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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    Yeah, I've quoted the wrong person, sorry, I meant to quote the guy under you.
    Ah that makes much more sense.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    1. Let's say you want to unlock flight.

    Instead of meaningless shit like doing all the quests in new zones and unlocking 6 reputations, why not something like:

    -> Complete all the quests in the new zones and complete these aerial challenges on hard difficulty (a race challenge, an aerial combat challenge, etc)

    2. Let's say you want to become exalted with a race.

    Instead of meaningless shit like doing the same repeatable quests to honored, revered, exalted, why not instead:

    -> Complete the introductory quest for this faction, then these other story chains which will explore the story of these factions through quests, dungeons and exploration of lore items in the world, interlaced with personal challenges that require your skill as a solo player to overcome.

    3. Let's say you want to level a profession.

    Instead of crafting shit items over and over to get some levels, why not instead:

    -> Have the option to go around the world to for example fix NPC's sword and armor, or enchant their gear, or do this even for players, giving you a skill level for say every 5 people helped.

    I keep seeing this shit argument for the past 15 years about how "players are entitled and want easy rewards and you should be rewarded only for wasting this many hours in game doing shit tasks" to why I always reply: why? Why the fuck should we content ourselves to be masochistic instead of demanding more challenging/mentally stimulating, more interactive and more fun content?
    having to do all the quests in every zone is stupidly flawed and has been for years. Take Legion for instance you get to max level with 1 zone not touched at all, Why TF would I ever want to go back and do a complete zones worth of quests once Im max level? I have despised this thought since it was introduced. Now with 100% buff it takes like 1-1.5 zones.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Heigan's Safety Dance but it's a climbing puzzle.
    The safty dance was easy. Lol. I made my guild stay outside of it and two manned it with 1 healer just to make sure they didnt mess up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Mainly for the gold.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    You know what im just going to call you on this. You don't know a ton of players who used to raid high end that simply transmog run now. You might know a few that shoot the shit and run a heroic raid beer run style but no I don't believe people who actively searched out challenging content suddenly started enjoying mindless grinding. I can see them doing transmog runs for a while but even if your after a rare drop that isn't a sustainable activity for any length of time.
    I raided hardcore back in College when I had most of my day to piss away on wow, Now I just want to do mindless crap when I play games at night for the 3-4 hours I have after wife and kids are in bed. I don't have any interest in doing raids unless they are on Normal mode or are on farm for the particular group im playing with. I get no enjoyment out of mindlessly wiping for hours on the same boss. I have always played the game for Loot, now I can get pretty damn good gear without having to raid top tier content so why would I waste my time.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    The safty dance was easy. Lol. I made my guild stay outside of it and two manned it with 1 healer just to make sure they didnt mess up.
    The safety dance was VERY hard and almost impossible for many back in the day because a lot of people still used dialup or had very slow computers. Their ping was simply too high and their fps was too low to react in time.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  6. #126
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    The safty dance was easy. Lol. I made my guild stay outside of it and two manned it with 1 healer just to make sure they didnt mess up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Mainly for the gold.
    Safety dance was easy, but plenty of people still fucked it up even in WotLK, either due to ping issues, playing on potato battery-powered machines, or just not being good with spatial awareness. Imagine the shitshow it would've been if verticality were incorporated into the fight.

    edit: Basically, what Kokolums said. The dance was easy when you had a good rig and broadband internet, but most players running dialup on a dinosaur were getting worse ping than the Mars Curiosity rover and it showed in that fight.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    What in the unholy fuck?

    Yes, I suppose that's one way to do it. Or you can split it in multiple (2-3) challenges that are each let's say 60% of the difficulty of a 5 mask vision, to make it doable by everyone. Or you could have the option to do one challenge that hard, or multiple lower level difficulty challenges.

    And no...I never once asked anyone to adapt to that level of challenge, I am open to any alternatives to meaningless, brain dead grinds.

    And as for the closest we have in-game right now...have you never done Mage tower or other Legion activities in Suramar?
    there are SO MUCH possibilities to make wow an interesting and challenging game that makes it more fun to play besides the typical mmorpg aspects and the collectors/completionist stuff. but i assume, after all that years, blizz is not interested in investing time and money into that.

    and they stick waaaaay to conservative to their wow base concept (and always had) to ever change stuff/concepts or add cool and challenging stuff/concepts. maybe they are feared of „when wow no longer works this way all ppl leave“ or something (never change a running system... and so on). dont know.

    the best example here, where you can see this clearly, are puzzles. they are always flat and piss easy. they could do giant puzzle or riddle systems that makes the game super fun, interessting and challenging. like in the old days of tomb raider 1 or 2. but their riddles are that piss easy in fear that 12 year old fuck stupid kid could not solve it and be pissed. giant puzzles are 0 problem in 2020 because every idiot could just use 1 of 1000 websites to look what to do. all other could have fun in game. wow is a giant platform for such stuff and have the potential to do soooo great stuff in the reagrds of challenging comtent, smart content, interessting content. that huge potential is completely wasted.

    in the end wow is a way more bad game than it could be. it is the ONLY game in the universe that have SUCH a great platform for being more than this. it has a HUGE potential. but that platform and possibilities are completely wasted. imo just cause of greed and being conservative and milk the cow as much as possible with the things that always worked in the past. blizz in 1990 had the balls to do great new stuff. blizz in 2020 repeat that stuff since 20+ years, because their balls are now as huge as a peanut (a very small one).
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-04-29 at 12:17 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    there are SO MUCH possibilities to make wow an interesting and challenging game that makes it more fun to play besides the typical mmorpg aspects and the collectors/completionist stuff. but i assume, after all that years, blizz is not interested in investing time and money into that.

    and they stick waaaaay to conservative to their wow base concept (and always had) to ever change stuff/concepts or add cool and challenging stuff/concepts. maybe they are feared of „when wow no longer works this way all ppl leave“ or something (never change a running system... and so on). dont know.

    the best example here, where you can see this clearly, are puzzles. they are always flat and piss easy. they could do giant puzzle or riddle systems that makes the game super fun, interessting and challenging. like in the old days of tomb raider 1 or 2. but their riddles are that piss easy in fear that 12 year old fuck stupid kid could not solve it and be pissed. giant puzzles are 0 problem in 2020 because every idiot could just use 1 of 1000 websites to look what to do. all other could have fun in game. wow is a giant platform for such stuff and have the potential to do soooo great stuff in the reagrds of challenging comtent, smart content, interessting content. that huge potential is completely wasted.

    in the end wow is a way more bad game than it could be. it is the ONLY game in the universe that have SUCH a great platform for being more than this. it has a HUGE potential. but that platform and possibilities are completely wasted. imo just cause of greed and being conservative and milk the cow as much as possible with the things that always worked in the past. blizz in 1990 had the balls to do great new stuff. blizz in 2020 repeat that stuff since 20+ years, because their balls are now as huge as a peanut (a very small one).
    If I want to play a puzzle game, I'll play a puzzle game. It's fine to say other games can do complex puzzles better and leave it at that. The lack of complex puzzles is not at all an indicator of quality in a game that never claimed it wanted to do that.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The safety dance was VERY hard and almost impossible for many back in the day because a lot of people still used dialup or had very slow computers. Their ping was simply too high and their fps was too low to react in time.
    Hard for bad players. I literally sat my raid team outside the door and two manned it with just me tanking and a holy priest for heals.

    And my set up was old even by the standards of the time. I averaged 10fps.

  10. #130
    I watched this video and wanted to make a thread about it.
    Realized this thread existed...so there is absolutely zero need to make another one.

    Blizzard has no idea what to do in order to make us enjoy grinding.
    The only content people enjoy grinding is Dungeons, Raids, PvP. And you cant even grind raids so...is only Dungeons and PvP actually.
    Let me tell you my personal opinion on this topic:

    Tab Target combat + mindless grind + daily/weekly caps + No Deep RPG Customization (to create variety u need to play a different class) = Perfect Recipe for boredom

    Tab target combat is already less engaging
    Add to this a mindless grind and a mechanic to prolong it for you to do it everyday, weeks or months
    Perfect Combo for Boredom

    WoW is too corporate...to the point of Ion having no clue about the concept of "RPG".
    Or maybe they KNOW exactly what RPG is...BUT they believe "RPG doesnt bring the big bucks to the company" <------probably this actually

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I find this all very depressing.. I can understand complex tasks but even those can be broken into small piece meal problems. Take visions...

    If your struggling surely you start to take notice of what is hindering you right? You notice mobs that are more dangerous either from their ability to stun or inflict sanity damage. If you find yourself losing insanity you have to take notice of the potions and learn how to tell what ones will harm you and what ones will help you... None of this is even talking about the optional buffs that greatly increase your output.

    There are so many tools eventually your average play has to learn how to use them even if it is just one at a time.
    Because tons of people play games purely to relax and seek absolutely no challenge from it whatsoever. That's the entire point of very popular games like The Sims or Animal Crossing, and difficulty settings in almost any game that isn't either purely multiplayer or Dark Souls. And WoW, with its varying difficulties, fairly high levels of character customization, wide swathes of possible activities in 15 years's worth of content, and roleplaying potential attracts these players, and in far greater numbers than those who want to parse on Mythic bosses, get Gladiator or down +20 keys.

    I want to improve in games. I usually play the most difficult settings, and enjoy getting my teeth kicked in by bosses like Isshin in Sekiro or the Marauder in Doom Eternal. By contrast, my taste in physical activities limit themselves to leisure cycling and walking. A good friend of mine is the total opposite; he goes to the gym at least 4 times per week and trains like his life depended on it, and when he's not you'll usually find him playing soccer with friends that are quite good. When he plays games, more often than not he plays FIFA against the easy AI and stomps it, or something along those lines. Difficulty in games just frustrate him a lot and he sees 0 reasons to improve, and it's not because he's a lazy sub-human but just because that's just where his tastes lie. Even among my gamer friends most don't look for a particular challenge except for the one that PvPs a lot in Destiny 2 and even then losing too much annoys the hell out of him.

    That's how it is in most every game. Look at Steam achievements for example, the number of people that actually finish games in the first place can be shockingly low, under 20% sometimes. For games that have different achievements based on difficulties, you can easily see a massive crash in participation as you go higher. Most players are casual who don't want to push themselves too hard in their spare time and it makes sense for Blizzard to design for them. The game always had hard content for those willing to seek it.

  12. #132
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I watched this video and wanted to make a thread about it.
    Realized this thread existed...so there is absolutely zero need to make another one.



    Blizzard has no idea what to do in order to make us enjoy grinding.
    The only content people enjoy grinding is Dungeons, Raids, PvP. And you cant even grind raids so...is only Dungeons and PvP actually.
    Let me tell you my personal opinion on this topic:

    Tab Target combat So Action Combat then? + mindless grind + daily/weekly caps Clearly you don't want to do anything beyond a single time + No Deep RPG Customization(to create variety u need to play a different class) = Perfect Recipe for boredom

    Tab target combat is already less engaging
    Add to this a mindless grind and a mechanic to prolong it for you to do it everyday, weeks or months
    Perfect Combo for Boredom

    WoW is too corporate...to the point of Ion having no clue about the concept of "RPG".
    Or maybe they KNOW exactly what RPG is...BUT they believe "RPG doesnt bring the big bucks to the company" <------probably this actually
    There isn't a single MMO I can think of that has anything even close to all of this.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    There are levels here.

    I agree it shouldn't be super difficult all the time, but seriously, a world quest where you could pull 20 mobs at once and aoe them all down, with the biggest problem being leashing, is just dumb. There has to be SOMETHING that you need to pay attention to.
    I'm not sure that's the kind of content people are generally looking for a challenge in.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I'm not sure that's the kind of content people are generally looking for a challenge in.
    Do you feel any kind of emotion when you kill mobs doing a world quest?

    People usually use the argument "Meh, i just want to sit back and relax/enjoy"
    But enjoy what exactly?
    There is nothing to enjoy here

    Is tab target combat, is mindless grind AND you play exactly the same for 2 years without any kind of deep customization

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    There are plenty of people who've done them over the past few years who want games to have some sort of difficulty, and it's basically required content for those who do. It's stupid.
    Maybe there are a few of them, but are they in any significant number such that Blizzard needs to divert resources to appease them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Do you feel any kind of emotion when you kill mobs doing a world quest?

    People usually use the argument "Meh, i just want to sit back and relax/enjoy"
    But enjoy what exactly?
    There is nothing to enjoy here

    Is tab target combat, is mindless grind AND you play exactly the same for 2 years without any kind of deep customization
    Sometimes, yeah. But I'm the type of person who just enjoys blowing stuff up in games. I don't generally have much fun when I'm in a lot of danger, or dying a lot while out in the world. That is where the game starts to get tedious for me. I like it when I feel like an unstoppable juggernaut. I suppose that's why I liked Warframe, for example.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    There is nothing to enjoy here
    That's unfortunately the problem, because there is something for them to enjoy: they get rewards still. Sometimes they get lottery luck rewards at that, thanks to titanforging.

    They get fancy pixels via grinding old raids, etc. Most of these people who want to relax and just faceroll get some stimulation just from the act of (ableit easily) manipulating their character, carelessly pushing buttons, and they also get enjoyment in the form pf rewards for their mediocrity.

    Sometimes, yeah. But I'm the type of person who just enjoys blowing stuff up in games. I don't generally have much fun when I'm in a lot of danger, or dying a lot while out in the world. That is where the game starts to get tedious for me. I like it when I feel like an unstoppable juggernaut. I suppose that's why I liked Warframe, for example.
    That shit loses meaning when you do it for more than 10 minutes, though. "Ahhh yep! I'm a god... nothing can stop me..." There's no point in doing something when you KNOW beyond a doubt you can do it 100% no question.

    Jumping an inch isn't fun or meaningful because everyone and their brother can do it. How you can manage to trick yourself into thinking the equivalent of doing that meaningless task is something more grand like "LOLOLOL I'M GOD IN THIS VIDEO GAME!" is beyond me. I guess visuals help sell it to you instead of acknowledging the reality?
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2020-04-29 at 04:59 PM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Sometimes, yeah. But I'm the type of person who just enjoys blowing stuff up in games. I don't generally have much fun when I'm in a lot of danger, or dying a lot while out in the world. That is where the game starts to get tedious for me. I like it when I feel like an unstoppable juggernaut. I suppose that's why I liked Warframe, for example.
    But maybe there is a middle ground to have here?

    It doesnt need to be difficult.
    It just needs to make 1 single cell of our brain to be active (>_<)
    Which i know is hard because wow is tab target....

    Bah, maybe there is nothing that can be done because of the combat.
    If each mob has an ability to dodge...suddenly you can no longer pull several mobs.

    This is why i hate tab target....maybe is time for me to move on to other things...

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    But maybe there is a middle ground to have here?

    It doesnt need to be difficult.
    It just needs to make 1 single cell of our brain to be active (>_<)
    Which i know is hard because wow is tab target....

    Bah, maybe there is nothing that can be done because of the combat.
    If each mob has an ability to dodge...suddenly you can no longer pull several mobs.

    This is why i hate tab target....maybe is time for me to move on to other things...
    There are many other games that don’t have tab target and it sounds like you would have more fun playing one of those.

    Some people enjoy the less twitchy nature of tab target.

    I grew up with final fantasy, chrono trigger, and other turn based RPGs.

    There was no fancy dodging or twitch. All very straightforward encounters. Take turns hitting each other, no aiming, etc

    But for me they were still tons of fun.
    Last edited by Argorwal; 2020-04-29 at 05:36 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    WoW is too corporate...to the point of Ion having no clue about the concept of "RPG".
    Or maybe they KNOW exactly what RPG is...BUT they believe "RPG doesnt bring the big bucks to the company" <------probably this actually
    Have you watched the video you linked? It says, that game devs are often very intelligent and that they know what they are doing. And here you are talking crap on Ion. He was one of the players, I am pretty sure he knows what an RPG is.
    Have you ever had a supervisory/managerial job role in a corporate environment? I can't get an AC for my team installed without running through 9 circles of hell to get it approved if it's over 10k in value.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Have you watched the video you linked? It says, that game devs are often very intelligent and that they know what they are doing. And here you are talking crap on Ion. He was one of the players, I am pretty sure he knows what an RPG is.
    Have you ever had a supervisory/managerial job role in a corporate environment? I can't get an AC for my team installed without running through 9 circles of hell to get it approved if it's over 10k in value.
    Yes, i paid attention to that part of the video Thats why i ended with that quote

    Im still in shock Ion wants to flip the covenant system into not having a "wrong choice".
    He wants all covenants to be good in every type of content.

    This scares me they want everything to be perfectly balanced to the point of customization being all an illusion.
    The Blizzard way: Make everyone happy at the cost of losing everything RPG

    I gave up at that point

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