Now that we have a lot more info on Shadowlands are you feeling better about it?

[Serenais]

I am not letting myself be hyped. Regardless of the content in question.
Last time I did that, it was WoD announcement. I am not interested in loads of disappointement again.

[Amariw]

+ PvP vendors are back
+ Torghast looks promising


- No big classes changes
- Abilities still locked behind Azerite-like mindless grind
- Ap coming back

Still not convinced.

About the same. Also:

Abilities being part of a difficult to change choice meaning you might gimp yourself by accident.

Pvp vendors might be back, but no indication they'll be pvp stats or scaling, so m+ likely to still be the best way to gear quickly.
This leaves battlegrounds useless (you wont bg when you're new to not get crushed by geared people, and you won't bg when you're geared from m+ cuzz you won't need to anymore, leaving it only for people who love pvp but don't mind being left behind). Just bring back pvp stats and scaling honestly. There wasn't any good reason to remove it.

Afflocks still have no pvp instant soul shard spender in case of being trained by melee, so either malefic rupture is op and locks are boringly strong or you can't cast it and affliction is useless. Bring back weaker but instant spenders like instant seed honor talent from legion, it wasn't even that strong,just gave you options.

Overall seems like pvp reward system and affliction locks design will stay shit. Pve and torghast look more promising, affliction actually having decent aoe and rotation included.

My guess is it will be better then bfa but worse then it easily could and should have been.

[Lollis]

this. the aoe change just shows me that they're still being whipped and lashed by their corporate masters so numbers can be padded for those shareholder numbers

You know, people keep saying this shit about the aoe change and completely neglect that there has been a target cap on aoe for longer than there hasn't been one.

We were annoyed when the target cap first got added in TBC. The cap was increased during MoP and then removed in Legion and now they are adding a cap again in Shadowlands. We got over it the first time around, I'm sure we'll manage this time too.

[Demithio]

Not sure I'm one to be answering this since I'm not part of the "new crowd". However, I have yet to see anything that really impresses me from a 'new WoW' perspective.

[Neuroticaine]

There's a conspiracy theory going around that whenever any change happens that makes the pace of the game slower, whether it's combat pace changes, any new grinds, or heaven forbid time gates that it's nothing more than a shallow attempt to "milk the ignorant players who don't realize the company doesn't care anymore and just wants to milk metrics."

The change in combat pace will be so small in the grand scheme of things that there's likely going to be a net difference close to zero. The AoE changes have been targeted so far, largely balancing melee and casters (not always the case with some changes, but a great deal of them). It will help balance group compositions for things like mythics. No one stacks raids for trash damage, so unless every boss is an AoE fest, it makes no difference there either.

[cparle87]

The change in combat pace will be so small in the grand scheme of things that there's likely going to be a net difference close to zero. The AoE changes have been targeted so far, largely balancing melee and casters (not always the case with some changes, but a great deal of them). It will help balance group compositions for things like mythics. No one stacks raids for trash damage, so unless every boss is an AoE fest, it makes no difference there either.

I know it's a small thing but the forums have been inundated with the sky is falling, evil Blizz and their MUAs, and conspiracy theories.

[Soluna]

So far we have a rehashed Netherlight Crucible (soulbinds), rehashed AP (anima), rehashed Azerite traits (covenants), rehashed Horrific Visions (torghast, assuming you'll have to farm keys somehow), and rehashed Mission Tables ("adventures!") - all systems that I loathe that they are trying to say they can make work this time around. I'm not impressed by anything but the art to say the least.

I miss simplicity in class design. Now you only reach your final design after going through 4 or 5 separate systems tacked on top of each other - talents, honor talents, soulbinds, covenants, and legendaries.

Blizzard has a very hard time letting go of costs they sunk into bad systems, so they bring them back 3 or 4 times before finally giving up.

And when Wotlk, Cata, MoP came out we had rehashed raids, rehashed dailies, rehashed legendaries, rehashed everything. If you think that things like soulbinds, covenants and torghast are anything like the things you just compared them to, you are stupid. I'd suggest you just let go of this game, because you are just sick of every aspect of it.

If you are gonna complain, complain about something that makes sense, like I don't know, most of the classes feeling a lot worse after losing even their azerite traits/essences? And even then, nothing is certain, as the legendaries could be game changing, especially now that you can target what you want to get, so they don't have to consider toning down certain legendaries as much, so that people won't feel fucked if they were unlucky (aka legion legendaries).

[ErrandRunner]

I know it's a small thing but the forums have been inundated with the sky is falling, evil Blizz and their MUAs, and conspiracy theories.

If Blizzard was just honest and released sub numbers, people wouldn't go on about Blizzard's love of MAUs as much as they do. Less deceit and more transparency would go a long way.

[kamuimac]

seems like expansion to skip and play FF 14 and legacy TBC when it comes out.

they are changing so many things that it wont feel like wow we know anymore.

guess prophecy came correct - blizzard are the ones who will kill WoW.

[Great Destiny Man]

If Blizzard was just honest and released sub numbers, people wouldn't go on about Blizzard's love of MAUs as much as they do. Less deceit and more transparency would go a long way.

I don't know why people are obsessed by sub numbers when it's quite obvious the metric doesn't carry the same weight in modern times than it used to. This is asking for transparency for the sake of transparency.

[ErrandRunner]

I don't know why people are obsessed by sub numbers when it's quite obvious the metric doesn't carry the same weight in modern times than it used to. This is asking for transparency for the sake of transparency.

It's easier to manipulate data reflecting MAUs than it is to do the same for sub numbers. Check mate.

[Great Destiny Man]

It's easier to manipulate data reflecting MAUs than it is to do the same for sub numbers. Check mate.

Sub numbers can also be manipulated if required. None of which changes the fact that subs are a lot weaker as a metric even without manipulation.

[FelPlague]

I don't know why people are obsessed by sub numbers when it's quite obvious the metric doesn't carry the same weight in modern times than it used to. This is asking for transparency for the sake of transparency.

Yeah i dont get why people are so fucking obsessed with subs. people make fun of hipsters, but do the exat same thing
"I only care about this because it has X amount of people"
As long as the game has players who the fuck cares?
If the game has 1 mil or 10 mil it wont really effect you personally, cause there is only so many people you can interact with. this obsession with sub numbers is just pathetic, and blizz was right to stop providing them.

also blizz has cared about MAU since vanilla, they measured it then too, but they tracked both, now they just care about MAU.

cause why the hell should they design the game around subs?
Many of those people may be people with multiple accounts, or just subbed but not logging in, care about Monthly active users, and that will tell you how many people are actually playing. and in what months.

- - - Updated - - -

It's easier to manipulate data reflecting MAUs than it is to do the same for sub numbers. Check mate.

what? no it is not.
Please explain to me how you think so?

[ercarp]

I'm impressed by everything we've seen visually. The gameplay systems haven't convinced me yet, but it seems to me like the developers are making more of an effort to listen to player feedback this time.

[Cwimge]

No. there's nothing to look forward to and nothing to miss or regret except my decision to check in and then read a thread. For me wow is dead

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Cautiously hopeful. They're taking a lot of steps in the right direction but the expansion is still a ways away.

[Magistrate]

Ah yeah, I think it is because of the rushed and lip-tight presentation. We weren't used to so little detail during BlizzCon so most took it bad.

That's very much how I felt. It seemed like a lot was up in the air that probably should have been mentioned. I'm surprised they didn't outright announce return of PvP vendors--that would have been a selling point for some. Also, the new garrison tables are autochess which is a huge design decision and much more interesting/interactive than the system we've had mutated since WoD. I was surprised when that was datamined that it hadn't been marketed as a selling point.

It also felt like covenant abilities were almost downplayed during Blizzcon. Looking at everything datamined right now, it feels like a much bigger feature than they initially announced. I have a great deal of reservation about them.

Very excited about the zones. And I can't wait to see the city--they said it would be on par with Suramar, but it's a functional city this time, so that will be a first for WoW having a player city that big and intricate.

[Nathasil]

I don't feel more positive at all. Still have not preordered and will likely wait it out until launch this time.

While the info we have does not look particularly bad - the way BFA looked at this point - it does not look particularly good either. There is no single feature i am really looking forward to.

- No new class
- No new race (and i am talking REAL races here, not this allied race BS)
- No class changes worth noting (PvP Talents stay, no new roles added to any class, no role changes for ANY existing spec, no cross-spec-options, no cross-class-builds...litterally NOTHING but adding some - not even all - old abilities back that most players will never use, no new class unlocks for existing races)
- No gearing changes worth noting (REAL sockets not coming back, currently no reforging, no hard capped stats, versatility stays in - which i consider insulting, no new stats added to segregate PvP and PvE gear which is a huge mistake when they are adding vendors for just one of the two, no class specific gear right now)
- Cosmetics. Everything for everybody. No class specific cosmetics, no race specific cosmetics. This makes for a very bland pile of nothingness in my opinion. The additions to race customizations so far look disgusting and insuting, even. Have not seen ANYTHING so far i liked or cared about.
- Factions. No cross-faction-grouping, but no faction-conflict, either. Just a complete No-Show in ANYTHING faction-related when it is one of the topics most players have strong opinions about (no matter which direction). After completely shitting on one of your two factions for an entire expansion that is the exact opposite of what the game needs to save this system, or reform it. But there is absolutely NOTHING done about it.
- Lore. The sword is still there - but we don't care. The Horde will go unpunished for Teldrassil, from how it looks right now Tyrande will even accept the help of Horde PCs in her questlines. Just say that you never gave a fuck besides selling BFA boxes to Horde players, Blizzard. I don't feel particularly interested in any of the four factions. I feel the connection to the REAL lore is just not there - everything looks like a forced retcon just for the sake of forcing retcons.

---

So no, it does not look good for me. I think it looks dire. SL may not be as bad as BFA...it looks like a generic filler expansion with jack-shit-nothing in new features and only safe-bets for content....same-old-same-old...but from my PoV they would need something even stronger and more ambitious than Legion to recover from the crapfest that was BFA....and SL is not that. Not by a long shot. From what i have seen until now, SL is nowhere even close to being good enough to bring Warcraft back after BFA.

[Laughingjack]

No... I thought maybe all the derpy systems would actually be gone.

[Multitorix Davlen]

It's easier to manipulate data reflecting MAUs than it is to do the same for sub numbers. Check mate.

so hypothetically, if sub numbers are significantly higher than MAUs, what does that tell us?