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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Psykho View Post
    Personally I think Warlock could have their own version of Metamorphosis with multiple thing separating them for example something like Warlocks meta being more monstrous and perhaps having a mechanic where you can stay in it permanently but at a certain point it has a mechanic where it causes more harm than good to fit thematically with Warlocks pursuing power at great risk to themselves
    I always thought so too. I felt the Warlock was mechanically different enough to warrant having both, but Blizzard begged to differ.

    I mean honestly the Warlock's use of Meta was always Ranged, while the DH's use is modified to be for Melee. That right there is enough of a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I think it translates very well, all we need are the aesthetics.

  2. #102
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    What bombs do Moonkins shoot out? Also a Mech using cat and bear mechanics wouldn't work. The Mechs are loaded with ranged abilities and very few melee attacks.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post

    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post

    Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I think it translates very well, all we need are the aesthetics.

    Yeah but you have to consider the theme of the class itself. Why would a Druid, a nature-based caster who transforms into animals and trees, willingly embrace technology that uses natural resources (what they generally protect and guard) as fuel. It completely goes against the core philosophy of the class.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    What bombs do Moonkins shoot out? Also a Mech using cat and bear mechanics wouldn't work. The Mechs are loaded with ranged abilities and very few melee attacks.
    you don't understand what a class skin is do you? The abilities appearances would work well with electricity and explosions. You were willing to accept ghost busters as tinkers and now ur crything that the mechs wouldnt have range skills????? Growl is a ranged ability, and you can even get moonkin skills in cat and bear form like moonfire. Also moonkin could be the ranged mech.

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Yeah but you have to consider the theme of the class itself. Why would a Druid, a nature-based caster who transforms into animals and trees, willingly embrace technology that uses natural resources (what they generally protect and guard) as fuel. It completely goes against the core philosophy of the class.
    The whole point of a class skin is to change a class into something its not without altering the actual abilities it uses. You would no longer be playing a druid you would be playing a tinker, just like if you turned a lock into a necro.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-04-28 at 09:10 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I've been consistent on this for years. Necromancer = Warlock Glyph.



    The archetypal Necromancer is a light armored, plague and disease wielding, undead raising magic caster. DK is a melee fighter first, so it's not an appropriate substitute. DK is the Paladin to the Priest. It's much cleaner to just do a Warlock enhancement vs design a completely new class and have to balance more specs or try to force a DK into becoming a caster via a 4th spec.

    First and foremost.... mechanics. Warlocks are mechanically inline with what a Necromancer is. Primarily a magic user, one who uses dark magic to raise undead, spread disease and rot their opponents with strong DoTs. We already have that foundation built with the Warlock. What's nice about this, vs a DK 4th spec is instead of 1 spec, you now have 3 specialized Necro specs:

    Demonology - Demons = Undead, and the spec becomes a Necromancer who focuses on controlling an undead army as his or her primary expertise.
    Destruction - Fire = Frost, destro would become the equivalent of a Lich, and let people explore a Kel'Thuzad-style Necromancer.
    Affliction - Shadow/Void based DoTs = Blood/Disease based DoTs, this is the DoT based Necromancer who would prefer to rot away opponents with disease and poison.

    Shadowlands would be a perfect time to add something like this. I'll list out some examples of specific changes I think would happen, and these art assets already exist in game and many more options are being added in the upcoming expansion.

    Your Demons will convert to Undead:
    Voidwalker (tank) - Skeletal Warrior
    Felhunter (interrupt/dispell) - Skeletal Assassin
    Succubus (cc/invis) - Skeletal Archer
    Felguard (AOE dps) - Abomination with radiating plague damage.

    Grimoire of Supremacy can jack up all of those base models to use some of the really cool Shadowlands undead minions.


    Void/Shadow magic and Fel/Fire magic becomes Blood and Frost:
    Incinerate - Icy Bolt
    Immolate - Deathchill
    Cataclysm (Talent) - Death and Decay
    Corruption - Plague
    etc

    Some things still fit just fine:
    Drain Life / Soul
    Life Tap
    Ritual of Summoning
    Curses
    etc

    My end argument is that I view a Necromancer as primarily a magic user. And I view Warlocks as a Mage who will use forbidden magics. I simply view Necromancer as a specific TYPE of Warlock. A single glyph that modifies the flavor of your spells basically completely fulfills the fantasy.
    Yeah that's what necromancers really should be. They can and should do the same with the other classes too. A lot of "flavour" can be added to the game without ruining the gameplay.

    Necromancers could also work as a spec, but yeah as a class they're definitely nonsense since we've got warlocks and DK's

  6. #106
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    you don't understand what a class skin is do you? The abilities appearances would work well with electricity and explosions. You were willing to accept ghost busters as tinkers and now ur crything that the mechs wouldnt have range skills????? Growl is a ranged ability, and you can even get moonkin skills in cat and bear form like moonfire. Also moonkin could be the ranged mech.
    In order for that to work, you would have to create new animations and hitboxes for the Mech forms and their abilities. At that point you might as well be making a new class.

    I was willing to accept Ghostbusters as Tinkers if that's the direction Blizzard wanted to go. However, a Tinker being an alternate version of a Druid doesn't make sense.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In order for that to work, you would have to create new animations and hitboxes for the Mech forms and their abilities. At that point you might as well be making a new class.

    I was willing to accept Ghostbusters as Tinkers if that's the direction Blizzard wanted to go. However, a Tinker being an alternate version of a Druid doesn't make sense.
    Why do you assume they would need to change the hitboxes? the mechs could easily be put in the druids normal hit box. New animations like dreadstalkers needed to be changed to skeltons?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Yeah but you have to consider the theme of the class itself. Why would a Druid, a nature-based caster who transforms into animals and trees, willingly embrace technology that uses natural resources (what they generally protect and guard) as fuel. It completely goes against the core philosophy of the class.
    Because the concept is a class reskin; it is a new class with a new theme that reuses existing gameplay.

    Instead of a Gnome and Goblin Druid option, the Druid's gameplay would be translated completely into a Tinker.

    Guardian- Tanky Mech form, using Rage mechanics Guardian spec gameplay. Abilities like Iron Fur and Frenzied Regen would become Deflection and Combat Maintenance.

    Balance - Artillery Mech form, using Rockets and Lasers to balance between Heat and Exhaust resource mechanics. Treants would become Clockwork robots.

    Feral -> Shredder - Combat form that utilizes ambush techniques using a more compact version of a Robogoblin, almost like a Stealth Suit. They could even be riding atop mechanized mounts like the Mechanostriders or Mechanospiders.

    The gameplay would be preserved while giving all new aesthetics to open up to different races that wouldn't normally have access to this gameplay.

    The same can be done for other like concepts. Demon Hunters -> Dragonsworn for example would allow races like Tauren and Gnomes to have access to Demon Hunter style gameplay, flavoured by their connection to Dragons instead (Ebonhorn, Chromie). This could even be given a unique starting questline to show that these characters are actually Dragons in disguise as these races. Another idea is Priests to Bards (Wardrummers), allowing Orcs to have a Priest option while flavouring it to the Wardrummers of Warcraft 3 (Kodo Riders) and to the Warsong Clan.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-04-28 at 09:21 PM.

  9. #109
    Necromancers can be unique by having a spec revolving around bone-themed spells that do physical damage, giving us another physical ranged spec to accompany hunters.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The whole point of a class skin is to change a class into something its not without altering the actual abilities it uses. You would no longer be playing a druid you would be playing a tinker, just like if you turned a lock into a necro.
    So how would that work? So you start out as a Druid and then later on you drastically change what the class is? Do you add a 13th class slot on character creation for Tinker but it's just a Druid mechanically?

    It's not like Warlock into Necro at all. A Necro is pretty much already a Warlock... a magic caster that uses dark and forbidden magics. The theme isn't destroyed its just a reflavor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because the concept is a class reskin; it is a new class with a new theme that reuses existing gameplay.

    Instead of a Gnome and Goblin Druid option, the Druid's gameplay would be translated completely into a Tinker.

    Guardian- Tanky Mech form, using Rage mechanics Guardian spec gameplay. Abilities like Iron Fur and Frenzied Regen would become Deflection and Combat Maintenance.

    Balance - Artillery Mech form, using Rockets and Lasers to balance between Heat and Exhaust resource mechanics. Treants would become Clockwork robots.

    The gameplay would be preserved while giving all new aesthetics to open up to different races that wouldn't normally have access to this gameplay.

    The same can be done for other like concepts. Demon Hunters -> Dragonsworn for example would allow races like Tauren and Gnomes to have access to Demon Hunter style gameplay, flavoured by their connection to Dragons instead (Ebonhorn, Chromie). This could even be given a unique starting questline to show that these characters are actually Dragons in disguise as these races. Another idea is Priests to Bards (Wardrummers), allowing Orcs to have a Priest option while flavouring it to the Wardrummers of Warcraft 3 (Kodo Riders) and to the Warsong Clan.
    So the question I asked the other person:

    How does it work? Do you turn a Druid into the Tinker at some point? Or do they add a whole other class slot for a mechanically identical new class, but it's called Tinker instead?

    Btw I'm not arguing that the mechanics can't be translated I just don't see how it's implemented in a clean way.

  11. #111
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Why do you assume they would need to change the hitboxes? the mechs could easily be put in the druids normal hit box. New animations like dreadstalkers needed to be changed to skeltons?
    Because there's no Druid equivalent to established Tinker abilities like Pocket Factory, Rock-It-Turret, or Xplodium Charge. Also the mechs aren't purely melee, and have never been purely melee. Even Gazlowe's mech in Island Expeditions is mostly ranged. You can't get that from Bear or Cat forms that are almost entirely melee.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    So how would that work? So you start out as a Druid and then later on you drastically change what the class is? Do you add a 13th class slot on character creation for Tinker but it's just a Druid mechanically?

    It's not like Warlock into Necro at all. A Necro is pretty much already a Warlock... a magic caster that uses dark and forbidden magics. The theme isn't destroyed its just a reflavor.
    The very first "class skins" to exist in games and stuff were things like dark paladins who used paladin skills but skinned as evil the entire theme of being a holy warrior is subverted and changed into being an unholy warrior its total opposite. And what would the opposite of a nature lover be? A tech lover.

    On the character select screen the class option for druid could be replaced with tinker for gnomes, goblins, mechangnomes and what ever other non druid races they wanted to add to it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because there's no Druid equivalent to established Tinker abilities like Pocket Factory, Rock-It-Turret, or Xplodium Charge. Also the mechs aren't purely melee, and have never been purely melee. Even Gazlowe's mech in Island Expeditions is mostly ranged. You can't get that from Bear of Cat forms that almost entirely melee.
    AS I have stated before lorewise Gazlowe is not a tinker nor has he ever been. And what fucking tinker has ever been a mother fucking ghost buster?????? And why do you insist on using non lore abilites in your fantasy then cry when someone puts something new into a necro or what ever?

    Pocket factory could become starfall and have mini clockwork gnomes/goblins raining down from the sky from a floating factory.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-04-28 at 09:31 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Necromancers can be unique by having a spec revolving around bone-themed spells that do physical damage, giving us another physical ranged spec to accompany hunters.
    Necromancer issue aside.

    A physical caster would be a headache to balance in pvpa and pvp. Armour, in general, is in such a weird place right now.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    So the question I asked the other person:

    How does it work? Do you turn a Druid into the Tinker at some point? Or do they add a whole other class slot for a mechanically identical new class, but it's called Tinker instead?

    Btw I'm not arguing that the mechanics can't be translated I just don't see how it's implemented in a clean way.
    Answered above - New Class with New theme.

    It has nothing to do with the Druid at all other than use it's gameplay. Gnomes and Goblins don't have access to the Druid class, and it would be an option that would be exclusive to them. In the case of existing Druid classes that want to roll a Tinker, then they would have to roll a new alt. It'd be the same as Allied Races (without the Race Change pay option). Further incentives could be explored, like fast-tracking levels through a special starting zone.

    Like I said, it's effectively a glorified reskin with all gameplay translated. The only exceptions would be Talents, I'd say, which could be completely new and exclusive for the Tinker. By all means, it would be treated as its own class, while keeping color coding of its base class for Raid purposes (unless gameplay ends up being very different). The idea is a more extreme version of the current Hunter treatment for Gnomes and Goblins, where they have access to Mech pets. So instead of any connection to Druidism, they would be redirected to their own 'Dreamgrove'.

    The concept is basically reusing existing specs and gameplay to open up to multiple new classes at once, so that the game's balance wouldn't be affected by the introduction of completely new mechanics. At most it would be balanced around new talents at most, and that's only in the instances where new Talents are even warranted. Like in my example, Force of Nature (Treants) could be reappropriated as Pocket Factory (Clockwork Goblins) and it would generally be the same mechanically; with or without the Pocket Factory visual.

    As for items and gear, I would say they use generic Leather gear with the same stats as any other class. Like Monks, they could have special transmogs and heirlooms that allow them to retain the Tinker flavour through their journey. On top of that, you would likely be using Forms for most of your combat. Tier gear and such would simply be omitted for the interim, and I'm sure there could be a Legacy mechanics added to the game to accomodate for all 'Subclasses' doing old world content without losing out on anything specific like Legion's Artifacts or other specialized gear.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-04-28 at 09:40 PM.

  15. #115
    I already have plenty of Unholy DK's and Warlocks in my roster.

    Bring on the Tinker and tech-based tanking.

    As for ideas to bake classes into one-another to reduce the total of Classes on the selection screen: Fuck that. I'm sure some other MMORPGs do that for those seeking it.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sure it would. It works like a Talent system; the more exclusive talents you have available the better you can diverify and customize your build. Same goes with Classes, really.

    If you didn't have a Paladin, then Priest would be the only Holy magic user in the game, and that would be a lack of diversity. Same with Warlocks being the only Fel magic user; Demon Hunters diversify that profile and what Warlocks lost with Metamorphosis, they gained with a revamped spec that fulfills their role as a master summoner. Now you have two diverse options to play a Fel-magic user.
    I never played Metamorphosis on Warlock that much, but wasn't the playstyle predominantly taken away for the Shadow Priest? I mean, Void Form seems more similar to the old metamorphosis playstyle than current DH Meta is.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    Tinker really wouldn't work as a class skin.
    I disagree. It may not match what you would want the Tinker class to be exactly, but using the Druid as a base would get you a tank, healer, ranged and melee dps class that can use a variety of forms with reflavoured abilities to match the Tinker theme.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The very first "class skins" to exist in games and stuff were things like dark paladins who used paladin skills but skinned as evil the entire theme of being a holy warrior is subverted and changed into being an unholy warrior its total opposite. And what would the opposite of a nature lover be? A tech lover.

    On the character select screen the class option for druid could be replaced with tinker for gnomes, goblins, mechangnomes and what ever other non druid races they wanted to add to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It has nothing to do with the Druid at all other than use it's gameplay. Gnomes and Goblins don't have access to the Druid class, and it would be an option that would be exclusive to them. In the case of existing Druid classes that want to roll a Tinker, then they would have to roll a new alt. It'd be the same as Allied Races (without the Race Change pay option). Further incentives could be explored, like fast-tracking levels through a special starting zone.

    Like I said, it's effectively a glorified reskin with all gameplay translated. The only exceptions would be Talents, I'd say, which could be completely new and exclusive for the Tinker.

    The concept is basically reusing existing specs and gameplay to open up to multiple new classes at once, so that the game's balance wouldn't be affected by the introduction of completely new mechanics. At most it would be balanced around new talents at most, and that's only in the instances where new Talents are even warranted. Like in my example, Force of Nature (Treants) could be reappropriated as Pocket Factory (Clockwork Goblins) and it would generally be the same mechanically; with or without the Pocket Factory visual.
    So in this case Tinker would be considered the 13th class, available at character selection. No actual ties to Druid at all? I think that could work, I just think Blizzard would have to package it as like a "Paragon Class", because it's just reusing Druid mechanics and not a "new" class like "allied" races.

    I think it's possible to reskin the mechanics, but I don't think an already existing druid character should be altered to become a tinker.

    What is convenient though is (as far as I can tell) no existing races that could be druid would fit well for tinker so it would just be opening up the class to races that couldn't play druid anyway.

    I think I'd be in agreement with this I'd just have to really look at all of the Druid spells and be able to see a Tinker equivalent - it also would require a ton of art and FX work because unlike Warlock - Necro glyph, there wouldn't really be any overlapping abilities that can stay, every ability and talent would need to be renamed and reskinned.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, you mean pretty much exactly what Warlocks do with Soulstone?
    No? I am speaking of the Shaman Reincarnation ability, which would be more similar to how a Phylectary works. Or something similar to the Holy Spirit of Priests, where a Necromancer can turn into a Lich for a short duration of time after death. Which could be something for a DPS Spec and even creat a great synergy with Paladins, as their damage is also increased upon someone dying. Tinker doesn't synergizes well with any class and I don't see what it would bring that makes it favorable to Blood DKs and Brewmasters.

    Not to forget that it still doesn't solves the issue of no darker themed healer available to the game. Tinkers don't fill in a niche as much, as they are just another more light hearted comedic themed tank, which the game already has: Its called Monk. People who would like to play a Tinker to explore the lighter and more goofy themes of the game already have a monk as a tank option. There is no healer option for people who would like the have a more serious and dark fantasy though.

    Except we already have Blood DKs. Do you really think players aren't going to look at a Blood Necromancer and immediately feel like a Blood Necromancer is kind of lazy?
    This is your opinion and considering that you claim that the lack of a Tinker class is the reason why nobody plays gnomes and goblins despite a poll disagreeing and that you think Gnomes and Goblins are just for the single reason of not having Tinkers available to them not as popular as Elves, your opinion is a rather rare and odd one among the community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Dark healer, based on anima and blood, giving allies buffs with downsides would be really awesome.
    It certainly would and I think it would draw alot of more players than a class playable by only the least appealing and most unpopular races in the game.

  20. #120
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I disagree. It may not match what you would want the Tinker class to be exactly, but using the Druid as a base would get you a tank, healer, ranged and melee dps class that can use a variety of forms with reflavoured abilities to match the Tinker theme.
    Uh, it doesn’t match how Blizzard has shown the Tinker class to be. In order for it to work, you’d have to find Druid equivalents to established Tinker abilities. Good luck with that.

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