I can't be the only one predicting a permanent level 60 cap

[8bithamster]

I think OP kinda messed up "assuming" and "predicting".. I know they are really alike, and look the same.. but they aren't

[kamuimac]

The person I was quoting was refering to "leveling" as in "progressing your character through the levels and quests" thing, which isn't going anywhere. They are taking your "levels" but can you explain to me what meaning your level 120 currently holds? Or level 110? I agree that it might feel like we are progressing backwards if this was an RPG game or just any game in general. But this is not just an RPG. It is an MMORPG AND it is a 15 years old game which gets content updates every 2 years. You cannot go on forever. At some point the numbers get crazy in one or another way. Not seeing the benefits of these changes is just being blind to the long-term effects of a... long-term developing game. This limited way of thinking is what caused so many problems to Blizzard in the past. Including the content draughts. If they want this game to continue running for another 15 years, there has to be some systemitization to it, some formula to go with that works. You can't just expect to stack random things on top of each other and expect them to stay. You need ORDER.

I think the problem isn't what the game is doing but that it is even alive. You want the game to be as it was 15 years ago and never change yet at the same time you crave new content? You contradict yourself, mate. Think a bit on these things and come back again.

ofc you can .

all this will ensure if much more people swapping to play legacy expansion - because there they will be timelocked and anything they achieve will stay this way forever.

unlike in retail where even levels will be temporary power gains removed from you each expanion

what wow is becoming is antithesis of mmorpg - because core of mmorpg are permanent gains - whether its talents, powers etc etc.

while retail is being turned into instance based dungeon symulator with transmog farm in old expansions.

truthfully its pointless to do anything but transmog farm since everything else will be stripped from you as soon as expansion ends.

its really sad to see wow rotting this way .

but luckily there is classic and there will be TBC/WoLK to experience the core of wow as mmorpg.

they are making mistakes in their basic assumption - they assume that people cba with retail because of big numbers - no people cba with retail because nothing that you spend your time on matters anymore as each expension , each tier is complete reset of game - so why bother in first place when all you efforts are meaningless in long run .

and now even leveling will be such reset - so why have leveling at all ? just lock everyting to 60 and turn lore into storymodes

they turn wow into arpg anyway so just go all the way instead pretending that anything matters.

in legacy content its different - and its so appealing to so many people - each skill they obtain , each level they obtain , each piece of gear they obtain is permanent power gain with clear endgoal . in retail nothing matters anymore post stealing those 70 levels from players

[Shinrael]

ofc you can .

all this will ensure if much more people swapping to play legacy expansion - because there they will be timelocked and anything they achieve will stay this way forever.

unlike in retail where even levels will be temporary power gains removed from you each expanion

what wow is becoming is antithesis of mmorpg - because core of mmorpg are permanent gains - whether its talents, powers etc etc.

while retail is being turned into instance based dungeon symulator with transmog farm in old expansions.

truthfully its pointless to do anything but transmog farm since everything else will be stripped from you as soon as expansion ends.

its really sad to see wow rotting this way .

but luckily there is classic and there will be TBC/WoLK to experience the core of wow as mmorpg.

they are making mistakes in their basic assumption - they assume that people cba with retail because of big numbers - no people cba with retail because nothing that you spend your time on matters anymore as each expension , each tier is complete reset of game - so why bother in first place when all you efforts are meaningless in long run .

and now even leveling will be such reset - so why have leveling at all ? just lock everyting to 60 and turn lore into storymodes

they turn wow into arpg anyway so just go all the way instead pretending that anything matters.

in legacy content its different - and its so appealing to so many people - each skill they obtain , each level they obtain , each piece of gear they obtain is permanent power gain with clear endgoal . in retail nothing matters anymore post stealing those 70 levels from players

Alright. You are simply clueless. Noted.

[tylenol]

They could just make this the leveling reset expansion, bring things back to 60 and with the leveling changes (which can be tweaked as expansions come and go) and make it so from here on out the level cap increases but the time to get from 1 to 10 levels below the new cap decreases, next expansion the time to get from 1-60 decreases when the new cap is 70, 1-70 is faster when the new cap is 80, basically it'd always take roughly the same amount of time to go from 1-50 as it would to go from 1-60 when the new cap is 70

Then when they get to 120 again like 10 years later (if the game makes it) just reset things again

[Usernameforforums]

This is a fresh start for wow. It could go the old way, +10lvls/expac or they can make a new system like champion points from ESO and call it path of the titans.

[Dastreus]

Set cap to 60 and at that point WoW stops being an RPG. It's already barely one, at best. Might as well just remove the leveling thing completely.

[huth]

Because the degenerate power creep makes them look like a cheap chinese mobile developer otherwise.

I'm already hitting for over 300k again in some cases in BfA. In SL it would be most likely multiple millions. In v10 I would be hitting in the billions and trillions. BfA leveling iLvl starts at 230, my cloak is over 500 and even normal loot caps at around 480. With the way the power creep works in WoW it's just way too much. While it's just numbers at the end of the day and of couse you could just use scientfiic or engineering notations, but from a GUI design perspective that is pretty big no-go.

That's just you not liking it, though. I'm not seeing any actual reasons.

[unbound]

I would like to point out, again, that WoW Retail isn't doing all that great. It is entirely possible that SL will be the last expansion, and, unless Diablo IV and mobile Diablo are complete disasters, we are realistically looking at probably only one more expansion after SL.

The direction of WoW has far more dependencies on its own financials and the financials of Blizz's other properties than anything the players want or what would truly be best for WoW in general.

[Lurker1]

Rofl, like WoW will last 10 more expansions. They should stop doing squishes at this point honestly and let us have our constant power increase again.

Your funny there are older MMOrpgs still haveing there new expansions for them.

[Cosmic Janitor]

That's just you not liking it, though. I'm not seeing any actual reasons.

The reason is that it makes your software look like a child programmed it. That is the reasons, there is no mysterious secret here, this is just GUI design 101: Readability.

[Niwes]

I don't think I've seen this discussion hashed out since the leveling revamp was announced, and that surprises me.

So... I don't know where I got the impression, but it's in my head from somewhere that Ion Hazzikostas was put where he is partially to future proof WoW for the perpetuity that, really, they never expected for this game, once and for all. Whether that's his doing or not is debatable, but it's absolutely a thing that's happening.

As much as he claims not to want things to get too formulaic, you can see these efforts here and there: Flight/Pathfinder is an expected formula now, the patch cycle is relatively standardized with some wiggle room, legacy loot is a hard coded and necessary promise for those playing the transmog long game, and our expectations between main patches and "point five" patches have formed a straight line that has us anticipating timewalking right on time each expansion.

So let's look at the leveling overhaul in this vein.

You have your starting area bracket, your "legacy content" bracket, your "immediately prior expansion" designation for a smooth transition for new players being told a flowing story, and then your 10 levels for the current expansion. Pathfinder becomes something you do at the X.2 mark if you wanna fly in current content while it's current, and that achievement becomes of lesser import by the time that content goes legacy if not in the immediately following expansion. That's all very neat, tidy and as soon as we live through it once, going from 60 to 50 to climb it again, it's precedent.

...And it potentially happens again, every two years, as everything slots into its new place on the climb from 1-60. On schedule. Forever. Or as long as the game keeps going anyway.

It's so elegant it seems a sure bet at this point. How the hell does a "level 60-70" 10.0 even fit into this? It doesn't. We'll be 50 again for 10.0, Shadowlands will be the non-optional 10-50 game for new people, and BFA goes fully into the legacy pool of leveling options for veterans.

That's gotta be how this is going, right?

Right?

To be clear, I'm not complaining, but I haven't seen this accepted communally, this... nigh inevitability I'm seeing unfolding here.

what you describe here with A LOT of words is simply what we call „milk the cow“.

if someone not get it till now: since years wow is streamlined. costs and investments are reduced. content is recycled. lore and characters are recycled. gfx, designs, content is recycled. gear is autogenerated. classes are all streamlined and based on the builder/consumer pattern to achieve cost effective balancing and maintaining. most of their QoL changes, when you have a deep look at them, target more cost effective development. what you describe above is all part of that.

i say that because i work in the same business and have a good idea whats going in a company like blizz. to me and some others, its obvious since years. what you describe is just a part and a consequence of that.

[Kokolums]

Generally, an MMO is gonna have 3 main aspects: PvE, PvP and leveling. the current path of the game is to remove PvP and leveling and focus on PvE, which is an incredibly poor design choice. Leveling should be its own endgame in its own right, not 10 levels to zip thru at the start of an expac.

[Onikaroshi]

Generally, an MMO is gonna have 3 main aspects: PvE, PvP and leveling. the current path of the game is to remove PvP and leveling and focus on PvE, which is an incredibly poor design choice. Leveling should be its own endgame in its own right, not 10 levels to zip thru at the start of an expac.

IDK, a full wow-like MMO with zero pvp would be a godsend for me, I'd love to see one where the game is 100% focus'd on only the content I do.

[Sluvs]

ofc its gonna be permanent level 60 cap - and each expansion after its over will be scaled down to 1-50

untill they will remove leveling completly and turn it into story mode while endgame will be turned into lobby based instance symulator

that is their real endgoal with this change

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there would be no reason then not to implement "Veteran mode " displaying you your level as 130 while new players see you as 60 .

lets be honest here thats not why they do this change - they will be squishing you levels each time untill playerbase is pissed of and demands to remove leveling completly

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it would also put final nail to the coffin of wow being mmorpg turning it into seasonal arpg.

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they are literaly stealing 70 levels from players - and you are telling they dont take away ?

it means that all those thousands of hours put into leveling are meaningless

and this means that any leveling you do in future also is meaningless because sooner of later they will take it way

after this change wow is no longer mmorpg in my eyes - just a lobby based instance symulator aprg flled with temporary power gains

even your levels are temporary level gains atm .

complete abomination of game.

luckily we will get both TBC and WoLK in future while retail can rot .

Ok, I can see where you are coming from but I doubt they will remove levels. They talked about this in the past and said that, in the end, they were just creating lvels with a different name and a convuluted logic.

About 60 being the permanent cap, I doubt that will happen too, most likely they will do another squish if we get to 100 again. And rinse and repeat ad eternum.
They are not doing this to remove levels, they are doing this because having 130 levels would render 75% of those levels completely pointless. With the level being 60, each level matters way more and we can have proper pacing.

The thousand of hours you put into leveling were not meaningless. At all. They had value when you put the hours in, so you could do current content. Just because they dont have a permanent meaning, it does not mean that they are meaningless. That logic is pretty faulty because you can basically say: Well, next expansion pack we will have better gear, so might as well not play this one!

Think about this, what matters most, your time invested in your character or the gear and rewards that you get?

To me, the answer is pretty clear.

I think you are overreacting to an insane degree.

[Lefrog]

what wow is becoming is antithesis of mmorpg - because core of mmorpg are permanent gains - whether its talents, powers etc etc.

I thought about this some, because I don't really consider WoW an RPG myself either. Then it dawned on me that WoW is a 2 year RPG, and a 15 year mess.

If you removed legacy content and turned it into a generic book that served as a prequel you are left with a current expansion that has:

1) A storyline centered around a theme
2) Leveling which takes you through the areas and establishes a lot of the storyline
3) Different races and classes
3) Set class playstyle options (specs and talents)
4) Varied equipment options
5) Increasing power level and additional mechanics over the course of the story
6) All power gains, choices, and time spent on activities are permanent and meaningful

From this, I think their general design philosophy is "Make the current expansion a fun RPG experience, don't worry too much about trying to make the entirety of WoW into a cohesive RPG game"

OT: If this is their general design philosophy, it makes sense to shove as much of the legacy content into an easily manageable format so that they can focus on their current 2 year game.

I can totally see them doing the following every 2 years to cut development costs:

-Move current xpac leveling experience to a 10-50 leveling format
-Disable old temp powers past 50
-Make all raid bosses easy for transmog farming
-Can solo queue for LFR
-Make flying available by default
-Your stats and level are always scale down to a level 50

and then:

-Deploy new xpac in 50-60 range (Mob and quest exp can now just be taken from previous xpac number as well as damage tunning)
-Baseline spells and talents shouldn't change too much because those are obtained in the 0-50 experience (less class redesign for developers and 0-50 leveling will always feel meaningful)
-New temp powers to make gameplay vary and prevent classes from being stale
-Your powerlevel over the course of the 2 years can now mimic previous xpac (ilvl, stats, HP, boss damage, etc etc will be easier to develop)
-New story, theme, races, classes, and gear.

[DeltrusDisc]

Well, I have a feeling they might just do something like that. But I have to imagine that at some point, the scaling and squishing down will get a little difficult to make work?

Plus it would mean that old content will technically never be outleveled anymore. You would be able to get at most 10 levels above BfA content, 0 over Shadowlands, 0 over any future expansion.

I have a feeling he means they might push Shadowlands content down to 50.

And I am sure they've kept the whole out-leveled/farming old content thing in mind. 10 levels there is NOT going to be like the 10 level difference between 110 and 120... at least I hope/would think.

[vitor210]

I don't think I've seen this discussion hashed out since the leveling revamp was announced, and that surprises me.

So... I don't know where I got the impression, but it's in my head from somewhere that Ion Hazzikostas was put where he is partially to future proof WoW for the perpetuity that, really, they never expected for this game, once and for all. Whether that's his doing or not is debatable, but it's absolutely a thing that's happening.

As much as he claims not to want things to get too formulaic, you can see these efforts here and there: Flight/Pathfinder is an expected formula now, the patch cycle is relatively standardized with some wiggle room, legacy loot is a hard coded and necessary promise for those playing the transmog long game, and our expectations between main patches and "point five" patches have formed a straight line that has us anticipating timewalking right on time each expansion.

So let's look at the leveling overhaul in this vein.

You have your starting area bracket, your "legacy content" bracket, your "immediately prior expansion" designation for a smooth transition for new players being told a flowing story, and then your 10 levels for the current expansion. Pathfinder becomes something you do at the X.2 mark if you wanna fly in current content while it's current, and that achievement becomes of lesser import by the time that content goes legacy if not in the immediately following expansion. That's all very neat, tidy and as soon as we live through it once, going from 60 to 50 to climb it again, it's precedent.

...And it potentially happens again, every two years, as everything slots into its new place on the climb from 1-60. On schedule. Forever. Or as long as the game keeps going anyway.

It's so elegant it seems a sure bet at this point. How the hell does a "level 60-70" 10.0 even fit into this? It doesn't. We'll be 50 again for 10.0, Shadowlands will be the non-optional 10-50 game for new people, and BFA goes fully into the legacy pool of leveling options for veterans.

That's gotta be how this is going, right?

Right?

To be clear, I'm not complaining, but I haven't seen this accepted communally, this... nigh inevitability I'm seeing unfolding here.

You're not the only one. I've been saying this since last year's Blizzcon. Not sure if this is a Mandella Effect but I am convinced I read somewhere that the devs said we'll be back to 50 at the start of the next expansion after Shadowlands and we'll level up to 60 again.

[kamuimac]

I have a feeling he means they might push Shadowlands content down to 50.

And I am sure they've kept the whole out-leveled/farming old content thing in mind. 10 levels there is NOT going to be like the 10 level difference between 110 and 120... at least I hope/would think.

well from looks of things in alpha 50-60 will take you 3-4 hours total .

which means that they really dont want people leveling a all.

i bet every sceptic here right now that along with expansion they will ship 1-60 boost for 30 euro instead 60.

what is their endgoal is turning wow into seasonal lobby based instance symulator.

mark my words.

[Vortsex]

Do you think we'll go back to level 50 again for the next xpac? Or are we simply just not gaining levels anymore? Either way sounds awful. We'll be going to 70 xpac after shadowlands.

[Cyanu]

just getting to 70 makes much more sense and is alot more natural