9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

So you make a choice based on the cosmetics of it and that’s fine that’s 100% OK you do you boo

In that case the covenant abilities being tied to the covenants themselves has absolutely 0% of an effect on how you play the game

Their players like myself who do take cosmetics into account but I like to maximize my character in terms of output and in terms of performance now why should my gameplay be made more of a pain in the ass because blizzard wants to try and call it a meaningful choice

Maybe I really like how the angel brows look maybe I want to play for cosmetics but maybe I also run high and mythic plus dungeons maybe I am also a mythic raider maybe I am also a high-level PVP are aiming for gladiator

Why should players in those situations feel like they are being punished for taking an ability that will be NERFED and will be tuned around and then they have to put in the extra effort to swap over to a different covenant that’s losing all of the time and work they placed and one because blizzard fuck with that ability?

If you chose your covenant and two weeks after you put in all the effort they told you that the cosmetics that you liked and the storyline that you liked is going to be moved to a different covenant and that you have to regrind it in that covenant that you don’t like Simply because they want to try and make it a meaningful choice

The thing is, for it to be a meaningful choice there both needs to be consequences and rewards. If you remove either you immediately make the very concept flawed.
You remove the consequences by making the choice trivial, and allowing players to change it easily, and you remove the rewards by having a disconnect between the powerful abilities and the covenant you choose.

The thing is, you realize that those who really, really wnat ot optimize performance is a minority, but you also expect everyone else to conform to that, instead of simply having those few dedicated players have to work for what they want.

The story being moved is a false equivalency unless the abilities change completely midway. Every players can look at the abilities and know what they are. And seeing as so few of them are changes to several abilities it is easy to figure out whether it is good for Multi or Single target.


You say that players shouldnt feel punished for choosing an abil.ity that will be nerfed, but this has been the norm for classes as a whole. Everyone who takes more than a cursory look at them realizes that Fire mages can be decent at Single target, but their true forte is AoE. Those who look at MM can quickly see that they are not supposed to excel at mass AoE, and that is because they are preeminent in single target burst. Similar with classes that are good or not at PvP.


There is also the fact that you have no idea what the rest of the Soulbinds look like, or how the acquisition of abilities work. For all you know the class ability is the first thing you get when you change covenants, and changing them is piss easy, but specializing in one takes long. Or the class ability could be the final ability you only get after potentially weeks of grind. There is no way to know yet.

[Archmage Alodi]

If you think covenant abilities being locked is bad, you should really see some of those soulbind traits, those are even worse.

[Revamp Man]

The thing is, for it to be a meaningful choice there both needs to be consequences and rewards. If you remove either you immediately make the very concept flawed.
You remove the consequences by making the choice trivial, and allowing players to change it easily, and you remove the rewards by having a disconnect between the powerful abilities and the covenant you choose.

The thing is, you realize that those who really, really wnat ot optimize performance is a minority, but you also expect everyone else to conform to that, instead of simply having those few dedicated players have to work for what they want.

The story being moved is a false equivalency unless the abilities change completely midway. Every players can look at the abilities and know what they are. And seeing as so few of them are changes to several abilities it is easy to figure out whether it is good for Multi or Single target.


You say that players shouldnt feel punished for choosing an abil.ity that will be nerfed, but this has been the norm for classes as a whole. Everyone who takes more than a cursory look at them realizes that Fire mages can be decent at Single target, but their true forte is AoE. Those who look at MM can quickly see that they are not supposed to excel at mass AoE, and that is because they are preeminent in single target burst. Similar with classes that are good or not at PvP.


There is also the fact that you have no idea what the rest of the Soulbinds look like, or how the acquisition of abilities work. For all you know the class ability is the first thing you get when you change covenants, and changing them is piss easy, but specializing in one takes long. Or the class ability could be the final ability you only get after potentially weeks of grind. There is no way to know yet.

It is a meaningful choice and there are rewards and consequences that are not tied to player power in any extremely obvious way like covenant abilities

You have specific armor looks
you have specific storylines
you have specific mounts and pets
you have a specific covenant wide ability and soulbinds
Throughout the expansion you can expect to see more of those

That is meaningful deciding which storyline you go to that is meaningful and that has absolutely zero effect on your gameplay in a negative manner

But why should players who like to optimize their character be told that our choice won’t really matter because what we play the game for is subject to change based on how they balance it week by week

Players who only do it for cosmetics do not have a dog in this fight whether or not the covenant abilities are made to where you can swap them as easily as talent or not has absolutely zero impact on them

So you as a player who plays for cosmetics has absolutely zero interaction when it comes to the ability to swap talents back-and-forth in terms of the covenant ability

I’m not asking you to conform to it I am not asking the majority to conform to it because the majority is unaffected by it

If blizzard admits that the system doesn’t work and decides to make it 100% swappable what do you lose? Because personally I gain more enjoyment out of the system I gain the ability to choose a covenant and not worry about whether or not I made the right choice in order to maximize my character

This is a problem of the vast minority but it’s something that still affects people so why does it need to happen why do the abilities need to be locked?

- - - Updated - - -

If you think covenant abilities being locked is bad, you should really see some of those soulbind traits, those are even worse.

Soul vines are kind of man but they are easily swappable like talents within the covenant from what we’ve been told and they are all passive

I think right now and night Fais has the strongest ones but we also haven’t seen all of them from the other covenants and if they’re just passive that’s fine because they’re not really going to affect much

Care about the covenant abilities because the covenant abilities are being played off as a meaningful choice but it’s a choice that they’re purposely making a pain in the ass

I know that we don’t know anything about the system they could be extremely easy to swap but they don’t need to be tied to the covenant because they are such a big case of player power because there are some specs that seemingly interact with their covenant abilities really well

Paladin ability that we have for testing right now is amazing as a tank because it allows you to essentially make a death but which has been a huge issue for classes that are not death nights

[Gurahk]

If you think covenant abilities being locked is bad, you should really see some of those soulbind traits, those are even worse.

You mean the generic ones? The empty slots are for the class soulbinds, and those haven't been datamined yet.

[Nagawithlegs]

Both Org and SW seem to have gotten a tad bit of an update.

So are the Maghar getting a new hub or what?

[Sondrelk]

It is a meaningful choice and there are rewards and consequences that are not tied to player power in any extremely obvious way like covenant abilities

You have specific armor looks
you have specific storylines
you have specific mounts and pets
you have a specific covenant wide ability and soulbinds
Throughout the expansion you can expect to see more of those

That is meaningful deciding which storyline you go to that is meaningful and that has absolutely zero effect on your gameplay in a negative manner

But why should players who like to optimize their character be told that our choice won’t really matter because what we play the game for is subject to change based on how they balance it week by week

Players who only do it for cosmetics do not have a dog in this fight whether or not the covenant abilities are made to where you can swap them as easily as talent or not has absolutely zero impact on them

So you as a player who plays for cosmetics has absolutely zero interaction when it comes to the ability to swap talents back-and-forth in terms of the covenant ability

I’m not asking you to conform to it I am not asking the majority to conform to it because the majority is unaffected by it

If blizzard admits that the system doesn’t work and decides to make it 100% swappable what do you lose? Because personally I gain more enjoyment out of the system I gain the ability to choose a covenant and not worry about whether or not I made the right choice in order to maximize my character

This is a problem of the vast minority but it’s something that still affects people so why does it need to happen why do the abilities need to be locked?

Think of it this way.
During the time leading up to the first raid the playerbase will divide into the casuals and the hardcore.

For the casuals the reward for dedicated play is being able to have an amazing standing with whatever covenant they chose, they will know how to play it and can feel rewarded knowing that they have put loads of work into getting mounts and whatever.
The Hardcore players will be rewarded for the same time played by knowing which covenant to choose, they probably won't care about the story or cosmetic rewards, so their time sunk into a covenant will be lesser than the casuals at this point, which will eventually be caught up to by having to change covenants later in the story.

Without the system that this is shaking up to be you will potentially be asking hardcore players to be putting in LESS time that what the casuals will have to for the rewards they want, instead of the Hardcore players putting MORE into perfecting their class.
It is the same as why classes being good at different things means that Hardcore players are rewarded for playing MORE by having several classes, and casuazl players can still play LESS with their single class and maybe low geared alt.


And the ability to change the covenant easily does have repercussions for me as a casual player. Currently i want to choose the Night Fae, and i know some other people in my guild that will also choose Night Fae. There are also quite a few players who have similarly already decided their covenant based on the abilities or whatever. But by removing the consequences from the choice, or at the very elast lessening it, the choice all these people are making will not mean nearly as much, seeing as changing covenants solely for the ability will become the norm and likely happen constantly, meaning that the story is undercut.

So in essence, if the covenants become easily swappable then they also become interchangeable, and their unique identity is lost. I have said before that class identity lives and dies on the specific feeling of "I am glad i choose X, because now i can do Y". And the same holds true for covenants. And by removing the difficult choice this feeling is lost, because everyone can just easily swap to Venthyr for that short blink during M+ weeks where you want to avoid specific trash packs, or go for a covenant that gives better single target because the current boss is a Patchwerk fight.

[Raetary]

If you think covenant abilities being locked is bad, you should really see some of those soulbind traits, those are even worse.

??
Ignoring the conduits, most of the base traits are quite boring and useless.
There are only a very few that give you any sort of significant power boosts.

[Sondrelk]

Both Org and SW seem to have gotten a tad bit of an update.
[video]

Not going to complain, but i am a bit disappointed that they put all this effort into a single building instead of spreading it out a bit. Updating the old class trainer areas instead of forcing them all to share a single room.

[Hugnomo]

What are your guys hunches on which character may get a model update?
We've seen Sylvanas' (which I really enjoy, can't wait for Blizz to actually delve into her story from her perspective, instead of a cardboard cutout and plot device);
Which other characters do you think we might see get updated?
I was confused and disappointed by how they made Liadrin's sword and shield exactly like her hearthstone art, but then put her in a player tier set? Seems like they were going for her whole appearance but then didn't have time for it. Same with how they just updated Moira with player sets.

[Raetary]

What are your guys hunches on which character may get a model update?
We've seen Sylvanas' (which I really enjoy, can't wait for Blizz to actually delve into her story from her perspective, instead of a cardboard cutout and plot device);
Which other characters do you think we might see get updated?
I was confused and disappointed by how they made Liadrin's sword and shield exactly like her hearthstone art, but then put her in a player tier set? Seems like they were going for her whole appearance but then didn't have time for it. Same with how they just updated Moira with player sets.

I'm BEGGING for Shandris, but since i doubt she's gonna be relevant much now, doubt it's gonna happen.

[Syegfryed]

Gonna sleep now, better have customization updates

Both Org and SW seem to have gotten a tad bit of an update.

shit, Maghar in one expansion will already lose their only hub, just like that.

Those trainer halls seems rly cool overall, i hope they are building this to make it easier to allow every race be every class, it would make sense, since they would technically being different, so, their background would be different from the usual generic we had, and since the trainers are there, anybody could, well, train

[Sondrelk]

What are your guys hunches on which character may get a model update?
We've seen Sylvanas' (which I really enjoy, can't wait for Blizz to actually delve into her story from her perspective, instead of a cardboard cutout and plot device);
Which other characters do you think we might see get updated?
I was confused and disappointed by how they made Liadrin's sword and shield exactly like her hearthstone art, but then put her in a player tier set? Seems like they were going for her whole appearance but then didn't have time for it. Same with how they just updated Moira with player sets.

I would put a 50/50 on Nathanos getting a new model for his boss appearance. Especially if he is a boss in Castle Nathria.
On one hand being a boss usually entitles you to a new model, though on the other he already fits in perfectly with teh Revandreth Aesthetic.

[Syegfryed]

What are your guys hunches on which character may get a model update?

Freaking rokhan, dude is just getting scraps this expansion, he became a leader in a shit way and still don't have a proper model

[Raetary]

to allow every race be every class

Eaw
No thanks.

[EbaumsTipster]

What are your guys hunches on which character may get a model update?
We've seen Sylvanas' (which I really enjoy, can't wait for Blizz to actually delve into her story from her perspective, instead of a cardboard cutout and plot device);
Which other characters do you think we might see get updated?
I was confused and disappointed by how they made Liadrin's sword and shield exactly like her hearthstone art, but then put her in a player tier set? Seems like they were going for her whole appearance but then didn't have time for it. Same with how they just updated Moira with player sets.

Nathanos, Voss, Shandris, Vol'jin and maybe Rokhan.

[Raetary]

I would put a 50/50 on Nathanos getting a new model for his boss appearance. Especially if he is a boss in Castle Nathria.
On one hand being a boss usually entitles you to a new model, though on the other he already fits in perfectly with teh Revandreth Aesthetic.

I assume he's gonna get a lot more... RED

[Archmage Alodi]

You mean the generic ones? The empty slots are for the class soulbinds, and those haven't been datamined yet.

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/soulbind-calc/
Wouldn't call many of those "generic" tbh

- - - Updated - - -

??
Ignoring the conduits, most of the base traits are quite boring and useless.
There are only a very few that give you any sort of significant power boosts.

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/spel.../ultimate-form
Something like this could be really good for pvp.
They seem to be more on defensive and utility side, but they are not useless at all.

[Gurahk]

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/soulbind-calc/
Wouldn't call many of those "generic" tbh

Generic as in not class/spec specific.

[Hugnomo]

I'm BEGGING for Shandris, but since i doubt she's gonna be relevant much now, doubt it's gonna happen.

I would put a 50/50 on Nathanos getting a new model for his boss appearance. Especially if he is a boss in Castle Nathria.
On one hand being a boss usually entitles you to a new model, though on the other he already fits in perfectly with teh Revandreth Aesthetic.

Freaking rokhan, dude is just getting scraps this expansion, he became a leader in a shit way and still don't have a proper model

Nathanos, Voss, Shandris, Vol'jin and maybe Rokhan.

Thanks for the replies! And I agree completely. I had forgotten about it, but like Moira and Liadrin, Shandris, Voss and Rokhan have also been "updated" with just player gear. I think they are excellent candidates for a unique model, as Blizz has already showed that they wanted them to at least look current since they were so present in current events.
As for Nathanos, yeah I can see it, but I do agree that his visual themes already fit perfectly in Revendreth. I was thinking if he'd be alive or dead in the shadowlands (the idea of him being killed in the book), but I guess alive? If he were dead he'd probably be in the Maw right? But maybe he's in revendreth working on a scheme? We know Denathrius is a villain and working with the jailer.

Also, Vol'jin is definitely gonna get a new model. According to the narrative that's going on in Ardenweald and The Other Side.

[arandomuser]

josh from method had a good take on this, and i dont even like his stream, but hes 100% right IMO