Class restrictions are not lore friendly

[Saichou]

Often on forums when I read a lore discussion there are people who say something along the lines of "Ugh, Blizzard doesn't care about lore if they give X race this Y class" or "It's ridiculous that they gave Y class to X race, it goes completely against the lore" or something that just boils down to "X race can't be Y class because they like such and such and that means that they can't be interested interested in something or other". And I just completely disagree with such arguments because I think that the logic behind these statements is just flawed. I think that every race should be every class and that that would be perfectly fine from a lore perspective, in fact even more so than having restrictions. And I am saying this from a pure lore perspective, I don't care whether they implement it in the game or not.

And I will try to establish a few points as to why I think that's the case:

1. The average meat consumption per person in industrialized countries is around 80 kilograms. In America it's around 120 kg. It's no surprise that americans love to eat meat: when one thinks of american cuisine he most likely will imagine foods like hamburgers, steak, bacon, fried chicken and others. Obviously eating meat is a major part of american culture. Does that mean that americans can't be vegans? Of course it doesn't. In fact there are a lot of american vegans. Smoothies and quinoa are also associated with american cuisine, even though they promote a much healthier lifestyle. But how is that possible? Just because a culture traditionally values one custom, doesn't mean that it cannot also value another, even if it's in total contrast I.e. just because Tauren are largely intersted in nature, doesn't mean that they can't be interested in becoming mages.

2.From the 16th to the 18th century, France was one of the leading absolute monarchies in Europe (which means that the king has supreme and unrestricted authority) and remains to this day (historically) a prime example of such a system of government. Does that mean that all french citizens supported such a system and that it never changed? Of course it doesn't The french revolution completely changed this system and resulted in values that are relevant even today. But how? Just because a custom is completely different than one that is already strongly established in a culture, doesn't mean that it can't become just as strongly established (or replace it altogether) I.e. just because Humans are largely intersted in industry and Gnomes in technology, doesn't mean that others can't be interested in shamanism in druidism.

3.The horns of javan rhinos are used in traditional vietnamese medicine. As a result there are only a few hundred left in Vietnam. Luckily for the rhinos, the vietnamese government has started several conservation projects to save them from extinction. There are however still poachers who hunt them because there exists a great market for their horns. Who hunts them? The vietnamese. Well, who runs the the conservation projects then? Also the vietnamese. But how is that possible? Shouldn't all vietnamese people have the same values? Of course not. A culture isn't a singular entity. It consists of many different groups with many different sets of values. I.e. just because most Night elves and Draenei hate fel magic, doesn't mean that a large group do want to become warlocks.

What does this amount to? I will try to use both the forum-arguments and my reasoning on a race/class combination from vanilla.

"Why can Humans/Orcs be warlocks? Demons almost wiped out their entire populations and destroyed their homeworld. Also, Humans are devout light worshippers/ Orcs worship their ancestors." By that logic warlocks shouldn't even be a playable class because everyone hates demons in one way or another (except trolls, undead and belves because they have no morals). And yet here we are. Because playable warlocks are members of small and often secret groups. All races should have warlocks People often say "Night elevs and Draenei could never be warlocks. The Burning Legion almost destroyed them" but that doesn't make any sense because the Burning Legion almost destroyed everyone.

Other race/class combinations can be justified in a similar way.
Again, I don't care about which races get to play as warlocks I just think that people who say that certain races can't be certain classes because of "lore" don't know what they're talking about.
Prove me wrong.

[omeomorfismo]

the problem is that allowing free classes for everyone means that exception stop to exists, like the classic lawful good drow that every d&d novice roleplayer want to be.
the races in rpgs are meant to be archetypes, so you should pick the race that resemble more the idea of your character (at least initially). exceptions are nice, dont take me wrong, but mostly for npcs, where they can be useful for the storytelling for the uniqueness they provide.

[Ielenia]

One thing that kind of throws a bit wrench in that whole reasoning of yours:

The player character is not the exception to the culture their race hails from. Instead, we (as in, our characters) are the norm, which is why we follow the "cultural rules" for class selection.

Now, can "exceptions" become norms, like night elves now being able to be mages? Yes, they can. But there has to be a lore reason for that. Tyrande and Malfurion accepted the highborne back into night elven society, which is why now night elves can be mages, for example.

[Varodoc]

I agree. For years and years I have championed for the cause of making void elf paladins playable.

[Schattenlied]

the problem is that allowing free classes for everyone means that exception stop to exists

This assumes that the player character is a representation of the average person of their race, and while that may have been true in vanilla it most certainly could not possibly be further from the truth now...

With how the game is now, with the player character being one of the most powerful people on Azeroth, being very special, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to be whatever class they want on whatever race... Even if their race isn't normally that class one could quite easily say that they got training from another race. For example, a Worgen or Night Elf Priest who moved to Stormwind after the destruction of Teldrassil decided to follow in the footsteps of heroes from the second war like Turlayon and Uther, who used to be Priests themselves, to transition to a more active role in defending his or her people, and seek training as a Paladin from the Church of the Light in Stormwind.

[Aurabolt]

One thing that kind of throws a bit wrench in that whole reasoning of yours:

The player character is not the exception to the culture their race hails from. Instead, we (as in, our characters) are the norm, which is why we follow the "cultural rules" for class selection.

Now, can "exceptions" become norms, like night elves now being able to be mages? Yes, they can. But there has to be a lore reason for that. Tyrande and Malfurion accepted the highborne back into night elven society, which is why now night elves can be mages, for example.

...This x1000.

To use Warlocks as a specific example. Humans and Orcs both hate them for basically the same reasons. They were allowed in the Stormwind after the Third War "because fight fire with fire". Thrall basically allowed Warlocks in Orgrimmar as long as they didn't cause trouble. Priest and Paladin orders don't like 'em and the Kirin Tor basically look the other way. Death Knights are basically plate-wearing Necromancers while we know of at least one Demon Hunter in Legion that befriended one.

LF/Draenei will NEVER become Warlocks for obvious lore reasons. two-thirds of their people and two of their leaders accepted Sargeras' offer to join him and thus they became Man'ari. Both Man'ari and Draenei are basically Eredar though. They're ok with their allies allowing Warlocks but they themselves would never do it. The only way I can see it happening is if a faction of Man'ari break away from the Legion and join their former kin on Azeroth. They're more likely to get fried by LF Draenei the moment they land outside the Exodar though. LOL.

Pandaren never had any exposure to Fel Magic during the course of their history and it's why they can't be Warlocks. Well, prior to Legion anyways. They clearly studied the Arcane since they can be Mages though. The Night Elves banned the practice of the Arcane after the War of the Ancients until the Cataclysm happened so...yeah. They know all too well how volatile Fel Magic is and want nothing to do with it. They allow the Illidari to train new Demon Hunters on a strict volunteer basis just like new Mages. The Tauren are somewhere between the Draenei and Night Elves. They consider it a perversion of the natural world but then again they advocated for the Forsaken to be allowed into the Horde, calling them victims of circumstance they didn't choose.

Blood Elves...anyone who played WCIII knows some of 'em went with Kael'thas to Outland. Until the Sunwell was purified, you could say all Blood Elves were basically Warlocks since they drink in Fel Magic to survive. The Nightfallen had a similar kind of thing before the Nightwell was restored minus the green eyes. As for Mag'har Orcs, I'm pretty sure the practice of Fel Magic was abandoned after the events of WoD so a whole generation grew up without it.

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I agree. For years and years I have championed for the cause of making void elf paladins playable.

We need Night Elf Paladins and Draenei Rogues too, damn it!

[Saichou]

I think that what I'm arguing is that every race having every class would not be an exception.
What I'm trying to say is that the lore behind a class is that its already part of the culture. Maybe not of the mainstream, but still there.
Was catholicism the norm in 16 st Europe? Yes. Were there also muslims, protestants and jews in Europe a the time? Yes. Did they ask the pope for permission though? I dont think so.
Now, highborne joining the nelves is a nice little lore reason for mages, sure. But are you telling me that in 10 000 years there wasn't a single group of night elves that tried to mess around with the arcane? Im sorry but that just doesnt seem very likely to me.
What did humans do 10 000 years ago? Our civilization isnt even half so old and look at how many different religions or philosophical teachings we've been through.
But to put it in another perspective, did human warlocks get permission from varian to join the alliance? Did dwarf rogues get a permission from magni? Are kul tiran thornspeakers even loyal to the kingdom, or to themselves?
I just dont think that cultures are that oversimplified that there is only one identity.

[omeomorfismo]

This assumes that the player character is a representation of the average person of their race, and while that may have been true in vanilla it most certainly could not possibly be further from the truth now...

With how the game is now, with the player character being one of the most powerful people on Azeroth, being very special, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to be whatever class they want on whatever race... Even if their race isn't normally that class one could quite easily say that they got training from another race. For example, a Worgen or Night Elf Priest who moved to Stormwind after the destruction of Teldrassil decided to follow in the footsteps of heroes from the second war like Turlayon and Uther, who used to be Priests themselves, to transition to a more active role in defending his or her people, and seek training as a Paladin from the Church of the Light in Stormwind.

buts thats true for us max level guys.
when we were at 1 we were normal people. for example my char was an undead just ressed that accepted to join the forsaken army instead to return to the grave or going for my way (at least in this offy incarnation). i wasnt like voss or leonid.
the same for the worgen or nelves, no one started its journey in stormwind

[Schattenlied]

buts thats true for us max level guys.
when we were at 1 we were normal people. for example my char was an undead just ressed that accepted to join the forsaken army instead to return to the grave or going for my way (at least in this offy incarnation). i wasnt like voss or leonid.
the same for the worgen, no one started its journey in stormwind

Except they do now... That's literally the new starting experience in Shadowlands, you start, at lvl 1, on a ship departed from Stormwind or Orgrimmar, regardless of your race.

[Saltysquidoon]

But how is that possible? Just because a culture traditionally values one custom, doesn't mean that it cannot also value another, even if it's in total contrast I.e. just because Tauren are largely intersted in nature, doesn't mean that they can't be interested in becoming mages.

Prove me wrong.

Man'ari Eredar (draenei warlocks) are biologically (not just culturally) different and their culture cannot under any circumstances tolerate warlocks.

Ergo any draenei who become was warlock ceases to be a draenei and becomes an eredar.

There I proved you wrong what do I win?

[Nefarious Tea]

Anyone who is even passingly familiar with roleplaying games other than wow knows that race/class restrictions are idiotic.

And yet there are people that will tell you to kill yourself for even daring to muse about removing them.

But really - it's almost certainly a question of money. Cata was a test for opening up restrictions, but I guess the bean counters decided the development time to make paladin mounts, shaman totems, and druid forms for every race wasn't going to be massively outstripped by the potential race change revenue. So Blizzard won't lift them.

[omeomorfismo]

I think that what I'm arguing is that every race having every class would not be an exception.
What I'm trying to say is that the lore behind a class is that its already part of the culture. Maybe not of the mainstream, but still there.
Was catholicism the norm in 16 st Europe? Yes. Were there also muslims, protestants and jews in Europe a the time? Yes. Did they ask the pope for permission though? I dont think so.
Now, highborne joining the nelves is a nice little lore reason for mages, sure. But are you telling me that in 10 000 years there wasn't a single group of night elves that tried to mess around with the arcane? Im sorry but that just doesnt seem very likely to me.
What did humans do 10 000 years ago? Our civilization isnt even half so old and look at how many different religions or philosophical teachings we've been through.
But to put it in another perspective, did human warlocks get permission from varian to join the alliance? Did dwarf rogues get a permission from magni? Are kul tiran thornspeakers even loyal to the kingdom, or to themselves?
I just dont think that cultures are that oversimplified that there is only one identity.

im pretty sure that just muslim merchants were allowed, there is a reason because even after something like 7 centuries of caliphate, islam was eradicated from spain...

and actually yes, human warlocks are barely accepted because their value in war, in other cases they are simply criminal. same for the dks.

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Except they do now... That's literally the new starting experience in Shadowlands, you start, at lvl 1, on a ship departed from Stormwind or Orgrimmar, regardless of your race.

im not following so much, but the start isnt like during legion?

[Venziir]

the problem is that allowing free classes for everyone means that exception stop to exists, like the classic lawful good drow that every d&d novice roleplayer want to be.
the races in rpgs are meant to be archetypes, so you should pick the race that resemble more the idea of your character (at least initially). exceptions are nice, dont take me wrong, but mostly for npcs, where they can be useful for the storytelling for the uniqueness they provide.

I'm sorry, I find it very odd that you chose D&D to be your example, when that very system did away with class/race restrictions 20 years ago

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im pretty sure that just muslim merchants were allowed, there is a reason because even after something like 7 centuries of caliphate, islam was eradicated from spain...

and actually yes, human warlocks are barely accepted because their value in war, in other cases they are simply criminal. same for the dks.

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im not following so much, but the start isnt like during legion?

Nope, it's Post-BFA, they just chose a Legion zone for... Well reasons I suppose.

[Schattenlied]

im not following so much, but the start isnt like during legion?

No, it takes place mostly on an uncharted island off the coast of Stormheim, but it's all post-Legion, and seemingly happens after, or perhaps during, the burning of Teldrassil and siege on Undercity. Alliance side, after the starting experience is over the player is called to the throneroom and told by the NPC that accompanied them through most of the experience that "it seems there was some trouble with the Horde while we were away", and is informed that the Horde and Alliance are already at war, and that the Horde has already recruited the Zandalari, then the player is sent directly to Kul Tiras with Jaina to recruit the Kul Tiran people for the Alliance.

Yes, this means you canonically become the "Champion of Azeroth" at level 10, which is kind of ridiculous tbh but it is what it is.

[Saichou]

Man'ari Eredar (draenei warlocks) are biologically (not just culturally) different and their culture cannot under any circumstances tolerate warlocks.

Ergo any draenei who become was warlock ceases to be a draenei and becomes an eredar.

There I proved you wrong what do I win?

Any lore to back that up?

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...This x1000.

To use Warlocks as a specific example. Humans and Orcs both hate them for basically the same reasons. They were allowed in the Stormwind after the Third War "because fight fire with fire". Thrall basically allowed Warlocks in Orgrimmar as long as they didn't cause trouble. Priest and Paladin orders don't like 'em and the Kirin Tor basically look the other way. Death Knights are basically plate-wearing Necromancers while we know of at least one Demon Hunter in Legion that befriended one.

LF/Draenei will NEVER become Warlocks for obvious lore reasons. two-thirds of their people and two of their leaders accepted Sargeras' offer to join him and thus they became Man'ari. Both Man'ari and Draenei are basically Eredar though. They're ok with their allies allowing Warlocks but they themselves would never do it. The only way I can see it happening is if a faction of Man'ari break away from the Legion and join their former kin on Azeroth. They're more likely to get fried by LF Draenei the moment they land outside the Exodar though. LOL.

Pandaren never had any exposure to Fel Magic during the course of their history and it's why they can't be Warlocks. Well, prior to Legion anyways. They clearly studied the Arcane since they can be Mages though. The Night Elves banned the practice of the Arcane after the War of the Ancients until the Cataclysm happened so...yeah. They know all too well how volatile Fel Magic is and want nothing to do with it. They allow the Illidari to train new Demon Hunters on a strict volunteer basis just like new Mages. The Tauren are somewhere between the Draenei and Night Elves. They consider it a perversion of the natural world but then again they advocated for the Forsaken to be allowed into the Horde, calling them victims of circumstance they didn't choose.

Blood Elves...anyone who played WCIII knows some of 'em went with Kael'thas to Outland. Until the Sunwell was purified, you could say all Blood Elves were basically Warlocks since they drink in Fel Magic to survive. The Nightfallen had a similar kind of thing before the Nightwell was restored minus the green eyes. As for Mag'har Orcs, I'm pretty sure the practice of Fel Magic was abandoned after the events of WoD so a whole generation grew up without it.

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We need Night Elf Paladins and Draenei Rogues too, damn it!

Demons and warlocks literally destroyed the orcs homeworld. How is that different from nelves and draenei? If humans and orcs can use warlocks to "battle fire with fire" how come draenei and nelves cant?

[Makorus]

Man'ari Eredar (draenei warlocks) are biologically (not just culturally) different and their culture cannot under any circumstances tolerate warlocks.

Ergo any draenei who become was warlock ceases to be a draenei and becomes an eredar.

There I proved you wrong what do I win?

Sargerei were warlocks and not Manari.

Draenei and Manari are both Eredar. Manari just let themself transform by fel magic.

Orc culture should not tolerate Warlocks because they essentially caused the downfall of their race and ruined it.

[Makabreska]

I agree. For years and years I have championed for the cause of making void elf paladins playable.

You mean, entire 2 years?

[Saltysquidoon]

Any lore to back that up?

Exarch Othaar Literally turns into a Man'ari? Tyrant Velhari? Adept Vatrusta? Every single Man'ari?
Every Eredar pre and post fall who plays with fell gets the Man'ari.

[Makorus]

Exarch Othaar Literally turns into a Man'ari? Tyrant Velhari? Adept Vatrusta? Every single Man'ari?
Every Eredar pre and post fall who plays with fell gets the Man'ari.

There are plenty Draenei warlocks who are not Manari.

[Varodoc]

You mean, entire 2 years?

I'll have you know it's 3 years. Do you know how much shit goes down in 3 years?