Will Torghast become boring fast?

[FelPlague]

well you are both kinda right and wrong.

yes mmorpgs are all about killing mobs - but i would compare thorgast to just a bit longer Maw of Souls ap farm .

yes corridors will be different but at the end of day corridors are corridors - mobs are mobs - you will be runing the same place week after week till you puke from boredom .

the thing is for different people that "border of boredom " will come sooner or later.

imo for most it will come extremly fast because most of WoW playerbase nowadays cant deal with stuff that takes 2-3 hours non stop - they are just to old for it

i dont doubt thought that streamers will defend this type of content till death because its perfect streaming material for them - and thus $$$$$$ making.

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and thats exackly what im talking about.

thats why non-stoppable repeatable content just wont work for playerbase in 2020.

f.... i have super easy example - imagine if your mythic raid didnt save you for trash/boss kills - only each time you go in there you have to rekill literaly everything - how long will you last rekilling the same stuff over and over again - and now imagine if you could loot it multiple times a week ? lockouts are there for a reason

Except they arnt all corridoors, they are coridoors, they are open expanses, they are stone pillars within an abyss, and as time passes they will be able to add in more, look to diablo 3, there is limited backgrounds and such, all its rift system is is combat, and its what saved diablo 3, making a game that was destined to die, still decently played 6 years later.

also no it really is not perfect streaming material.
perfect streaming material is ones that you can interact with chat and fellow players, while also doing something that people enjoy watching, which well if people enjoy torghast, they will enjoy watching, if people dont, then well they wont watch.

also you dont have to spend 2-3 hours in torghast... you can spend 30 minutes then end.

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Sounds shitty. Doing the assault in 8. 3 was what killed this patch for me. It's so trivial and boring.

You basically just go into the maw and kill mobs, and as you kill mobs there the jailer will notice you and start sending units to chase you down, your limited to how often you can go to the maw, simply by at what point you are banished by too powerful mobs.

runs are not "capped" they are how much you can earn in the maw.

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Oh it probably will. Especially if you can’t pause your runs and come back later.

I don’t want to get through, say, ten floors and then have to rush out to do some irl bullshit only to be forced to start a fresh run, costing me whatever limited resource is required to enter.

Imo you should be allowed run one per week and you can leave and rejoin that run as often as you like.

Horrific visions demand 30 minutes of uninterrupted time. They’re a fucking nightmare and they’re boring to boot.

1. what end game content in the game can you just go "oh brb" then afk for 20 mins?
2. there will be many floors you can just afk with no problem like the shop floors (about every 4 floors currently)
3. well then plan ahead of time "oh i need to go out to do something, so when i get to the next shop i will stop there and do it"
4. 1 run per week is stupid, and being able to leave and rejoin sounds like it owuld not work with dying
5. if you cant dedicate yourself to only 30 mins, idk what you get done in wow. M+, raids, even RBG's all take upwards of 30 mins.

[Stormwolf64]

For Christ sake people it is the very beginning of this. They even said they are showing this MUCH earlier then normal to get feedback and testing.

And you believe it, you gullible little bastard

[Huggykaze]

Bad idea, every rogue-lite that has tried to do this just ends up reworking the scalars and making it much more subtle.

Might be why most games in my library haven't seen more than 6h of playtime.

The unfortunate truth is that not everyone is playing their class to its fullest (Read: Optimal) bonuses and stats. You can, of course, apply different scalars to weaker stats and weaker bonuses (Which is what should happen if they add this system) - but this still kind of defeats the purpose of getting stronger, y'know? It has to be a very fickle system where you balance it between time taken to kill things, avoiding mechanics, and how survivable you are.

That said, I do agree (If Torghast doesn't do it currently) that they should have some amount of subtle balancing to your choices and current floor. (FWIW I'm fairly ignorant to how the system wholly works, I just know the jist of it all.)
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I agree that it can't just get harder without making you feel more powerful at the same time, but I think all the pick-ups fulfill this purpose quite well. As for the players who don't play their class to the fullest - as they progress through the tower they will keep learning about potential combos, they will keep learning about the best pick-ups, talents etc. Obviously their progress will be slower than better players', but... it's fine. The curve can be shifted at some point to slow down at earlier floors and keep up the pace at higher ones. This way less good players will still be able to climb the tower even if they hit their skill cap, but the good players will keep getting challenged.

The alternative is adding checkpoints, but these will kill the farming element or be ignored by most of the player base in the name of more efficient grind.

[Dracullus]

And you believe it, you gullible little bastard

So... you think they will launch Torghast with missing textures, each floor geting easier instead of harder and only for 4 classes?

Shiting on Blizz that Alpha isn't in complete state two weeks after launch is as much stupid as saying "don't worry, it will get better" instead of criticizing when Alpha/Beta is heading in wrong direction.

[Craaazyyy]

lol alright sure thing koo koo lummy.
Rifts did not totally make a game that had a dead playbase revive in such a regrow it sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and has kept the game alive for another six fucking years.

it wasn't rifts that revived the game and kept it alive. It was the fact that it was a "new" game from Blizzard. Basically Blizzard logo did it. Not rifts or anything that was in Reaper of Souls. D3 is a bad fucking joke of a game. It's absolutely awful. Just because some stupid Blizzard fanboys are still playing it doesn't change that

[kamuimac]

Might be why most games in my library haven't seen more than 6h of playtime.



I agree that it can't just get harder without making you feel more powerful at the same time, but I think all the pick-ups fulfill this purpose quite well. As for the players who don't play their class to the fullest - as they progress through the tower they will keep learning about potential combos, they will keep learning about the best pick-ups, talents etc. Obviously their progress will be slower than better players', but... it's fine. The curve can be shifted at some point to slow down at earlier floors and keep up the pace at higher ones. This way less good players will still be able to climb the tower even if they hit their skill cap, but the good players will keep getting challenged.

The alternative is adding checkpoints, but these will kill the farming element or be ignored by most of the player base in the name of more efficient grind.

nah . we already know from alphatests that unlike visions it will be preferable to 5 man them - so it will be bis comps or gtfo in lfg tool . and there is no way that blizard can properly tune it with how crazy scaling in there is .

it will be one huge mess when it releases. and maybe in 9.2 or 9.3 they will tune it properly after N-iterations of buffs/nerfs.

[Stormwolf64]

So... you think they will launch Torghast with missing textures, each floor geting easier instead of harder and only for 4 classes?

Shiting on Blizz that Alpha isn't in complete state two weeks after launch is as much stupid as saying "don't worry, it will get better" instead of criticizing when Alpha/Beta is heading in wrong direction.

I think they will do what they always do. Say they want to receive feedback and make changes where it's needed, yet not reading feedback and making no changes. This has been the Blizzard way from time immemorial.

[Carmion]

EVERY content will become boring quickly, if you just spam it enough. No illusions here.

Will surely be fun for some time, but once the novelty wears off and the routine to farm your fotm cap of whatever you need sets in, it will become boring.

This is not criticism, that is just the way this works. And nothing Blizzard can prevent.

[PenguinChan]

I think they will do what they always do. Say they want to receive feedback and make changes where it's needed, yet not reading feedback and making no changes. This has been the Blizzard way from time immemorial.

Blizzard is weird, because we know for a fact they do read and listen to what we're saying but don't always enact on it - or they wait (Sometimes purposefully so) until later patches (Most notable x.2 or x.3 / x.3.5 patches) to fix things that are wrong with the systems in place. Which is of course, annoying.

[Dracullus]

I think they will do what they always do. Say they want to receive feedback and make changes where it's needed, yet not reading feedback and making no changes. This has been the Blizzard way from time immemorial.

They literally listen to feedback and made change less than week ago when they extended XP buff to pre-patch. But I don't want start this game when I give examples and you disregard all cause they don't affect you or "who gives a shit".

[Kokolums]

I don't think it'll get boring at all. Its a roguelike/lite experience, which means every run will be different. Look at games like FTL or Slay the Spire. They've had few changes over the years and are still widely played. They don't seem to get overly boring to most players.

That's part of the problem. People can get this game style elsewhere. They can get a version of Torghast in Diablo 3 except Diablo 3 is more fun and has better graphics than WoW and you can run rifts nonstop. Anyone that loves Torghast would just play Diablo 3 instead.

[Stormwolf64]

They literally listen to feedback and made change less than week ago when they extended XP buff to pre-patch. But I don't want start this game when I give examples and you disregard all cause they don't affect you or "who gives a shit".

I'm not talking about your last weeks patch or whatever.

[Kolvarg]

The actual gameplay seems to be up there by the feedback so far. Sure, it might become boring eventually, much like any piece of repeatable content, but this one actually has the mechanics to keep interesting longer, certainly more than M+ imho.

Remains to be seen whether its reward system is actually good and reinforces that good gameplay or not. If it has a reward system similar to, let's say, Warfronts, it probably won't be received all that well.

[Kokolums]

The actual gameplay seems to be up there by the feedback so far. Sure, it might become boring eventually, much like any piece of repeatable content, but this one actually has the mechanics to keep interesting longer, certainly more than M+ imho.

Remains to be seen whether its reward system is actually good and reinforces that good gameplay or not. If it has a reward system similar to, let's say, Warfronts, it probably won't be received all that well.

That's horrible game design tho. When WoW was growing like a weed, it offered an incredible in-game community which acted like a positive feedback loop and kept drawing in more players. They destroyed in the in-game community in favor of trying to provide complicated mechanics and systems and .... it just doesn't work. its bad. very bad. everyone left in droves. It must be pointed out because people forget that WoW shouldn't ever be designed this way.

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killing mobs is the entire game, if you dont enjoy the combat well then... what is there for you to do?

the core appeal of wow was the in game community, not killing mobs. i mean youre right. they fucked the in game community and now its just about killing mobs. and that sucks.

[Fight4Fun]

1) No Ladder
2) No universal ground to compare your results to others (every spec tuned in own way)

These 2 major problems, Torghast will be abandoned in a month, after everyone get played with it.

[blankfaced]

It needs more variety than islands offer right now. If they don't manage that, then yes. I can already see the Torghast.....more like Snorefest posts.

[FelPlague]

the core appeal of wow was the in game community, not killing mobs. i mean youre right. they fucked the in game community and now its just about killing mobs. and that sucks.

that is 100% not true at all, a games main appeal is the game, the community is a secondary part, if that was true why would anyone play something other then something like second life where the entire game is literally JUST community.
wow is a video game first, a community second, always has been.
the world is full of mobs to kill, quests to complete, and stuff to grind, ever since vanilla there has only been a few things that enforce "community" if the core appeal of wow was the ingame community they would not put the effort into all that, and just have it a bunch of chat rooms.

[kamuimac]

that is 100% not true at all, a games main appeal is the game, the community is a secondary part, if that was true why would anyone play something other then something like second life where the entire game is literally JUST community.
wow is a video game first, a community second, always has been.
the world is full of mobs to kill, quests to complete, and stuff to grind, ever since vanilla there has only been a few things that enforce "community" if the core appeal of wow was the ingame community they would not put the effort into all that, and just have it a bunch of chat rooms.

i gotta disagree with that

strongly

in 2004-2005 mmorpgs were for a lot of people - specificaly geeks a facebook of that time - thats where people without friends irl had found a way to "meet " other people and make social ties. thats why there was a point in time between 2000-2010 when mmorpgs were popular.

what changed is that those people grown up and realised that they dont need wow for that - they found their social ties outsside of game

wow problem and mmorpg problem in general is that younger generation already found other sources for that - whether its facebook , instagram , tiktok fortnite or whatever else mmorpgs were not needed for it anymore

thats why so many people play guildless , thats why so many people only pug - because nowadays virtual community is irrelevant

why do you think all other mmorpg put in advance AI into game so people could just go into instance/quest with AI ? because truth is a lot of people dont want to play with other people anymore because in 2020 they dont need those social ties.

[Kolvarg]

That's horrible game design tho. (...) it just doesn't work. its bad. very bad. everyone left in droves. It must be pointed out because people forget that WoW shouldn't ever be designed this way.

First of all: People didn't leave WoW in droves. People have been leaving WoW ever since it first came out, the difference is for the first few years there were simply a LOT more people trying it out for the first time when it was new, exciting and essentially famous even amongst non-gamers.

Even if that was the case, people didn't just suddenly leave. The growth first started stagnating in WotLK, and it has been in decline ever since Cata. It's almost been 10 years since Cata. By now, WoW has been declining for longer than it was in its growth and peak (Vanilla -> WotLK = 6 years), and it still is essentially the most popular MMO, fairly likely to be the most played still.


Second point: Even if people had left in droves, I'm not convinced it was because WoW started being designed for loot rather than community. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that WoW is now worse when it comes to its community and social aspects, but I very much doubt that subscriptions would be higher if WoW had stayed more focused on community instead of gameplay and rewards.

Ultimately, the social aspects might have been a broad appeal at start, when the average player was not used to playing online, much less in huge persistant worlds with hundreds/thousands of other players. Hell, for many players WoW might have been their first online multiplayer game, especially if you exclude LAN games. It was also a time where social networks weren't truly a thing, certainly not main stream. I don't think in today's age it would work nearly as well, and the decline is only natural.

There are hundreds of possible reasons for people leaving the game, and design changes are only one of them, especially if you are considering certain specific changes. I can't genuinely believe the majority of people who left wouldn't have done so if the devs had done X or Y differently. I would argue the subscription model + having to buy every expansion in order to get to the latest + having to level up from the start to reach the "real game" played a far bigger role in WoW's decline than any design philosophy/focus shift.


Third point: Even if people had left in droves, and it was because WoW started being designed for gameplay and rewards instead of community, changing it back wouldn't bring people back. It's just not a problem that can be fixed anymore. Most of the people who left would have found other games/communities by now. This is the game now, and simply changing it back would very likely do more harm than good (drive away the existing playerbase without actually bringing new/old players to replace them).


Fourth point: You may not like it. You can even claim it's not faithful to the original design/intent of Vanilla WoW. But you can't just state it's horrible game design. It objectively isn't. The games that function on communities are the exception, not the norm. Gameplay and rewards for said gameplay is the core of nearly any game and very standard game design, whether you personally like it or not.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

1) No Ladder
2) No universal ground to compare your results to others (every spec tuned in own way)

These 2 major problems, Torghast will be abandoned in a month, after everyone get played with it.

You can log it bro and prove how mazin you are with what color your number is in a spreadsheet on a 3rd party website. WoW 2020 game design! /s