Covenants abilities should have been new talents rows

[Laughingjack]

Yeah, correct, we play the game for it to be enjoyable. Whatever weird psychological issue that makes you view video games as having a purpose of anything other than enjoyment certainly explains your bizarre, condescending opinions.

I didn't say anything about "permanent". You keep using that word. I've never said anything should be permanent. I said it should be meaningful, and meaningful means thirty seconds later I can't switch back. It is delusional to pretend that a hot-swappable choice is a meaningful choice.



Racials were quite simple and it was very easy to objectively point to ones which were better basically 99% of the time. That won't be possible with covenants, just as it should not be possible with classes, and ideally specs too. Some may be better for some types of content and some may be better for certain encounters, but that's not the same as one choice being objectively better 100% of the time.

Also, racials were not the main problem with faction balance. More people like horde thematically, especially after they got BEs.

Focusing on your second paragraph... how will covenants not be very easy to see what ones are the best for specific content ? Do you really think simply obfuscating it will hide it from a community that often knows more about the games balance then blizzard does?

You are not suggesting that covenants will be balanced as tightly as current racials that doesn't seem possible.

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That was never the point, your point was that "Weekly capped resource that effects player power is bad" and i pointed right fucking to you that it has been a thing since tbc, back when "the game was good"

And yes, i am not moving goal posts, for some reason you are the most flippity floppity person ever, at points you change your opinions on a whime, and now here you are saying that people cant have omfg multiple opinions on multiple subjects!

cosmetics have been tied to player power choices since vanilla with races, factions, talents, specs, classes, and gear. get over it.

Alright that wasn't really my point but it is something I agree with. Again though there are stark differences between having a singular item or maybe two obtainable over months and a system that cripples the entire game beyond the lower difficulties you seem to know.

Have you ever considered how harmful the choice of these minor things are you disregard off hand? You bring up race... in MoP when racials where at their worst in terms of power gain the alliance end game was devastated from the top players abandoning it that even now its rare that the entire faction can field enough guilds to complete hall of fame. I know I had the annoying experience of ditching a full stable of level capped characters when the last raiding guild in my time zone closed.

I honestly don't care what you do in game. I would prefer to mitigate another train wreck that is going to slam into the content I enjoy however. I am just tired of this desire to keep trying terribly flawed systems over and over again... AP, Azerite, essences. corruption all of these systems get binned immediately due to how poorly they are conceived but we just keep getting more.

I just grow weary of things that should be cosmetic choices negatively effecting harder difficulties.

[NineSpine]

Focusing on your second paragraph... how will covenants not be very easy to see what ones are the best for specific content ? Do you really think simply obfuscating it will hide it from a community that often knows more about the games balance then blizzard does?

You are not suggesting that covenants will be balanced as tightly as current racials that doesn't seem possible.

Covenants are full kits including all of the following:
At least three soulbinds
One generic ability
One class ability
Exclusive legendaries
And more...

That's a lot of stuff, way more than a series of racials which are almost all simple passive bonuses. With that much variation and complexity, it's extremely unlikely that any given covenant will be better 100% of the time compared to another covenant in all content. Will some potentially be, on net, better in certain specific situations? I fucking hope so.

The problem here is that you have this weird view of "balance" like its some kind of binary where something is either balanced or not balanced, which indicates a toxic view that "balance" is only when everyone is equally good at everything in every situation. That's homogenization, and a TERRIBLE way to balance things.

[Laughingjack]

Covenants are full kits including all of the following:
At least three soulbinds
One generic ability
One class ability
Exclusive legendaries
And more...

That's a lot of stuff, way more than a series of racials which are almost all simple passive bonuses. With that much variation and complexity, it's extremely unlikely that any given covenant will be better 100% of the time compared to another covenant in all content. Will some potentially be, on net, better in certain specific situations? I fucking hope so.

The problem here is that you have this weird view of "balance" like its some kind of binary where something is either balanced or not balanced, which indicates a toxic view that "balance" is only when everyone is equally good at everything in every situation. That's homogenization, and a TERRIBLE way to balance things.

The problem isn't one covenant being better 100% of the time...that would actually solve my issue with the system. The thing I am worried about is how likely there is to be a "You want to full clear mythic raiding" covenant" a " you want to push past 2.1k pvp rating covenant", and a "You want to run a mythic + 20" covenant and hell even a " You want to sell carries in Torghast covenant".

[NineSpine]

Alright that wasn't really my point but it is something I agree with. Again though there are stark differences between having a singular item or maybe two obtainable over months and a system that cripples the entire game beyond the lower difficulties you seem to know.

Have you ever considered how harmful the choice of these minor things are you disregard off hand? You bring up race... in MoP when racials where at their worst in terms of power gain the alliance end game was devastated from the top players abandoning it that even now its rare that the entire faction can field enough guilds to complete hall of fame. I know I had the annoying experience of ditching a full stable of level capped characters when the last raiding guild in my time zone closed.

I honestly don't care what you do in game. I would prefer to mitigate another train wreck that is going to slam into the content I enjoy however. I am just tired of this desire to keep trying terribly flawed systems over and over again... AP, Azerite, essences. corruption all of these systems get binned immediately due to how poorly they are conceived but we just keep getting more.

I just grow weary of things that should be cosmetic choices negatively effecting harder difficulties.

None of us give a fuck what the top 0.2% of players do, at all. I don't know why you have so much trouble understanding that. There are more players whose subs are accidentally left on and never play the game than there are top tier players who you think the rest of us should organize the entire game around.

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The problem isn't one covenant being better 100% of the time...that would actually solve my issue with the system. The thing I am worried about is how likely there is to be a "You want to full clear mythic raiding" covenant" a " you want to push past 2.1k pvp rating covenant", and a "You want to run a mythic + 20" covenant and hell even a " You want to sell carries in Torghast covenant".

Yeah, and that's an asinine, baseless fear that has no grounding in reality whatsoever. Demanding the game be organized around your irrational nonsense is not reasonable.

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The reality here, whether you want to accept it or not, is that you have a psychological illness, a form of OCD that you are applying to this game. The way you are behaving would be considered a problem in ANY OTHER PLACE. If you treated your job like this, throwing a hissy fit that if the company doesn't give you the exact right computer and the exact right materials for every tiny thing the building is going to burn down and your job will no longer function, you would be fired. You have a serious, serious problem and you should speak to someone about it.

[Laughingjack]

None of us give a fuck what the top 0.2% of players do, at all. I don't know why you have so much trouble understanding that. There are more players whose subs are accidentally left on and never play the game than there are top tier players who you think the rest of us should organize the entire game around.

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Yeah, and that's an asinine, baseless fear that has no grounding in reality whatsoever. Demanding the game be organized around your irrational nonsense is not reasonable.

I in turn do not honestly care what the average lfr,normal, or none exceptional heroic raider does. That doesn't mean I embrace changes that I know will do harm to what I enjoy.

I have no idea what wow's population looks like. I simply know that when the mythic raiding guilds are gone usually the server bereft of them dies. Everything is interconnected more then I would prefer myself.

[NineSpine]

I in turn do not honestly care what the average lfr,normal, or none exceptional heroic raider does. That doesn't mean I embrace changes that I know will do harm to what I enjoy.

I have no idea what wow's population looks like. I simply know that when the mythic raiding guilds are gone usually the server bereft of them dies. Everything is interconnected more then I would prefer myself.

Again, this is more delusion and evidence of your psychological issues. The presence of mythic raiding guilds is MEANINGLESS. Nobody cares about you. You are not the center of the wow universe. You don't matter. Jesus Christ, your insane delusions of grandeur are bizarre.

[Laughingjack]

Again, this is more delusion and evidence of your psychological issues. The presence of mythic raiding guilds is MEANINGLESS. Nobody cares about you. You are not the center of the wow universe. You don't matter. Jesus Christ, your insane delusions of grandeur are bizarre.

Tell me... is there a difference in terms of how much population you see on a server with many raid guilds and a server with none...? I know cross realm and sharding helps hide this issue and if you don't do any raiding I can believe you never noticed but the difference is stark even when it comes to completing heroic.

[NineSpine]

Tell me... is there a difference in terms of how much population you see on a server with many raid guilds and a server with none...? I know cross realm and sharding helps hide this issue and if you don't do any raiding I can believe you never noticed but the difference is stark even when it comes to completing heroic.

Nobody. Cares. About. You. And. The. Seven. Other. People. Who. Mythic. Raid.

If you have any skill at the game whatsoever, you will be able to do mythic, pvp, and m+ with whatever covenant you choose. Get over it, seek help.

[Laughingjack]

Nobody. Cares. About. You. And. The. Seven. Other. People. Who. Mythic. Raid.

If you have any skill at the game whatsoever, you will be able to do mythic, pvp, and m+ with whatever covenant you choose. Get over it, seek help.

You won't if you remain on a server without players established in mythic raiding you won't. Your idea that no matter what you do it never effects anyone else in a mmo is curious...

Do you never wonder about things like AH prices or the economy in general? The types of guilds you have and the different progression paths? I can't really imagine playing a mmo and just not noticing the other people around me or not interacting with them. Then again im not the one starved for meaningful choices maybe ive just always got them from the people I interact with.

[NineSpine]

You won't if you remain on a server without players established in mythic raiding you won't. Your idea that no matter what you do it never effects anyone else in a mmo is curious...

Do you never wonder about things like AH prices or the economy in general? The types of guilds you have and the different progression paths? I can't really imagine playing a mmo and just not noticing the other people around me or not interacting with them. Then again im not the one starved for meaningful choices maybe ive just always got them from the people I interact with.

You are acting like the only other people on the server are in competitive mythic guilds. Stop doubling down on your delusion.

[Laughingjack]

You are acting like the only other people on the server are in competitive mythic guilds. Stop doubling down on your delusion.

I'm not I am just pointing out the knock on effects of losing the top end of the player base. No section of wow stands alone beyond those who never wish to do anything beyond lfr and even then they have to chose to never interact with anyone.

I am trying to understand your views they just don't really make sense to me.

[NineSpine]

I'm not I am just pointing out the knock on effects of losing the top end of the player base. No section of wow stands alone beyond those who never wish to do anything beyond lfr and even then they have to chose to never interact with anyone.

I am trying to understand your views they just don't really make sense to me.

My view is that meaningful choice is fun and whether that impacts some neurotic, psychologically damaged portion of players who pretend they are in Method doesn't matter to me. In fact, since that group is the most toxic, terrible, worthless people that play the game, and do nothing but ruin the game for everyone else, I'll be glad if they fuck off to some other game.

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You literally scoffed at the idea that some people play the game for it to be enjoyable, so please don't act surprised that the rest of us consider you toxic. You literally have a problem with the game being fun. You find that to be a NEGATIVE thing.

[Rageadon]

I do agree with you, when the xpack is over and we get the new one, people will complain that their class wont work and it feels clunky on the new xpack..

"but the new system looks promesing and it wont be like the previous ones!!"

Artifact wep, Azarite armour and covenant its the same. And its cheap

[NineSpine]

I do agree with you, when the xpack is over and we get the new one, people will complain that their class wont work and it feels clunky on the new xpack..

"but the new system looks promesing and it wont be like the previous ones!!"

Artifact wep, Azarite armour and covenant its the same. And its cheap

This is nothing like those systems.

I don't like rental power systems in general, but this iteration of the idea is significantly different than the others.

[Laughingjack]

My view is that meaningful choice is fun and whether that impacts some neurotic, psychologically damaged portion of players who pretend they are in Method doesn't matter to me. In fact, since that group is the most toxic, terrible, worthless people that play the game, and do nothing but ruin the game for everyone else, I'll be glad if they fuck off to some other game.

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You literally scoffed at the idea that some people play the game for it to be enjoyable, so please don't act surprised that the rest of us consider you toxic. You literally have a problem with the game being fun. You find that to be a NEGATIVE thing.

I scuffed at the idea of people using "Fun" as a reason onto itself. It shows they either can't explain or honestly don't know what it is they find enjoyable or interesting in the idea it just shows something about the concept appeals to them.

Does every player who enjoys harder content need to model themselves after method? To be honest I don't think this system will effect method they will just fully gear one of each covenant on four alts then funnel loot to the most powerful for that class and spec. No sadly it is the casuals who will be most harmed by this system and they will be the ones forced to chose between what part of their end game they wish to hinder.

[NineSpine]

I scuffed at the idea of people using "Fun" as a reason onto itself. It shows they either can't explain or honestly don't know what it is they find enjoyable or interesting in the idea it just shows something about the concept appeals to them.

Does every player who enjoys harder content need to model themselves after method? To be honest I don't think this system will effect method they will just fully gear one of each covenant on four alts then funnel loot to the most powerful for that class and spec. No sadly it is the casuals who will be most harmed by this system and they will be the ones forced to chose between what part of their end game they wish to hinder.

People running mythics aren't casual.

The vast majority of people will pick the covenant they choose, move forward, and be find. A handful of people with serious psychological issues will find themselves completely crippled by having to make a choice and will blame their bad gameplay on covenants. That's all that will happen.

Most normal, functioning adults will just use the system as it is obviously designed. They will set their soulbinds up to accommodate the different types of content they do and then they will play that content.

[FlubberPuddy]

I do agree with you, when the xpack is over and we get the new one, people will complain that their class wont work and it feels clunky on the new xpack..

"but the new system looks promesing and it wont be like the previous ones!!"

Artifact wep, Azarite armour and covenant its the same. And its cheap

Classes in the alpha do not need covenant abilities to feel "complete" unlike when Artifact Wep and Azerite Traits existed.

[Laughingjack]

People running mythics aren't casual.

The vast majority of people will pick the covenant they choose, move forward, and be find. A handful of people with serious psychological issues will find themselves completely crippled by having to make a choice and will blame their bad gameplay on covenants. That's all that will happen.

Most normal, functioning adults will just use the system as it is obviously designed. They will set their soulbinds up to accommodate the different types of content they do and then they will play that content.

Why isn't a person playing six hour a week clearing mythic a casual but a person playing 40 clearing only lfr one?

I mean... I know the wow community... the vast majority is going to pick the covenant method tells them to and the rest will be based on cosmetics.

[NineSpine]

Why isn't a person playing six hour a week clearing mythic a casual but a person playing 40 clearing only lfr one?

I mean... I know the wow community... the vast majority is going to pick the covenant method tells them to and the rest will be based on cosmetics.

The vast majority are going to pick whatever they want. Your belief that the community is defined by other people like you is part of your psychological problems. You can't see outside your own head for even two seconds.

I'm not even going to entertain the idea that mythic raiders are the real casuals. I've never encountered someone as self-obsessed and delusional as you.

[Laughingjack]

The vast majority are going to pick whatever they want. Your belief that the community is defined by other people like you is part of your psychological problems. You can't see outside your own head for even two seconds.

I'm not even going to entertain the idea that mythic raiders are the real casuals. I've never encountered someone as self-obsessed and delusional as you.

Except they don't...for the same reason why most people don't pick essences or talents they want or often what would help them the most. They pick what the raid guide tells them to pick.

I don't know what playerbase your talking about but it isn't wow's.

I'm simply pointing out that the level of difficulty you enjoy doesn't really relate to how much you play.