**SPOILERS** The true enemy of the Shadowlands

[Coconut]

Dude take a chill pill. No reason to call my theory stupid. If you don't agree with it, fine but don't be a jerk about it.

And I say "I believe..." in my OP. I never stated it as fact.

There's no point in arguing with him. It's already obvious to whoever is paying attention to the thread that your response was on point and he immediately backtracked, and now he's trying to deflect the conversation. Your theory is very interesting (and I think it's clear to everyone who isn't being disingenuous that it's just a theory for now) and is definitely worth exploring. Wish this thread could be used for that instead of being flooded by haters who just try to bury it because they don't like how it could indirectly give Sylvanas some form of moral justification for her plans.

[literallysame]

There's no point in arguing with him. It's already obvious to whoever is paying attention to the thread that your response was on point and he immediately backtracked, and now he's trying to deflect the conversation. Your theory is very interesting (and I think it's clear to everyone who isn't being disingenuous that it's just a theory for now) and is definitely worth exploring. Wish this thread could be used for that instead of being flooded by haters who just try to bury it because they don't like how it could indirectly give Sylvanas some form of moral justification for her plans.

I agree. I wish some people on this forum weren't always red hot with rage. I wish we could all get along and just discuss our theories with some class.

[Varodoc]

It took me LIKE a minute to find. It is a saying. Why are you so literal?

"So with the datamining started, there are models for the Jailer and the Arbiter. The Jailer is missing his heart or power core which the Arbiter is in possession of. I believe that the Arbiter is the usurper and that the Jailer or whatever his true name is, is the true ruler of the Shadowlands. Here is a pic of the Jailer. The Arbiter isn't up yet but I saw it on the wowhead stream and she definitely has his heart/power core. I'll update the post with a pic of her when she's up."

And some people just like to speculate and theorize. Twists can work very well for a story. Why not let people be their own persons?

Never heard of that saying.

You said that "believe" after taking for granted that the Jailer is 1) missing his heart 2) the Arbiter has his heart.

You can speculate all you want. Just like I can point out how your theories are wrong. Sadly this isn't your personal blog.

There's no point in arguing with him. It's already obvious to whoever is paying attention to the thread that your response was on point and he immediately backtracked, and now he's trying to deflect the conversation. Your theory is very interesting (and I think it's clear to everyone who isn't being disingenuous that it's just a theory for now) and is definitely worth exploring. Wish this thread could be used for that instead of being flooded by haters who just try to bury it because they don't like how it could indirectly give Sylvanas some form of moral justification for her plans.

Says the guy who insulted all Alliance players.

Also show me where the backtracking is.

Also his theory is just about the Jailer lmao, Sylvanas isn't mentioned anywhere.

[literallysame]

Never heard of that saying.

You said that "believe" after taking for granted that the Jailer is 1) missing his heart 2) the Arbiter has his heart.

You can speculate all you want. Just like I can point out how your theories are wrong. Sadly this isn't your personal blog.



Says the guy who insulted all Alliance players.

Also show me where the backtracking is.

Also his theory is just about the Jailer lmao, Sylvanas isn't mentioned anywhere.

This is my theory. My theory. If you look at the models, The Jailer is missing something in his chest hole. The Arbiter has a black orb in her chest area. Put two and two together and you get my theory. Also I'm so sick of people bringing up the "this isn't your blog". Yeah duh. I know, but this is my thread of my theory. That is what the Lore forums have been used for on this site for a while.

And in reference to Sylvanas, some people on here have inferred that if The Jailer isn't truly evil then Sylvanas isn't either since she is allied with him. So indirectly it does have something to do with her.

[Varodoc]

This is my theory. My theory. If you look at the models, The Jailer is missing something in his chest hole. The Arbiter has a black orb in her chest area. Put two and two together and you get my theory. Also I'm so sick of people bringing up the "this isn't your blog". Yeah duh. I know, but this is my thread of my theory. That is what the Lore forums have been used for on this site for a while.

And in reference to Sylvanas, some people on here have inferred that if The Jailer isn't truly evil then Sylvanas isn't either since she is allied with him. So indirectly it does have something to do with her.

But where do you say it is your theory? You even say at the end that she "definitely" has his power core. "Definitely" nothing. For all we know the Arbiter and Jailer were both given those cores when they were created and the Jailer lost it because he's stupid.

Yeah, someone who doomed countless innocents to eternal torment is not evil.

[Coconut]

But where do you say it is your theory? You even say at the end that she "definitely" has his power core. "Definitely" nothing. For all we know the Arbiter and Jailer were both given those cores when they were created and the Jailer lost it because he's stupid.

Yeah, someone who doomed countless innocents to eternal torment is not evil.

He just said it's a theory. There's no point in arguing over the semantics of the original post, this is simply derailing the thread.

To answer the part of your comment that is on topic, he could be evil precisely because he is missing his heart, much like Te Kā in Moana.

[Varodoc]

He just said it's a theory. There's no point in arguing over the semantics of the original post, this is simply derailing the thread.

To answer the part of your comment that is on topic, he could be evil precisely because he is missing his heart, much like Te Kā in Moana.

I'm not derailing the thread lol, it's incorrect to say that the Arbiter *definitely* has his core, because there is no indication of that and it's just spreading misinformation.

And now OP updated it, good. I don't really think I said something so weird or aggressive? "Definitely" is a very strong word that shouldn't be used if you just want to speculate something.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I agree. I wish some people on this forum weren't always red hot with rage. I wish we could all get along and just discuss our theories with some class.

I 100% agree with you. I created a thread yesterday about... well a certain Loa being mortal and one person randomly came in and pretty much wanted to jump down my throat because s/he thought I was wrong. I wish people could just theorize and like things without someone getting mad

[Naramag]

I don't know, if it came up, so here's my theory: When I see the supposed Arbiter, all I can think of is Light. Maybe the golden, bearded Jailer is supposed to be the real Arbiter, but the Light took over, stole his power and send him to the Maw to die or something like that. But with the rest of his power, he took the place of the Jailer. Maybe the Maw was created through the new Arbiter. Being the Jailer was the only way the old Arbiter could stay in the Shadowlands and try to get back behind the wheel. Since he recruited Sylvanas, we automatically think he is evil.

If you look at the places in the Shadowlands, there are places for bad souls to redeem themselves. Kaelthas is incarcerated in Revendreth, isn't he? So maybe the whole Maw isn't supposed to exist.

[Coconut]

I 100% agree with you. I created a thread yesterday about... well a certain Loa being mortal and one person randomly came in and pretty much wanted to jump down my throat because I was wrong. I wish people could just theorize and like things without someone getting mad

Having spent a lot of time on ASoIaF forums (both westeros.org and the asoiaf subreddit), it's definitely cool when people are allowed to propose, expand and discuss theories. I mean, you see some push back there as well, it's only natural, but not furious and tangential like here. @literallysame's observation is pretty awesome even if it does turn out to be nothing (or Blizzard changes because somebody figured it out ). At least it can motivate us to look for clues in the Alpha once Oribos and the Maw become available. Your thread was pretty interesting too, for that matter (and nice avatar, btw).

And now OP updated it, good. I don't really think I said something so weird or aggressive? "Definitely" is a very strong word that shouldn't be used if you just want to speculate something.

Good thing you helped him word his original post better (though, if I may, if you want to advise people about that, you should be more direct about it). Now we can hopefully move on to discussing the actual topic.

[huth]

It is a theory. Holy moly.

A theory is a hypothesis with a significant body of evidence for its veracity. No, it is not a theory.

[Varodoc]

A theory is a hypothesis with a significant body of evidence for its veracity. No, it is not a theory.

And it absolutely shouldn't contradict what the writers stated. Twice.

[literallysame]

A theory is a hypothesis with a significant body of evidence for its veracity. No, it is not a theory.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory

See; 5: abstract thought: SPECULATION

Nice try though.

Also here: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/theory

See; 6: contemplation or speculation

[LemonDemonGirl]

Having spent a lot of time on ASoIaF forums (both westeros.org and the asoiaf subreddit), it's definitely cool when people are allowed to propose, expand and discuss theories. I mean, you see some push back there as well, it's only natural, but not furious and tangential like here.
@literallysame's observation is pretty awesome even if it does turn out to be nothing (or Blizzard changes because somebody figured it out ). At least it can motivate us to look for clues in the Alpha once Oribos and the Maw become available. Your thread was pretty interesting too, for that matter (and nice avatar, btw).

Awww thank you! Even though I didn't draw my avatar, I still appreciate comments on it

Yeah, reddit has some interesting discussions from time to time, but I haven't thought of posting my theories on there until now. From what I've seen people are a lot more relaxed than they are on here.

I might give it a try later

[Lumineus]

Just because the Jailer was apparently deposed and had his... core? taken and installed in the Arbiter, which to my eye is clearly some sort of automaton and not an afterlife native, does not preclude him from being the villain. Indeed, cruelly torturing undeserving souls in his hellish realm for all eternity says a lot about his character, whether he chose this lot in life or not. Frankly, it's obvious they're playing it as a straight homage to Grecian mythology, with Zovaal in the role of Kronos, possibly with a bit of other mythos sprinkled on for flavor. His name, for example, is just "Lavos" backwards with some high fantasy flair applied. Guess they used up all the other time god names on bronze dragons.

[Coconut]

I don't know, if it came up, so here's my theory: When I see the supposed Arbiter, all I can think of is Light. Maybe the golden, bearded Jailer is supposed to be the real Arbiter, but the Light took over, stole his power and send him to the Maw to die or something like that. But with the rest of his power, he took the place of the Jailer. Maybe the Maw was created through the new Arbiter. Being the Jailer was the only way the old Arbiter could stay in the Shadowlands and try to get back behind the wheel. Since he recruited Sylvanas, we automatically think he is evil.

If you look at the places in the Shadowlands, there are places for bad souls to redeem themselves. Kaelthas is incarcerated in Revendreth, isn't he? So maybe the whole Maw isn't supposed to exist.

I would lean more towards Titan construct, but Light is a possibility too. She certainly seems closer to Bastion than any other Shadowlands region we've seen, so maybe that's where she is sending her own chosen (including the player character)? The Forsworn Uther does accuse the Kyrian of being complicit in some imbalance in the Shadowlands.

She also makes me think of the Draenei soul-golems from Auchindoun and Argus. Not Draenei in origin, but the same concept... a soul that uses a machine to anchor itself. The Draenei golems are bound to the world of the living even though they're souls in robots, so maybe the Arbiter, although being in the Shadowlands, is shielded by its rules inside the machine? So she's more like us, there as a "living" entity rather than a free-floating soul.

It's also possible that the Maw existed from the start as a place for strong, irredeemable souls to go. When The Jailer literally became heartless, this definition would apply to him as well, so he automatically got sucked in the Maw. But maybe there is something inherent about him that draws souls, and at some point the current Arbiter couldn't circumvent that anymore (maybe he always drew in some, slowly growing in power, until they reached a breaking point where he Arbiter couldn't prevent any at all from getting to him).

Yeah, reddit has some interesting discussions from time to time, but I haven't thought of posting my theories on there until now. From what I've seen people are a lot more relaxed than they are on here.

I might give it a try later

I was referring more to the asoiaf subreddit... not sure what the WoW one is like, but good luck.

[Kalarm]

So the same thing OP has done this entire thread, claiming that the Jailer is actually the good guy when Blizzard repeatedly said he is the main villain?

Yeah because if Blizzard is planning a plot twist they will clearly go and advertise it... "So yeah you'll be fighting the jailer at first but in 9.2.5 you'll actually learn that he wasn't the bad guy you thought he was and the true villain is the arbiter"...

Maybe he is just plain evil and we'll kick his ass. Maybe he's not. All speculation is on the table right now... And "Because blizzard said so" for a story element that they would not want to spoil is really not a good argument.

[Varodoc]

Yeah because if Blizzard is planning a plot twist they will clearly go and advertise it... "So yeah you'll be fighting the jailer at first but in 8.2.5 you'll actually learn that he wasn't the bad guy you thought he was and the true villain is the arbiter"...

Maybe he is just plain evil and we'll kick his ass. Maybe he's not. All speculation is on the table right now... And "Because blizzard said so" for a story element that they would not want to spoil is really not a good argument.

When they say twice that he is the main villain and central driving force of the expansion and they are going to develop his motivations a lot, I would say it is clear that they are not planning any twist as far as main villain is concerned.

[Kalarm]

When they say twice that he is the main villain and central driving force of the expansion and they are going to develop his motivations a lot, I would say it is clear that they are not planning any twist as far as main villain is concerned.

You're either incredibly guillible or a troll...

People can make theories and speculate. Maybe they will turn true maybe they won't but my god, blizzard saying "This is the villain" doesn't mean shit. They said Sylvanas was going to be morally grey for fuck's sake.

[Darth-Piekus]

When they say twice that he is the main villain and central driving force of the expansion and they are going to develop his motivations a lot, I would say it is clear that they are not planning any twist as far as main villain is concerned.

What does that make Sylvannas? Second Rate villain that is gonna die before the Jailer?