Class restrictions are not lore friendly

[Ielenia]

Misha is a bear... wait... does this mean Rexxar tamed a druid?

Mishka. Similar names, each to get confused. :P

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We really are.

We're really not, and just in case you missed it the first time:

And even if we were one of the most powerful characters on Azeroth, that doesn't change the fact that our origins are of the average person. We're not "chosen from birth" characters. We're still the "son of farmer Joe", so to speak, even if we end up in a journey to greatness.

[Schattenlied]

If you think that rogues need to be as strong as warriors then you're following wrong lore.

You completely misinterpreted that post.


He said by the logic that Draenei can't be Rogues because they are too big then Orcs shouldn't be either because they are just as large, and yet they can... And that same logic (X race shouldn't be class Y because their size prohibits it)also dictates that a class which requires great feats of strength, like Warriors, should not be able to be applied to races that are frail, small, and weak, like Gnomes... And yet they can be Warriors.

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We're really not, and just in case you missed it the first time:

We really are, and I didn't miss it the first time, it's just completely meaningless in the face of all the crazy shit we can do... The first 10 levels in the new starting experience sees the player character, with no special assistance, do things that no "average joe" would be remotely capable of, and when that's done we're all but immediately handed the Heart of Azeroth and declared to be the Champion of Azeroth.

[mickybrighteyes]

If you think that rogues need to be as strong as warriors then you're following wrong lore.

I think you missed the point. size and strength aren't the issues... first off...

Firstly, about "size" and implied "sneakiness"... kind of a moot point when rogue stealth is magically enhanced. Hence why you can sneak through an open desert/street/field with no physical cover/concealment and still be unseen.

One might argue ideological stances and specific class fantasy. Draenei and Tauren being more honorable upstanding straightforward races IN GENERAL (again, see: Grimtotem/Feltotem) but then there's also the fact that Rogue's haven't exclusively been bandits, thieves, cut-purses exclusively anymore than warriors have.

[Nerovar]

We really are, and I didn't miss it the first time, it's just completely meaningless in the face of all the crazy shit we can do.

All the crazy shit we do is usually not part of the lore (at least not exactly as we experience it in the game). The characters that canonically defeated the Lich King are probably not the same people who defeated Garrosh or Gul'dan. Just because we can play all of these things with our player characters doesn't mean our player characters were the ones who did all these thing canonically.

[Schattenlied]

All the crazy shit we do is usually not part of the lore (at least not exactly as we experience it in the game). The characters that canonically defeated the Lich King are probably not the same people who defeated Garrosh or Gul'dan. Just because we can play all of these things with our player characters doesn't mean our player characters were the ones who did all these thing canonically.

Yes, our character is not literally "the hero" canonically, canonically they don't even exist... They are a representation of the heroes who do all the crazy shit.... Which means they are not a representation of the average joe, not even a little.

[Venziir]

If you think that rogues need to be as strong as warriors then you're following wrong lore.



Single cases aren't really good point. Same as Anduin wearing plate.



DKs to be DKs need... magic and to be raised from dead. Rogues? They need to be agile, sneaky. You won't hide behind the barrel if you're size of the 3 barrels... And draenei/taurens are like that.

Inb4 "but in the cinematics they are invisible and use magics!" yes, but they aren't doing that all the time. They have limits and there are rogues who aren't using that kind of stealth.

Probably good that I mentioned "plenty of draenei rogues skulking around in WoD" then

[mickybrighteyes]

All the crazy shit we do is usually not part of the lore (at least not exactly as we experience it in the game). The characters that canonically defeated the Lich King are probably not the same people who defeated Garrosh or Gul'dan. Just because we can play all of these things with our player characters doesn't mean our player characters were the ones who did all these thing canonically.

typically our actions arne't part of the lore. Stories like WoD had us taking lead of forces alongside Kadgar.... Legion had us being the premier force of our class faction.... we really were the "Archmage" or "Archdruid"... High Lord of the Silver Hand.... In other class stories that position is filled by another NPC of note, true... but that's still us for THOSE stories. That is what I think they were trying to point out. Hopefully that won't be the case in future stories.

[Saichou]

This is a really bad point because your examples aren't even remotely analogous. You're comparing the dietary habits of a globalized, post-enlightenment, multicultural society to the traditions and knowledge of a tribal race that was until very recently still organized around a nomadic lifestyle with little contact to other races (except for the Centaurs they fought).


Cultures don't evolve in a vacuum and they aren't simply interchangeable, especially not in a medieval setting like this. European absolute monarchies didn't come out of nowhere and neither did the republics and constitutional monarchies that came afterwards.

Sure, technically humans could convert to Druidism but there's nothing in the lore indicating that this is the case for the regular Kingdom of Stormwind human that is playable in WoW. Unlike with Shamanism for the Arathi humans and the weird Gilnean take on Druidism there's simply no history connecting the humans of Stormwind or Lordaeron to these traditions.


This is a really weird argument since it doesn't really support the point you're trying to make. You're still talking about things that are very specifically linked to Vietnamese culture. What you're arguing for is for Vietnamese to have conservation projects to save animals that live at the other end of the world despite having no connection to these animals and not being involved in their potential extinction. WoW depicts races and their cultures as oversimplified caricature in order to magnify their traits and make them look more distinct. Humans are allowed to have a relatively wide range of moral alignments (in terms of classes) because they function as a sort of stand-in for the player moreso than Nelves, Gnomes etc. do because we already have lots of preconceived notions about humans anyways since they actually exist in the real world (and therefor need to be a bit more complex), whereas Nelves, Gnomes etc. are much more moldable which makes them fit into more narrow and specific fantasies. Stretching these fantasies to include all classes and their cultural baggage would simply water down the fantasies of those races and turn them into humans-lite.

Apart form that, even when talking about races that would have an aversion to certain classes and the forces that are connected to these classes, they usually are allowed to fulfill those roles because there exists a certain intersection in the lore. Humans can be Warlocks as a perverted version of the arcane magic which was taught to them originally by the High Elves. For Orcs it was the deception of Kil'Jaeden who abused their trust of the Ancestral Spirits which makes Warlocks a corrupted version of Shamans in terms of culture. It actually makes sense for both to exist in their respective societies even if they are fringe cases. When it comes to the Draenei, their cultural connection to Fel magic is literally the Burning Legion so it wouldn't make sense for them to dabble in it if they're not already a part of the Legion.

I mean, sure, every member of any race can technically become anything but making these very rare exceptions part of the ruleset of the game is just stretching the limits of what people will find immersive. We already had Tauren Paladins joining an Order of Human Knights. You really want this shit to get even more crazy?

1. I mean, sure, the tauren were originally tribal nomads. But they had to be rapidly evolved in order to fit in with the other races. I think that at this point all the races are pretty much equally enlightened and multicultural. Also, the tauren civilization is t e n t h o u s a n d years old. As for the analogy, for one, and I admit that this is my personal opinion and has perhaps little value, but I do think that all races should be equally analogous with eachother. I used tauren in that example, but my point was that I could have used any race as an example. And I think the point still stands.

2. Wow isnt a medieval setting. Human druidism doesn't come out of nowhere. Humans use a lot of lumber, cut down forests and build big bases. You're telling me that no human sees the environmental issues with such actions? I think theres plenty of lore about deforestation and reckless technological advancement for all races.

3. What I am saying is that law and tradition dont regulate humans like theyre robots. Night elves ban magic. Its usage is punishable by law. But some night elves might still violate these laws.
And I dont agree with the argument about humans having more possibilities because we have more preconcived notions. We have preconcieved notions about all the games races. No race has been made up on the spot, they're all based on humans in some way or other.

Also youre saying that draenei cant have warlocks because their connection to fel magic is the burning legion while the only connection that humans and orcs have to fel magic is... also the burning legion.

[Darththeo]

There are lore reasons why.

I thought they were setting up more Race/Class combos in Legion when I played the Paladin Class Order missions and we gained a Night Elf who chose to become a Paladin. We have a starting point for her race to be Paladin's, so maybe after BfA and Shadowlands we return to find that several Night elves began to train as Paladins.

Adding classes to Worgen, Goblins and Pandaren were problematic due to their racial openings ... it was essentially already established what was there prior to their joining the factions. However, with this new opening, it allows them to more easily add new Race/Class combos.

[Schattenlied]

3. What I am saying is that law and tradition dont regulate humans like theyre robots. Night elves ban magic. Its usage is punishable by law. But some night elves might still violate these laws.

Not to mention a Night Elf who wanted to learn Arcane magic before that ban was lifted may simply decide to leave Night Elven society to move to Stormwind or the Exodar and seek training as a Mage from the Humans or Draenei there.

[Saichou]

Eazy
Im not saying that rogues need to be strong.
Youre saying that draenei and tauren are too big to be rogues. Following that logic, orcs also shouldnt be able to be rogues.
And also following that logic, goblin, gnomes, undead and belves shouldnt be warriors because warriors need to be strong and big, while these races are weak and small.

[mickybrighteyes]

These organizations already exist, more or less, independent of faction, even. The Order Halls.

i'm not entirely sure I'd agree. the order halls were specific to the classes, yes. And some npc's present would fit the bill...

But I'm talking more about rebranding classes and embedding them into the racial factions. I'd also rather not touch the order halls again anytime soon (partly because some of them were tossed into plot holes with weird stuff like the paladin hall kicking out horde and turalyon taking them into war on the front lines)

[Schattenlied]

i'm not entirely sure I'd agree. the order halls were specific to the classes, yes. And some npc's present would fit the bill...

But I'm talking more about rebranding classes and embedding them into the racial factions. I'd also rather not touch the order halls again anytime soon (partly because some of them were tossed into plot holes with weird stuff like the paladin hall kicking out horde and turalyon taking them into war on the front lines)

That happened because Liadrin and her Paladins waged war on the Alliance when the rest of the Horde did... Kicking them out kinda made sense.

[mickybrighteyes]

That happened because Liadrin and her Paladins waged war on the Alliance when the rest of the Horde did... Kicking them out kinda made sense.

Yes it makes sense. The issue is more that there really should have been more lore about it. There's more info on Talanji's capture.... which is a joke in itself because that isn't discussed in any lore either.

edit:

figuring this out because we look at the rotation of bosses on a warfront was a poor way to make this known. The Talanji thing at least gets a mention as part of lore events.

[Eazy]

You completely misinterpreted that post.
He said by the logic that Draenei can't be Rogues because they are too big then Orcs shouldn't be either because they are just as large, and yet they can... And that same logic (X race shouldn't be class Y because their size prohibits it)also dictates that a class which requires great feats of strength, like Warriors, should not be able to be applied to races that are frail, small, and weak, like Gnomes... And yet they can be Warriors.

Don't think I did. Draenei are larger and I don't care about warriors.

I think you missed the point. size and strength aren't the issues... first off...

Firstly, about "size" and implied "sneakiness"... kind of a moot point when rogue stealth is magically enhanced. Hence why you can sneak through an open desert/street/field with no physical cover/concealment and still be unseen.

Read the rest of my post.
Stealth isn't always magicaly enhanced and there are limits for that.

Probably good that I mentioned "plenty of draenei rogues skulking around in WoD" then

Weren't they hunters? I mean the ones with camouflage?

[Schattenlied]

Don't think I did. Draenei are larger

Taller by a whole 2 inches, whoopdedo.

And not as wide.

Weren't they hunters? I mean the ones with camouflage?

Some were Hunters with bows, some were using 2 daggers, AKA Rogues. Melee Hunters weren't a thing during WoD, Survival was still a ranged spec.

[Eazy]

Taller by a whole 2 inches, whoopdedo.

And not as wide.

Yes, and they have hooves and are more honorable.

I know only one good orc rogue... and that's Garona. Who's smaller than normal orc. Not saying that there aren't other rogues, but Garona is most famous and really achieved something compared to others. Size really matters for rogues.

[Schattenlied]

Yes, and they have hooves

Which can be padded and therefore isn't relevant... Worgen have non-retractable claws on their feet, they'd make lots of noise too when walking on any hard surface like stone paving.

and are more honorable.

Not all Rogues are dishonorable... I'd struggle to call Mathias Shaw, for example, dishonorable.

Size really matters for rogues.

The Grimtotem would disagree.. So would the Kul Trian, who are both taller and wider than Draenei and can be Rogues.

[Ielenia]

We really are, and I didn't miss it the first time, it's just completely meaningless in the face of all the crazy shit we can do...

Then you're not really reading what was written. It doesn't matter what our characters become "great heroes" at the later half of their lives. For us to be classes "outside cultural norms and unexplained by lore", like blood elf druids or draenei warlocks, we have to be "special/unique" from the get-go, and we're not. We're "the average son of average Joe".

The first 10 levels in the new starting experience sees the player character, with no special assistance, do things that no "average joe" would be remotely capable of,

Except... all we do during the leveling is what the "average joe in the military" does.

[Nerovar]

1. I mean, sure, the tauren were originally tribal nomads. But they had to be rapidly evolved in order to fit in with the other races. I think that at this point all the races are pretty much equally enlightened and multicultural. Also, the tauren civilization is t e n t h o u s a n d years old. As for the analogy, for one, and I admit that this is my personal opinion and has perhaps little value, but I do think that all races should be equally analogous with eachother. I used tauren in that example, but my point was that I could have used any race as an example. And I think the point still stands.

I honestly don't know where you're getting this from. The events of WoW span 10 years canonically. The Orcs settled in Durotar only 14 years ago which basically also marks the point in which all races of Azeroth got into contact with each other. Three years prior to that Orcs were still in human internment camps and were viewed as little more than beasts by most humans. Do you honestly believe that this is a timespan in which every WoW race becomes "equally enlightened and multicultural"?

2. Wow isnt a medieval setting. Human druidism doesn't come out of nowhere. Humans use a lot of lumber, cut down forests and build big bases. You're telling me that no human sees the environmental issues with such actions? I think theres plenty of lore about deforestation and reckless technological advancement for all races.

Is this a troll? Are you equating "using lumber"/interacting with nature to some degree with the very specific cultural practice of Druidism? Also human usage of natural ressources is never displayed as problematic in World of Warcraft. That part has always been part of Orc culture (that specific part is probably rooted in Tolkien's Orcs).

3. What I am saying is that law and tradition dont regulate humans like theyre robots. Night elves ban magic. Its usage is punishable by law. But some night elves might still violate these laws.
And I dont agree with the argument about humans having more possibilities because we have more preconcived notions. We have preconcieved notions about all the games races. No race has been made up on the spot, they're all based on humans in some way or other.

Firstly, Night Elves don't ban magic anymore. When they did, mages were unplayable because you're playing a Darnassian Night Elf. When they made them playable they gave a specific lore explanation for that (which was that the remaining Shen'dralar rejoined Kaldorei society).
Secondly, no of course humans are not robots that are forced to do x but neither are they completely free from the boundaries that are imposed upon them by the cultures they are born into. My argument in regards to humans being able to fill a wider variety of roles was that we already know a lot about humans therefor it makes no sense for Blizzard to redefine humans as something completely different which is why we expect humans to be more "complex" like they are in the real world and range from evil warlocks to noble paladins. Elves and Gnomes on the other hand are usually based on small, very specific parts of different human cultures and present a caricature or an idealized version of that which obviously doesn't allow for the same variety.

Also youre saying that draenei cant have warlocks because their connection to fel magic is the burning legion while the only connection that humans and orcs have to fel magic is... also the burning legion.

You misunderstood my point. Humans and Orcs are allowed to be Warlocks because they have pathways to fel magic that make sense like the following two:
- a mage dabbling in forbidden knowledge because of the nature of Arcane magic (being addictive, attracting demons etc.))
- Ner'zhul being deceived by demons because he was prone to listening to Spirits which ultimately lead to more Orcs adopting the practice of fel magic

In the case of the Draenei, there was no conduit like that because the "conversion" to Fel magic also marks the point in which they split off from the Eredar race. They already made the decision to not dabble in fel magic and to deny its power which is why they became Draenei in the first place. While Orcs might think of their conquest that was partially enabled by the use of fel magic, Draenei will only remember the devastation of their people and their home because of the forces associated with it. There's just no positive connotation there at all.