Flying Update in Shadowlands

[Softbottom]

Then literally everything that's happened since 1.0 is time gated and your argument is still specious.

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If you want the reward for doing open world content, then you have to do open world content. Just like literally any reward from any other part of the game. Pathfinder is a reward for completing it. Playing the game means playing the part of the game for which it is the reward. If you don't do open world content, you don't need flying.

I don't expect raid loot from battlegrounds, or pet tokens from raids. You shouldn't expect something only useful in the open world to not require you to do things in the open world. The rewards you get should fit the content you do, and you should have to do that content to get them.

Except you used to always be able to get flying without doing world content so....

[Accendor]

Yeah let’s also slow down leveling to Classic pace, I’m playing since day one and it’s just not fair that a new guy can do 1-120 in less than 784994 days of /played.

I mean I would agree with that.

[chiddie]

I mean I would agree with that.

I have no doubt but it makes little sense applied to a MMORPG.

[schwank05]

about time, wasting time while leveling in WoD serves none other than idiots that belive that trivial stuff have to be 'earned' by wasted time, WoD has been irrelevant for years, personally when leveling i always skip draenor entirely via dungeons/archaeology and the likes, might even give the continent another chance now

Right now the Initial Draenor starting quests is a fast easy 5 levels and takes like an hour so I love WOD for this part then the world area quests doing 8-10 of them will finish you off.

[chiddie]

Right now the Initial Draenor starting quests is a fast easy 5 levels and takes like an hour so I love WOD for this part then the world area quests doing 8-10 of them will finish you off.

Nope. The initial Draenor scenario grants about 2,5 levels, with full looms and 100% Blizzard bonus. Did it not later than yesterday. You can maybe get to 93 if you are full rested also, but 95 definitely no.

What a pity that in Draenor Azeroth Auto Pilot is bugged like hell and I have also to type /aap skip every two steps because it wants you to get treasures which is quite nightmarish if you don’t have flying enabled like me.

[Shaetha]

Except you used to always be able to get flying without doing world content so....

You also used to be required to do attunements to get into raids. The design changed. Not every change is going to make the game easier.

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We're talking achievements, not content. Achievements weren't introduced into the game until patch 3.0. Splitting pathfinder into separate patches, is literally the definition of time gating. Imagine if they did the same thing for content and raids could only be completed across patches.

Achievements are nothing but markers that you've done things. You get flying for completeing an amount of world content, part of which wasn't in the game in 8.0. So, like I said, your argument is specious. It makes sense on the surface, but when you really look at it, it falls apart. Either everything added in patches is time gated(and paywalled!) or you need to think about what the buzzwords you're slinging actually mean because the definition you're using is too vague to mean anything.

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I would totally agree... if PF could be completed by simply exploring and doing the zones’ stories.

As long as they are still ALSO locked behind the stupid reputations and you cannot get to revered by simply doing standard quests (not mentioning factions without normal quests like CoA and in lesser degree Naz and Mechalols) for me it’s still dumb, sorry.

World quests are the endgame for world content. Pathfinder is an endgame reward. There is no reliable way to measure how many world quests you've done outside reputation. I guess a pathfinder requirement could be a number of world quests(or emissaries) instead of reputation, but it ends up the same place. Also, CoA had an unreplaceable boost to player power tied to it(not the first or last time that's happened either), so doing its rep was important for other reasons as well.

World content has always included reputations.

[Ragedaug]

How dare they want to require you do content to fly instead of rewarding the lazy. ANd you seem to forget that EVERYONE hiad to level in BFA without flying. Player entitlement and laziness continues to get worse.

It makes me chuckle that you chide people for being lazy at playing a game. The thing they want to do when they are done working, finished with their studies and doing chores, etc. When people have their down time and want to relax. And here you come along scolding them for wanting to be lazy while they are relaxing.

RELAX HARDER PEOPLE!! ...ugh, so lazy.

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So you’re saying that because the game doesn’t hand you everything instantly, it’s worse than having nothing to do?

Nope, that wasn't what he was saying. I saw nothing about "instant" there. Work hard, spend many hours working to progress and get BiS, then when you finally accomplish that, sit back, relish your accomplishment, and raid log. Versus logging in ad infinitum to do chores that will never enable you to reach the goal line.

[Kaleredar]

Nope, that wasn't what he was saying. I saw nothing about "instant" there. Work hard, spend many hours working to progress and get BiS, then when you finally accomplish that, sit back, relish your accomplishment, and raid log. Versus logging in ad infinitum to do chores that will never enable you to reach the goal line.

And you can get BiS. That you lose sleep over infinitesimal shreds of DPS because getting the bonuses isn't guaranteed is on you, not the game's design because, like I said, all of that's pretty irrelevant anyway, as only a tiny, tiny sliver of the playerbase even remotely cares about raid logs. Hell, I'd bet most players don't even know what that is.

The majority of players are going to be doing world quests, raids, mythic dungeons, island expeditions, visions of N'zoth, and the other things BFA has to offer as opposed to the WoD content of... sitting in your garrison, doing nothing. And it's quite obvious that no, the ability to secure BiS in WoD was not enough to retain the playerbase. Almost as if, like I said, very few players actualy care about some completely ulterior metric that rewards you with nothing, and certainly don't care about it enough to lose sleep about not getting titanforged perfect azerite-traited gear with sockets in every slot, the RNG-aspect of which you ascribe to being "ruinous game design."

It's quite obvious Blizzard's game design sense differs from yours. Because it's obvious to me that things like warforged, extra gem sockets, etc are supposed to be bonuses. As in, "oh, cool, I got an extra perk on this armor! That's neat and makes me feel special." As opposed to your apparent mindset of "I'm being PUNISHED by NOT getting the perfect rolls on the loot I'm getting! THAT MAKES ME FEEL VICTIMIZED BY THEIR GAME DESIGN!"

[Kalisandra]

about time, wasting time while leveling in WoD serves none other than idiots that belive that trivial stuff have to be 'earned' by wasted time, WoD has been irrelevant for years, personally when leveling i always skip draenor entirely via dungeons/archaeology and the likes, might even give the continent another chance now

I certainly don't - it's the fastest levelling range there is. Stay in it and level off chests, etc., for as long as possible. Legion is good for that, but WoD is better. Then you hit BfA, and it's an awful slog through stuff you've probably done far too many times already. To be fair, levelling alts through the current expansion is almost always like this, WoD being the exception in the day with it's x3 XP pots and high XP for chests and bonus areas.

[chiddie]

You also used to be required to do attunements to get into raids. The design changed. Not every change is going to make the game easier.

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Achievements are nothing but markers that you've done things. You get flying for completeing an amount of world content, part of which wasn't in the game in 8.0. So, like I said, your argument is specious. It makes sense on the surface, but when you really look at it, it falls apart. Either everything added in patches is time gated(and paywalled!) or you need to think about what the buzzwords you're slinging actually mean because the definition you're using is too vague to mean anything.

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World quests are the endgame for world content. Pathfinder is an endgame reward. There is no reliable way to measure how many world quests you've done outside reputation. I guess a pathfinder requirement could be a number of world quests(or emissaries) instead of reputation, but it ends up the same place. Also, CoA had an unreplaceable boost to player power tied to it(not the first or last time that's happened either), so doing its rep was important for other reasons as well.

World content has always included reputations.

World quest are not an endgame. They are there ONLY because devs failed to do enough story/chain quests to get you to exalted.

Flying is not “hardcore” content, it has never been until in WoD when some ‘tard thought that locking it behind stupid and boring activities (rep grinding) was a cool idea.

Reps are one of the worst mechanics the game has and always had.

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It makes me chuckle that you chide people for being lazy at playing a game. The thing they want to do when they are done working, finished with their studies and doing chores, etc. When people have their down time and want to relax. And here you come along scolding them for wanting to be lazy while they are relaxing.

RELAX HARDER PEOPLE!! ...ugh, so lazy.

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Nope, that wasn't what he was saying. I saw nothing about "instant" there. Work hard, spend many hours working to progress and get BiS, then when you finally accomplish that, sit back, relish your accomplishment, and raid log. Versus logging in ad infinitum to do chores that will never enable you to reach the goal line.

Not counting that having more spare time than others is not “skill” in the slightest. The 90% of so called “endgame” stuff need simply time to be accomplished.

In normal times I play 8/10 hours a week when I’m lucky, not because I want but because I can’t play more because of, you know, “life happens”.

[Shaetha]

World quest are not an endgame. They are there ONLY because devs failed to do enough story/chain quests to get you to exalted.

Flying is not “hardcore” content, it has never been until in WoD when some ‘tard thought that locking it behind stupid and boring activities (rep grinding) was a cool idea.

Reps are one of the worst mechanics the game has and always had.

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Not counting that having more spare time than others is not “skill” in the slightest. The 90% of so called “endgame” stuff need simply time to be accomplished.

In normal times I play 8/10 hours a week when I’m lucky, not because I want but because I can’t play more because of, you know, “life happens”.

Can you do world quests from this expansion before level 120? Could you do world quests in legion before 110? If you can't do it before max level it's end game. That's what end game means. Heroic dungeons are end game too. It has nothing to do with difficulty. It's content you can only do at max level, the end of the game.

There have been about 3 reps in the entirety of the game that don't require grinding to get exalted. That argument is complete nonsense. World quests are end game daily quests. Every expansion has end game daily quests.

Also, to your other statement. Literally every game does nothing but offer something on which to spend your free time. MMORPGs have the highest requirement of your time to keep up by design. They're not meant to be completed in a week. They're meant to be completed playing a few hours a week over MONTHS. Skill is a product of practice and attention which are both TIME.

The concept of attaining BIS and quitting is degenerate. If your only goal is to get items, you need to majorly reevaluate your decision to play in the first place. Play because you enjoy playing. If you play for any other reason you've fucked up, and if you're quitting after you've achieved an arbitrary goal you're not playing for fun.

[chiddie]

Can you do world quests from this expansion before level 120? Could you do world quests in legion before 110? If you can't do it before max level it's end game. That's what end game means. Heroic dungeons are end game too. It has nothing to do with difficulty. It's content you can only do at max level, the end of the game.

There have been about 3 reps in the entirety of the game that don't require grinding to get exalted. That argument is complete nonsense. World quests are end game daily quests. Every expansion has end game daily quests.

Also, to your other statement. Literally every game does nothing but offer something on which to spend your free time. MMORPGs have the highest requirement of your time to keep up by design. They're not meant to be completed in a week. They're meant to be completed playing a few hours a week over MONTHS. Skill is a product of practice and attention which are both TIME.

The concept of attaining BIS and quitting is degenerate. If your only goal is to get items, you need to majorly reevaluate your decision to play in the first place. Play because you enjoy playing. If you play for any other reason you've fucked up, and if you're quitting after you've achieved an arbitrary goal you're not playing for fun.

Every single rep requires WQ grinding to get revered. Every single one. Far beyond what’s necessary to improve your char gear.

[Ragedaug]

And you can get BiS. That you lose sleep over infinitesimal shreds of DPS because getting the bonuses isn't guaranteed is on you, not the game's design because, like I said, all of that's pretty irrelevant anyway, as only a tiny, tiny sliver of the playerbase even remotely cares about raid logs. Hell, I'd bet most players don't even know what that is.

I'm not sure what this part is about. I don't know who's losing sleep over BiS. Maybe someone out there.

The majority of players are going to be doing world quests, raids, mythic dungeons, island expeditions, visions of N'zoth, and the other things BFA has to offer as opposed to the WoD content of... sitting in your garrison, doing nothing. And it's quite obvious that no, the ability to secure BiS in WoD was not enough to retain the playerbase. Almost as if, like I said, very few players actualy care about some completely ulterior metric that rewards you with nothing, and certainly don't care about it enough to lose sleep about not getting titanforged perfect azerite-traited gear with sockets in every slot, the RNG-aspect of which you ascribe to being "ruinous game design."

What I enjoyed was getting my characters to a point where they could do mid-level progression with my F&F guild, doing dungeons, and being able to PuG into raids when I felt like it. And if my guild wasn't doing a raid, I'd level an alt, and get them geared up. And if I didn't feel like leveling an alt, I'd look for some achievements to do, run some old content for transmog, or collect pets. I haven't been able to do that since WoD. And even in WoD it wasn't as often as previous expansions as most of my alts spent most of their time maintaining their garrisons & followers.

It's quite obvious Blizzard's game design sense differs from yours. Because it's obvious to me that things like warforged, extra gem sockets, etc are supposed to be bonuses. As in, "oh, cool, I got an extra perk on this armor! That's neat and makes me feel special." As opposed to your apparent mindset of "I'm being PUNISHED by NOT getting the perfect rolls on the loot I'm getting! THAT MAKES ME FEEL VICTIMIZED BY THEIR GAME DESIGN!"

You have some guesses about what kind of player I am, but you missed the mark. I enjoy xforged gear, and the random bonus'. I've never cared a whole lot about BiS lists and infinitesimal gains in DPS. I can just sympathize with those who do, because I also don't like to play a game to do chores.

In WoD the chore was my garrison and followers.
In Legion the chore was my class hall & artifact weapon.
In BfA the chore was my necklace & cloak.

Never ending chores, and if I played an alt and stopped doing those chores on my main, it felt like my main was falling behind. My alts felt like they never caught up, most hardly even starting. I find that I'm logging in to do what I "have" to do, instead of doing what I "want" to do, which is what kept me playing WoW previously.

I finally ask myself "what's the point of this", and starting in WoD (the first time since I started playing at the end of Vanilla), I would let my subscription lapse after I got pathfinder or some other goal, and find some other game to play.

[rrayy]

It makes me chuckle that you chide people for being lazy at playing a game. The thing they want to do when they are done working, finished with their studies and doing chores, etc. When people have their down time and want to relax. And here you come along scolding them for wanting to be lazy while they are relaxing.

RELAX HARDER PEOPLE!! ...ugh, so lazy.

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Nope, that wasn't what he was saying. I saw nothing about "instant" there. Work hard, spend many hours working to progress and get BiS, then when you finally accomplish that, sit back, relish your accomplishment, and raid log. Versus logging in ad infinitum to do chores that will never enable you to reach the goal line.

Not what I mean by "lazy". What I am saying is that they want things handed to them and want requirements for content to be removed simply because they don't want to do it. If you can't be bothered to do a couple of hours of very easy content to get a reward, then WoW isn't for you. Player entitlement and laziness has hurt this game immesnsely.

[Michael Jackson]

Not what I mean by "lazy". What I am saying is that they want things handed to them and want requirements for content to be removed simply because they don't want to do it. If you can't be bothered to do a couple of hours of very easy content to get a reward, then WoW isn't for you. Player entitlement and laziness has hurt this game immesnsely.

Give me some fucking examples.

I fucking dare you.

Give me 5 concrete examples, by concrete I mean quantitative, either in player loss, measureable player disapproval etc, that can be proven caused damage to the game in an...immense fashion.

Very easy content = boring content. Everyone is asking themselves the same shit. "Why am I doing this long, grindy, easy shit for something that doesn't even have anything to do with the unlocking content I'm playing?".

People want the freedom to explore and to maximize their travel speed. "Gain exalted reputation with these 6 factions". What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Make it something interesting instead, like: "Complete this flight obstacle course on hard difficulty" or "Win aerial duels against these enemies" or something that MAKES SENSE. That's rewarding because you beat the challenge. Not rewarding for having done mindless drone tasks for a month.

A few hours? With the limited amount of time we have in our lives after working, sleeping, shitting, washing, cooking, eating...you have a few HOURS to waste on meaningless tasks? I fucking envy you. I really do. I wish I had your luxury.

[Capita1ist]

Not removing BfA makes sense.

New players are forced to level through BfA, so they want them to experience the game properly, at the right speed and flow it was designed around, which it was not done with flying. We've all just done it and personally, while I love having flying, I didn't really miss it that much while levelling through BfA. Not to mention a new player can't miss something they never had.

As for other expansions, new players can only access that once they've maxed level and go back or level an alt. By which time they will presumably have flying anyway on their main. So giving them flying for the other expansions they're now going back to makes sense.

From a new players perspective, this is how it'll go:

Level BfA > Go to SL

Get max level > Fly in SL

Create alt > Go to another expansion

level to 30 > Get flying

That's the only order they can do in, so at no point would they gain flying and then lose it again, outside of maybe getting BfA pathfinder before going to SL. So honestly, this is a change that makes sense. Old expansions are exactly that, old content. Players skipping the world and just flying from point to point isn't that big a deal, BfA though will still be relevant as the lead up to SL so they likely want players to experience it properly.

This. Exactly this. I have zero issue with this. New players have to max a toon before they can get flying at 30.

[AmazonDruid]

Flying Update in Shadowlands
We've previously covered the new Flying unlock levels in Shadowlands.

With the major changes coming to leveling characters from 10-50 in Shadowlands, we want to make sure that there is a navigational parity among all of the different expansions you can choose while questing. In the next version of the Shadowlands Alpha that will appear this week, testers are going to see an intentional change coming to Shadowlands for a couple of older Pathfinder achievements.

Specifically, the flight training rewards from Draenor Pathfinder and Broken Isles Pathfinder, Part Two will no longer be required for flying in Draenor or Broken Isles content. These will now be granted at level 30 with expert flying.

The achievements will remain in place as before, and Draenor Pathfinder will still be the way to earn the Soaring Skyterror mount, while Broken Isles Pathfinder, Part One will continue to reward increased mount speed in the Broken Isles.

Thank you very much!

New players... lol. At this point? Who believes that? Maybd returning players, not a single new player for a dated game

[Ragedaug]

Not what I mean by "lazy". What I am saying is that they want things handed to them and want requirements for content to be removed simply because they don't want to do it. If you can't be bothered to do a couple of hours of very easy content to get a reward, then WoW isn't for you. Player entitlement and laziness has hurt this game immensely.

You compared wanting to fly with being "lazy".

"How dare they want to require you do content to fly instead of rewarding the lazy."

Traveling in a game to a place where I can play the game, then traveling to another place in the game where I can continue playing the game is one of the most annoying parts of playing this type of game. They have you spend many minutes running to a place, that I have run to hundreds of times before, when I could fly there in a fraction of the time. So it's bad enough that we have chores to do when we log in, then Blizz says they know we'll prefer to waste in-game time just to get to the chore. And I come along and say, "I'd rather just play the game, then spend my time running. Then you come along and call me lazy, like that will change my mind and make me like spending most of my game time in-transit.

I don't think I've ever played a "running simulator".

You heard of the new game?
- What new game?

It's called 'Running'.
- Huh...how do you play it?

You log into the game, and you are on one side of the map. Then you run to the other side of the map. Gives you a chance to see the beautiful landscapes they made.
- Seems you could appreciate their beautiful landscape more from an elevated view.

That's not how they want you to see it.
- OK, so then do you have adventures, and fight stuff or solve stuff as you run through?

No, you just run. Though occasionally stuff will fight you.
- OK, so then you can fight it?

No, there's no point to fighting it. Instead it just slows you down for a while.
- So that's so you can enjoy the landscape more?

No, you aren't really paying attention to the landscape when stuff is hitting you. Mostly just focused on getting away from it so you can go faster again. Also, there will be random mountains in the way.
- Ah, then you run up the mountain to see more of the landscape?

No, the mountain will act more like a wall. So you have to run around it.
- Oh...will there be clues to solve or hints on how to get around it?

No, you just have to guess by running one way, then if you choose wrong, eventually you run the other way to see if it was better.
- So the real adventure happens when you finally get there, huh?

When you get there a turtle will ask you to run in a circle, or you'll be asked to kill a random dude that dies pretty quickly.
- Then what happens?

You run back.

[Honeyprime]

Well this is some welcome news.

[DesoPL]

I have a solution for you. Don't play the game until the very last patch of the very last expansion! Then mean evil bad boy Blizzard won't steal your things and waste your time!

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I know Blizzard has somewhat denied that WoW is coming to consoles but the addition of gamepad support and all these changes to leveling and experiences for new players, which I don't see happening on pc, is aaawfully suspicious.

I got better solution.

Fuck off.