean, it can be, but doesn't have to be. He even talked about the Wrath model, which had no titan forging or loot slot machine.

    Seems like you are projecting a bit.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    We can only hope. WoW was at its best when it was Raid or Die.
    Ah, guess that's why WoD was such a huuuuuuuuuuge succes... O wait

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    Highest sub number when it was Raid or Die in Wrath. Been going downhill since they opened the game up to casuals.
    Oh come on now, Wotlk was thé casual expansion compared to both previous and later iterations.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Ah, guess that's why WoD was such a huuuuuuuuuuge succes... O wait

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh come on now, Wotlk was thé casual expansion compared to both previous and later iterations.
    wrath was casual players heave with how easy obtainable badges were.

    all blizzard has to do is to bring back badge/VP gear for pve and everything will be golden .

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    The thought of extra effort into the game to get better than mediocre makes them have an aneurism
    Much like the thought of extra effort through time spent playing in order to get better gear appears to give you an aneurism. Either that or it just brings out the elitist arrogant in you, and in many others, apparently.

    You might enjoy challenge in videogames. You might derive satisfaction, likely even pride, from getting better at a videogame. Not everyone is like you. And people are not less important, or less of a gamer, for not being like you. The majority of people play games to have fun and to entertain themselves, not to test nor improve themselves nor their skills. And that is especially true in a MMORPG, which are typically a lot more about your character and its stats and gear, rather than "skill".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It's not far better. It's actually worse because in the end all players can be on relatively same power level.
    Casuals needs to put a lot more effort because:
    Mythic raider only wants to have a bit of luck to get +5 or +10, and that is a max.
    Casual needs to get +15 to just be on BASE level of what mythic raider gets and +25 to be on max ilvl (which is far less likely than just getting +10).

    The only thing VP was even remotely good at was buying a token catchup gear. Everything else was simply bad.
    It was just a plain gear tax.

    IF heroic gear would be upgradable to mythic gear with lets say 1-2 week worth of effort, while mythic gear wouldn't be upgradeable, then maybe it would have worked.
    But original system was simply bad.
    Not sure I'm understanding correctly. Are you saying it would be good if only Heroic raiding gear could be upgraded to Mythic, and not gear from easier content? Or just that all gear should be upgradeable to Mythic level eventually, and Mythic couldn't be upgraded further?

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Much like the thought of extra effort through time spent playing in order to get better gear appears to give you an aneurism. Either that or it just brings out the elitist arrogant in you, and in many others, apparently.

    You might enjoy challenge in videogames. You might derive satisfaction, likely even pride, from getting better at a videogame. Not everyone is like you. And people are not less important, or less of a gamer, for not being like you. The majority of people play games to have fun and to entertain themselves, not to test nor improve themselves nor their skills. And that is especially true in a MMORPG, which are typically a lot more about your character and its stats and gear, rather than "skill".

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not sure I'm understanding correctly. Are you saying it would be good if only Heroic raiding gear could be upgraded to Mythic, and not gear from easier content? Or just that all gear should be upgradeable to Mythic level eventually, and Mythic couldn't be upgraded further?
    thats the problem with core philosophy of how game model is build.

    mmorpgs at its core were about grind in order to faceroll stuff - you farmed gear to kill stronger enemies to farm gear - neverending loop

    while raiders in wow for years try to break this core and turn wow into arpg instance symulator - based on skills not on gear.

    from looks of things they succeded but in process they are killing game and forcing people to play other games that arent arpg based.

    look at classic - fundamentaly its skilles game that requires you to just farm gear (10 % skills 90 % gear ) - and how many people it has compared to current wow which is 90% skills 10 % gear.

    devs in blizzard sucks at analyzing data they have - becaue of confirmation bias they have due to them being raiders and making content for raiders.

    thats why wow is failing badly since WolK - MoP era which provided masses with easy content rewarding very good rewards for repetition (JP/VP gear)

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    *snip*
    I mean to be fair, I do think that WoW's decrease in popularity was inevitable, and MoP - BfA is actually doing better in terms of delta instead of total players - meaning: WotLK was a phase of stagnation, and Cata - MoP a phase of steep decline. By now the decline appears to be very low with the population now probably stable at a lower number.

    With that said, I do agree with the sentiment that WoW has indeed become too much like an ARPG instance simulator. And that's coming from someone whose main content interest has been Heroic Raiding for years. And don't get me wrong, to be fair that is probably objectively what it does best. There are many games out there, ARPG and MMORPG alike, which do story, leveling and questing better than WoW, while WoW's instances (in particularly raid) are still regarded as the best by many - at least that's my perception.

    But this doesn't mean it should do a complete turnaround either. I think modern WoW can have a much better balance between rewarding pure skill and rewarding time investment. Playing the game should be rewarding, in the long term, and not only for the players who do hard content.

    Vote Points / Emblems imo are what came close to the best balance between these 2 extremes, and I think with some adjustments, it could provide a much better experience for the average player - even if it comes at the cost of the hardcore players' pride being hurt by "noobs" eventually getting gear similar to theirs.

    Such a system would also be benefitial for raiders, as it would greatly diminish non-raiding content that raiders are "forced" to do: for isntance, they wouldn't anymore be "forced" to do M+, because they could just farm some Heroic dungeon or do some World Quests every now and then in order to get the VP they need. It would also help diminish bad luck with drops: Like spending a whole raid tier without getting a trinket or some boots.
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2020-04-20 at 09:47 AM.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Much like the thought of extra effort through time spent playing in order to get better gear appears to give you an aneurism. Either that or it just brings out the elitist arrogant in you, and in many others, apparently.

    You might enjoy challenge in videogames. You might derive satisfaction, likely even pride, from getting better at a videogame. Not everyone is like you. And people are not less important, or less of a gamer, for not being like you. The majority of people play games to have fun and to entertain themselves, not to test nor improve themselves nor their skills. And that is especially true in a MMORPG, which are typically a lot more about your character and its stats and gear, rather than "skill".

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not sure I'm understanding correctly. Are you saying it would be good if only Heroic raiding gear could be upgraded to Mythic, and not gear from easier content? Or just that all gear should be upgradeable to Mythic level eventually, and Mythic couldn't be upgraded further?
    How is it elitist to say that we should keep the same reward structure that we had for a majority of the game minus the lottery

    Who is losing anything with this current system you’re going to be as geared if not slightly more so than someone who just runs normal raids and you will be able to achieve that by simply doing your world content still you lose nothing no one loses anything the only thing that has been removed is the lottery

    Everyone talks about how this is going to be a repeat of warlords and they try to name all these reasons but they don’t actually understand the reasons that they are naming

    People talk about Raid logging when that can’t happen because there’s so many more consumables that you can’t just make out of nowhere anymore so you have to farm the materials so you have to do something outside of the Raid

    You have to do the tower for your legendary so you’re going to be doing that more often

    you’re probably going to be doing dungeons because of how they affect the weekly chest

    You can probably still do world PVP you’re now going to have professional gear that is useful

    What is being removed and how am I elitist for saying that we don’t need to change your system for the sake of change where it will be more convoluted?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    I mean to be fair, I do think that WoW's decrease in popularity was inevitable, and MoP - BfA is actually doing better in terms of delta instead of total players - meaning: WotLK was a phase of stagnation, and Cata - MoP a phase of steep decline. By now the decline appears to be very low with the population now probably stable at a lower number.

    With that said, I do agree with the sentiment that WoW has indeed become too much like an ARPG instance simulator. And that's coming from someone whose main content interest has been Heroic Raiding for years. And don't get me wrong, to be fair that is probably objectively what it does best. There are many games out there, ARPG and MMORPG alike, which do story, leveling and questing better than WoW, while WoW's instances (in particularly raid) are still regarded as the best by many - at least that's my perception.

    But this doesn't mean it should do a complete turnaround either. I think modern WoW can have a much better balance between rewarding pure skill and rewarding time investment. Playing the game should be rewarding, in the long term, and not only for the players who do hard content.

    Vote Points / Emblems imo are what came close to the best balance between these 2 extremes, and I think with some adjustments, it could provide a much better experience for the average player - even if it comes at the cost of the hardcore players' pride being hurt by "noobs" eventually getting gear similar to theirs.

    Such a system would also be benefitial for raiders, as it would greatly diminish non-raiding content that raiders are "forced" to do: for isntance, they wouldn't anymore be "forced" to do M+, because they could just farm some Heroic dungeon or do some World Quests every now and then in order to get the VP they need. It would also help diminish bad luck with drops: Like spending a whole raid tier without getting a trinket or some boots.
    The game is more rewarding with more effort placed into it just like every role playing game from the beginning of time

    I don’t want valor point upgrades again because guess what Fowler point upgrades didn’t really solve an issue they were just another crappy system tacked on and you don’t need badges anymore because you will still get Raid quality gear for essentially just doing world quests

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    how am I elitist for saying that we don’t need to change your system for the sake of change where it will be more convoluted?
    I was replying to the particular phrase I quoted. Not everyone wants to make an effort to get better at the game, and will just stop playing when the content they do enjoy doing, no matter how trivial or easy it may be for the more advanced players, stops being rewarding.

    Imo, everyone should have a long term non-slot-machine progression path. Even if they don't do raids, nor M+, nor Tower, nor PvP. The VP/Emblem system is what came close to achieving this, and with some improvements could be great for the health of the game.

    Challenging content is great and an important part of modern WoW, but it shouldn't be the only long-term reliable progression path. And imo even players who do challenging content would benefit from such a system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    The game is more rewarding with more effort placed into it just like every role playing game from the beginning of time
    Effort being the key word. Spending time playing the game is effort. More time spent => more rewarding. Even if that time wasn't spent on challenging gameplay.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    thats the problem with core philosophy of how game model is build.

    mmorpgs at its core were about grind in order to faceroll stuff - you farmed gear to kill stronger enemies to farm gear - neverending loop

    while raiders in wow for years try to break this core and turn wow into arpg instance symulator - based on skills not on gear.

    from looks of things they succeded but in process they are killing game and forcing people to play other games that arent arpg based.

    look at classic - fundamentaly its skilles game that requires you to just farm gear (10 % skills 90 % gear ) - and how many people it has compared to current wow which is 90% skills 10 % gear.

    devs in blizzard sucks at analyzing data they have - becaue of confirmation bias they have due to them being raiders and making content for raiders.

    thats why wow is failing badly since WolK - MoP era which provided masses with easy content rewarding very good rewards for repetition (JP/VP gear)
    Ok so you want the classic loot way and mechanics? So everyone can faceroll EVERYTHING (because that is what is happening in classic) and loot is so sparse you get a few pieces for 40 people once a week?

    I do not understand your problem i am sorry. Are you angry, that people who choose to do so can do the SAME content just more difficult because the get joy out of it? Are you angry that you cannot get mythic gear in LFR? Also please tell me what you "see"? (sic: and how many people it has compared to current wow) Becuase i don't know the numbers and i am pretty sure you don't either.

    The game still is getting better gear to faceroll it. It is just more engaging in the process. Classic is so successful because of nostalgia. An that is ok. I liked it. And i am finished with. People like it. If you bring out game with this kind of balance and boss battles it would tank.

    Same discussion like the whole Sekiro debacle where poeple demanded a "rofllol"-modus. Why do poeple feel the need to take stuff away from other poeple who like the game in a harder way. I like raiding mythic. I like getting better gear out of it. You don't. Ok. LFR and normal are here for you. There is litterally no difficulty in them. You can make mistakes and get gear outside of it which helps you roflstomp it into the ground and back.

    You don't want to play a game you just want to kill stuff and get stuff without any work whatsover. Look at that. ARPGS are here for you. Most of them have a setting which allows you to do exactly that.

    /endrant
    Classic was not the way it is today back in the day. They had to work hard to get the BIS Gear otherwise you would not be taken anywhere.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    I was replying to the particular phrase I quoted. Not everyone wants to make an effort to get better at the game, and will just stop playing when the content they do enjoy doing, no matter how trivial or easy it may be for the more advanced players, stops being rewarding.

    Imo, everyone should have a long term non-slot-machine progression path. Even if they don't do raids, nor M+, nor Tower, nor PvP. The VP/Emblem system is what came close to achieving this, and with some improvements could be great for the health of the game.

    Challenging content is great and an important part of modern WoW, but it shouldn't be the only long-term reliable progression path. And imo even players who do challenging content would benefit from such a system.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Effort being the key word. Spending time playing the game is effort. More time spent => more rewarding. Even if that time wasn't spent on challenging gameplay.
    So are you telling me that a player who does for world quests a day places in more effort than a person who mythic raids??

    And again I’m not saying that you have to get better at the game but the reward structure gives your rewards appropriate for the content that you do and the content in World of Warcraft is essentially divided by the different effort that one place is into it

    You can toss in 500 hours at Skyrim but it doesn’t mean you’re going to be at the game

    The players who choose not to do challenging content have an end game reward system currently and that is the world quest system that is the weekly event quest system that is professions that is the tower

    The only difference is that Raiders can technically get better gear but that’s fine because we all have the best in slot based on the content that we do and we all replace it when the next patch comes out what is the difference between Little Jimmy doing world quests and getting gear and little Timmy doing a heroic raid and getting gear??

    Is it literally just the difference in power?
    Last edited by Revamp Man; 2020-04-20 at 10:39 AM.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Not sure I'm understanding correctly. Are you saying it would be good if only Heroic raiding gear could be upgraded to Mythic, and not gear from easier content? Or just that all gear should be upgradeable to Mythic level eventually, and Mythic couldn't be upgraded further?
    Obviously I meant all gear up to mythic level.

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