Poll: Does Unholy have too many cooldowns?

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  1. #1

    Does Unholy have too many cooldowns?

    I'm talking about baseline offensive cooldowns. Does Unholy have too many?
    Some would argue Unholy Frenzy should be added to the list because it's so good that some consider it mandatory.
    But currently we have these lined up for Shadowlands:

    Raise Dead - (Not really a cooldown, but the ghoul has to be accounted for)
    Sacrificial Pact
    Dark Transformation
    Apocalypse
    Summon Gargoyle
    Army of the Dead

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    I'm talking about baseline offensive cooldowns. Does Unholy have too many?
    Some would argue Unholy Frenzy should be added to the list because it's so good that some consider it mandatory.
    But currently we have these lined up for Shadowlands:

    Raise Dead - (Not really a cooldown, but the ghoul has to be accounted for)
    Sacrificial Pact
    Dark Transformation
    Apocalypse
    Summon Gargoyle
    Army of the Dead
    Maybe.... but I'm not quite sure the damage done by Sacrificial Pact is high enough to be considered a cooldown at this stage of Alpha.
    It doesn't feel impactful.
    _____________________________________________
    Also known as Kalrell ingame and @Kalrell on Twitters.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinzaram View Post
    Maybe.... but I'm not quite sure the damage done by Sacrificial Pact is high enough to be considered a cooldown at this stage of Alpha.
    It doesn't feel impactful.
    And yet you're still going to have to use it, because it deals damage.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    Raise Dead - (Not really a cooldown, but the ghoul has to be accounted for)
    Sacrificial Pact
    Dark Transformation
    Apocalypse
    Summon Gargoyle
    Army of the Dead
    I mean I'm not sure I would call DT a cooldown (like is dnd a cooldown just because it has a cooldown)

    The jury's out on if sac will be a dps bonus for unholy given our reliance on pet damage

    Even with army of the damned talent, you don't really use AotD in combat so I'm not sure it really counts (and dks fought a war with blizzard to keep it so don't even go there)

    So that's really just apocalypse and garg (even then I feel like apocalypse leans more towards the DT 'rotational CD' then the traditional 'big damage time' cd garg is).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkthugal View Post
    And yet you're still going to have to use it, because it deals damage.
    Unless the damage doesn't outweigh losing two gcds and the summon time on the new ghoul?

  5. #5
    Nope, that just means you have some interesting tools to actually do something over the course of a fight.

    Raise dead isn't even so much a cooldown as a requirement for the class to work, and sacrifical pact has yet to show if it's even worth using in most scenarios outside of emergency healing.
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  6. #6
    Yes it does. And just add Unholy frenzy to that cause its pretty much mandatory. So its AOTD+DT+APOC+UF just to then start doing damage. And now were gonna have Garg on top of that. Thats ridiculous.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    They should rework unholy frenzy to just proc once you pop Dark Transformation.
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  8. #8
    I wouldn't expect Sacrificial Pact and thus Raise Dead to be used in tandem as offensive CDs (for Unholy). It's meant to be Dark Pact, not Corpse Explosion. If it was meant to be used like Corpse Explosion, you would use it after Army and Apocalypse ghouls are about to or have expired and Raise Dead wouldn't even be in the equation. When Raise Dead is in the equation this promotes a game-play style where your Ghoul and thus your potential damage output is extremely vulnerable during the period when you Raise after using Sacrificial Pact as if your ghoul dies or despawns during this period your output is severely impacted. Our ghoul Timmy currently does something like 15% of overall damage, and even more during burst periods like Dark Transformation which while you can use it before still creates an unhealthy rotational relationship.

    We've seen the impact of this kind of scenario back during Cataclysm during Throne of the Four Winds and Madness of Deathwing where your pet would be absent for a lot of the fight so you would be ultimately forced to go Frost to counter the DK's inability to resummon their pet regularly like other pet classes. I'm going to look at Sacrificial Pact personally as an ability I'll use as a real method of last resort, because the impact of not having a Ghoul is so detrimental that if I really can't guarantee if I could have it around all the time it makes Sacrificial Pact more of a liability than a benefit. And at the very least even if the damage or healing were worth losing the ghoul during that period, it would still feel terribly mechanically - to say nothing of losing the fun interactions with Dark Transformation and Death Coil and Ghoul energy. But in normal situations Sacrificial Pact should just be a survival button, just as Dark Pact was in the past. The only difference this time is if the Ghoul is going to be despawned for sure in a terrible situation like going through a portal that doesn't support pets or hopping across a platform then you can maybe get some benefit from your pet before they die. It's more of a compromise to a terrible potential situation.
    Last edited by Razion; 2020-04-26 at 07:31 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I wouldn't expect Sacrificial Pact and thus Raise Dead to be used in tandem as offensive CDs (for Unholy). It's meant to be Dark Pact, not Corpse Explosion. If it was meant to be used like Corpse Explosion, you would use it after Army and Apocalypse ghouls are about to or have expired and Raise Dead wouldn't even be in the equation.
    Wait, is sac working on AotD and apoc'd ghouls? Big if true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Yes it does. And just add Unholy frenzy to that cause its pretty much mandatory. So its AOTD+DT+APOC+UF just to then start doing damage. And now were gonna have Garg on top of that. Thats ridiculous.
    But you only use AotD on pre pull and apocalypse does damage...
    As an aside have you met the arcane mage?

  10. #10
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Nope, don't ever feel overwhelmed with ability bloat when playing Unholy, feels fun to me tbh.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    Nope, don't ever feel overwhelmed with ability bloat when playing Unholy, feels fun to me tbh.
    Was gonna say, this is also the case for me. Perhaps the difference between UH and some other classes in this regard is that with UH, you actually have something cool happen.
    DT? Your puny ghoul transforms into a hulking monstrosity.
    Apocalypse? Deal decent damage and summon up a small army.
    Summon Gargoyle? Same thing, always a pleasure to summon a freaky monster to your side to do your bidding, especially since it's a monster bat.
    AOTD? Lol. Need I say anything?

    The only ability which I don't like pressing, not because it isn't good but rather because it doesn't feel nearly half as cool is Unholy Frenzy. Eh. I appreciate the interaction with Festering Wounds but the button doesn't compare to the others.

    Also, as people have already said in here, Sacrificial Pact will barely be a DPS cooldown.
    And Raise Dead doesn't belong into your list. Of course the ghoul has to be accounted for... that's why we play UH, no?

    In summary, if you enjoy the fantasy of summoning a verifiable menagerie of the dead to your help, then I don't think you'd mind the cooldowns. If not, then why the hell are you playing UH?

  12. #12
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    Only sounds problematic when you hit max level and you got like 5% haste for like 2days?
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  13. #13
    i personaly dont see apocalypse and transform as a cooldown, id put it in the same tier as demo locks Demonic Strength

  14. #14
    I think with talents it does feel like a lot of cooldowns. I really enjoy the play style of managing so many cool downs but outside of the cool downs our attack feels like wet noodles. I wouldn't mind having more stable dmg out put.

    Also I worried that we might end up with too many abilities especially in pvp. I am already at the limit of keybinds, with new abilities added and pvp talents, I am afraid it might become too many keybinds.

  15. #15
    On the topic of too many buttons, god I hope unholy blight will viable with the changes, it will be nice to have more then one dot even if you just try and line it up with apoc casts.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Wait, is sac working on AotD and apoc'd ghouls? Big if true.


    But you only use AotD on pre pull and apocalypse does damage...
    As an aside have you met the arcane mage?
    No you do not only aotd on pull. If you do that you suck. You use when you can pair it up with lust. If you lust at 30% of a boss hp thats when you aotd. Apoc does damage but its still a 1.3 min cd that you can feel on the dps meters when you dont use it paired up with other buffs.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2020-04-28 at 03:15 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    No you do not only aotd on pull. If you do that you suck. You use when you can pair it up with lust. If you lust at 30% of a boss hp thats when you aotd. Apoc does damage but its still a 1.3 min cd that you can feel on the dps meters when you dont use it paired up with other buffs.
    The apoc thing was a joke, You're right about the AotD thing my statement was more absolutionist then it should have been*.





    *That said in my defence I didn't really have space in my joke post to go into the nuances of the uses across every fight in the raid.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-04-28 at 12:16 PM.

  18. #18
    Yes, there are many CDs, but you are not just going down the action bar and click all of them at the start, they each have different uses.

    Army of the Dead is mainly pre-pull, the rune cost usually forbids other uses, you can use it in combat but you usually have to just autoattack for a few seconds to be able to pay the rune cost.

    Dark Transformation is your standard push and forget CD, you want to just use it whenever it is avaiable and this is usually what you use on pull.

    Next you want to build a few wounds with Festering Strike, usually cast 2 times for somewhere between 4 and 6 Wounds and only then do you go for Apocalypse to spend the Wounds.

    Afterwards you usually are bit rune starved and low on wounds, so it is a good time for a combo of Soul Reaper and Unholy Frenzy to get those back.

    Each CD fills a certain need at a certain time, so I would not like to see any of them removed.

    And I am quite sure that Sacrificial Pact will not be a DPS CD, but an emergency button. You will definately loose the dps of your ghoul for several Globals, it would have to be a huge hit to make that worth it.

  19. #19
    Actually, there is probably an argument that in its current form soul reaper shouldn't be the best choice for sustained single target, maybe if they buffed or reworked sudden doom to be better in extended st fights that might relieve some pressure off people's fingers.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    I'm talking about baseline offensive cooldowns. Does Unholy have too many?
    Some would argue Unholy Frenzy should be added to the list because it's so good that some consider it mandatory.
    But currently we have these lined up for Shadowlands:

    Raise Dead - (Not really a cooldown, but the ghoul has to be accounted for)
    Sacrificial Pact
    Dark Transformation
    Apocalypse
    Summon Gargoyle
    Army of the Dead
    Short answer, no.

    Raise Dead is not a cooldown at all.
    Most likely Sacrifical Pact will not be a part of our rotation in any way.
    Most of the time, AotD will be used once in a fight, possibly twice.

    That leaves us with 3 Cooldowns, one of that is on such a short CD if you are managing your RP correctly that i wont even call it a CD. My only gripe is that Apo CD is 1.25 min and Gargoyle 3 min, making it hard to line up and also might make UF the best talent still as it will still line up perfectly with Apo, but that we need to wait and see.

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