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  1. #21
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Medicine is part of technology.
    Medicine is irrelevant to this discussion as us Europeans did not have access to medicine that protected us from our germs, it was herd immunity that was in play there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Depends on what virulent diseases the Americans brought with them to Europe.
    I would say that @Nevcairiel raises a good point on this, much like the COVID19 virus a lot of the viruses we had was due to our way of living, our way of living with livestock. I can't say that i know enough how the native american agriculture looks like but i don't think they were breeding animals at the same level we were so they wouldn't have those germs. Than again if they were more technologically advanced they might have had some.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Just... nope. Australian aborigines regressed technologically, to give just one example, and without a sufficiently high average IQ any ideas the odd brilliant mind dreams up will be wasted, because there won't be a society capable of putting it into practice. The idea of inevitable, often rapid, technological & societal progress is an incredibly Euro-centric idea - heck, even the idea of universal laws of physics is pretty unusual. I don't know if the Chinese had such ideas (I don't know enough about Buddhism and the like, but the idea of a celestial bureaucracy at least points to the idea of a universe run on laws), but for most of humanity, the world was run according to the whims of gods and demons, spirits and whatnot (even in Islam, if Allah says 2+2=5, then by God, 2+2=5), so hammering out universal laws of physics was something of a fool's errand. And finally, as the Greeks & Romans showed, merely inventing something (like steam power) isn't enough - you have to be able to apply it usefully. Not a high priority in a time where labour-saving devices existed in the form of slaves .


    Yeah. Jared Diamond makes a good point regarding things like the number of domesticated animals there were on the Eurasian (plus North African) landmass, ease of diseases spreading etc (eg west-east is easier in terms of climate than north-south), but takes it too far.


    What's your starting date / scenario? Because when humans arrived in the Americas we were very efficient in exterminating almost all of the big wildlife, including IIRC the horses that were native to the place. So the later the native humans decide to race down the tech tree, the fewer options there will even be for domesticating animals.
    looks like we found the racist comment not even past the first page.

    Also it is fucking hilarious you bring up islam and math of all the fucking religions being that THEY HAD A LITERAL GOLDEN AGE FOR MATHEMATICS AND MUCH OF OUR MATHEMATIC PRINCIPALS comes from the Middle East.

    Hell even concepts originally attributed to Europeans in recent years have been found to have first come from the Middle East some several hundred years prior.

    My fucking god, you really do let racism colour your view don't you?

    "Everyone dumb but us white people, we are the only ones capable of advancements"

    Never mind Tecnochitilan was one of the most urban cities, larger than most cities on the planet at the time, and was reknowed for being extraodirinaly clean stunning the Spanish when they arrived. That totally wasn't a thing that required technology that marvelled the Spanish.

    Also are you aware that the first charter for human civil rights came from persians?

    honestly... the ignorance it requires to look to islam in the past and say "lol if the Quran said 2 + 2 is 5 then it is to those low iq religious savages!" I guess this explains why Europe wanted to trade with them, used them and their navigation to discover places, used their discoveries relating to math and science, because they were just religious fools?

    Also you are you aware of the entire issue of settlers setting children and women alight claiming god wills it??

  3. #23
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    One other factor sometimes overlooked too is that the natives weren't all friends with each others. E.g during the spanish conquest of central America the Aztecs were hated by other natives, and they took advantage of that rift alongside the effects of diseases spreading. There were scarcely more than a few thousand Spaniards in central America at the time.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    What's your starting date / scenario? Because when humans arrived in the Americas we were very efficient in exterminating almost all of the big wildlife, including IIRC the horses that were native to the place. So the later the native humans decide to race down the tech tree, the fewer options there will even be for domesticating animals.
    The entire premise would be that the european invasion of the americas did not happen, and they instead eventually did the opposite.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    One other factor sometimes overlooked too is that the natives weren't all friends with each others. E.g during the spanish conquest of central America the Aztecs were hated by other natives, and they took advantage of that rift alongside the effects of diseases spreading. There were scarcely more than a few thousand Spaniards in central America at the time.
    That, and disease, plus several European countries involved. French and English with two sets of natives on their sides pitted against each other.

    It is how we got the L'affaire Jumonville

    - - - Updated - - -

    Truthfully why would Americas colonise Europe?

    First you have to ask why did Western Europe colonise the Americas?

    Simple.. western Europe had at the time no items to trade, no gold to buy items they wanted. They were very much isolated from the Middle East and Asia, while southern and the Mediterranean were flourishing .

    Now around 1200s Mansa Munsa was known to Europe and it was known there was gold, and this is what prompted the Portuguese to begin traveling along the coast of Africa.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    It would be centuries of horror.
    Cuz...What happened to the native Americans wasn't centuries of horror? What is your point?

    Also, as the literal first reply pointed out...The Native Americans would have all died to the European diseases anyway.

  7. #27
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    @Themius i purposely ignored him for that reason, opinions born from racism and ignorance, further build upon his comments about religion such as Islam and Mathematics what show a gross lack of historical knowledge that removes him from the debate completely.

    I mean a large part of this is also to blame by how poorly our history classes are structured with very little knowledge about the native americans and i believe this goes for both Europe and NA.

    He in my book is the english version of Orlong, if you remember him.

    All in all i am not surprised by this as people who are racist tend to have an overly romantic view about what colonialism was, they obviously can't admit to it being overall bad as that would shatter an important world view they have.
    Last edited by Acidbaron; 2020-05-04 at 07:39 PM.

  8. #28
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    I'd geuss they would have fared worse than the Mongols?

    Probably more success if they attempted invasions of Korea or China.

    Now retaking Urtusk or something would interesting. Could they have stopped Ivan the Terrible's conquest and subjugation of Siberian peoples?
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  9. #29
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Firstly we should avoid talking about race-based average IQ because it's based on inductively generalizing scores for the purpose of prediction which is an inherently explanation-less process. It doesn't tell us anything at all.
    It's actually a pretty good predictor of a lot of things. The trouble is some idiot always wants to make it the end-all-and-be-all of the discussion, as if exceptions or attributes other than IQ aren't important. IQ doesn't correlate with morality, and it also has nothing to say about personal traits like being a hard worker vs lazy, to give just one example. All the IQ points in the world are worthless if you won't get off your lazy arse, and they're positively harmful to humanity if you're a high-IQ Hannibal Lecter type.

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    What that means is that people are capable of creating any possible behaviors and ideas in any environment.
    It's more of a halfway house I think. If your tribe has never seen the sea or anything like it, then you're unlikely to ever conceive of sea-related ideas. At the same time, the fact that you've never seen or heard of the sea doesn't mean you can't come up with plenty of deep philosophical stuff*.

    *Although historically, sea being a great means of travel meant that living near the coast, or failing that a good river network, was likely positively correlated with novel ideas, just because trade provided a means for ideas to be mixed & matched together.

    = = =

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Also it is fucking hilarious you bring up islam and math of all the fucking religions being that THEY HAD A LITERAL GOLDEN AGE FOR MATHEMATICS AND MUCH OF OUR MATHEMATIC PRINCIPALS comes from the Middle East.
    See that thing way over your head? That was the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    "Everyone dumb but us white people, we are the only ones capable of advancements"
    Yeah, that's why gunpowder was invented in Fra- oh no, wait a minute. Good Lord you're an idiot isn't you. "Nuance? Wassat?"

    Frankly if you want my short & simple, single-issue (and therefore so incomplete as to be basically wrong) answer as to "why Europe" it'd be religion, not race.
    [Infraction]
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Never mind Tecnochitilan was one of the most urban cities, larger than most cities on the planet at the time
    Okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    and was reknowed for being extraodirinaly clean stunning the Spanish when they arrived. That totally wasn't a thing that required technology that marvelled the Spanish.
    Actually, clean streets is hardly a high-tech thing. Slave labour - and possibly (although I don't know) a lack of domesticated animals - likely helped out a bunch here. Plus simple cultural differences - the Japanese generally have cleaner cities today than Europeans & Americans do, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Also are you aware that the first charter for human civil rights came from persians?
    No, that's interesting though. Again though, you lack the ability to read any nuance into something. Did I say that universals were exclusively down to whites*? No.

    *If you want to get technical, Persians are descended from Aryans as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I guess this explains why Europe wanted to trade with them
    The Islamic world stood right between the Europeans and all the stuff they wanted from India & the Far East, of course they wanted to trade with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    used them and their navigation to discover places, used their discoveries relating to math and science, because they were just religious fools?
    It might be interesting to read up on how much of the Islamic "golden age" was down to Islam vs the people conquered by Islam. Just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Also you are you aware of the entire issue of settlers setting children and women alight claiming god wills it??
    Not sure what your point is, sorry.

    = = =

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    The entire premise would be that the european invasion of the americas did not happen, and they instead eventually did the opposite.
    Right, but my point is that dates matter. If the Aztecs (or whoever) start in -15000 BC or w/e, they could potentially have saved the native horse population of the Americas to have cavalry still whenever it is they do invade. If they invade just after the black death has wiped out half of Europe's population, they'll probably have an easier time of it than if they invade circa 1500 AD.

    = = =

    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    One other factor sometimes overlooked too is that the natives weren't all friends with each others.
    Oh god no. The Aztec empire used human sacrifice and such in no small part to keep their subjects in line, and the Apache, Comanche et al were every bit as savage towards one another as Europeans were to them. Exceptions like the Iroquois Confederacy were just that - exceptions.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-05-04 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Minor Flaming
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  10. #30
    If one didn't do it someone else would.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Oh god no. The Aztec empire used human sacrifice and such in no small part to keep their subjects in line, and the Apache, Comanche et al were every bit as savage towards one another as Europeans were to them. Exceptions like the Iroquois Confederacy were just that - exceptions.
    Savagery was the way of much of the world...the veneer of "civilization" was just that.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's actually a pretty good predictor of a lot of things. The trouble is some idiot always wants to make it the end-all-and-be-all of the discussion, as if exceptions or attributes other than IQ aren't important. IQ doesn't correlate with morality, and it also has nothing to say about personal traits like being a hard worker vs lazy, to give just one example. All the IQ points in the world are worthless if you won't get off your lazy arse, and they're positively harmful to humanity if you're a high-IQ Hannibal Lecter type.


    It's more of a halfway house I think. If your tribe has never seen the sea or anything like it, then you're unlikely to ever conceive of sea-related ideas. At the same time, the fact that you've never seen or heard of the sea doesn't mean you can't come up with plenty of deep philosophical stuff*.

    *Although historically, sea being a great means of travel meant that living near the coast, or failing that a good river network, was likely positively correlated with novel ideas, just because trade provided a means for ideas to be mixed & matched together.

    = = =


    See that thing way over your head? That was the point.


    Yeah, that's why gunpowder was invented in Fra- oh no, wait a minute. Good Lord you're an idiot aren't you. "Nuance? Wassat?"

    Frankly if you want my short & simple, single-issue (and therefore so incomplete as to be basically wrong) answer as to "why Europe" it'd be religion, not race.


    Okay?


    Actually, clean streets is hardly a high-tech thing. Slave labour - and possibly (although I don't know) a lack of domesticated animals - likely helped out a bunch here. Plus simple cultural differences - the Japanese generally have cleaner cities today than Europeans & Americans do, for example.


    No, that's interesting though. Again though, you lack the ability to read any nuance into something. Did I say that universals were exclusively down to whites*? No.

    *If you want to get technical, Persians are descended from Aryans as well.


    The Islamic world stood right between the Europeans and all the stuff they wanted from India & the Far East, of course they wanted to trade with them.


    It might be interesting to read up on how much of the Islamic "golden age" was down to Islam vs the people conquered by Islam. Just saying.


    Not sure what your point is, sorry.

    = = =


    Right, but my point is that dates matter. If the Aztecs (or whoever) start in -15000 BC or w/e, they could potentially have saved the native horse population of the Americas to have cavalry still whenever it is they do invade. If they invade just after the black death has wiped out half of Europe's population, they'll probably have an easier time of it than if they invade circa 1500 AD.

    = = =


    Oh god no. The Aztec empire used human sacrifice and such in no small part to keep their subjects in line, and the Apache, Comanche et al were every bit as savage towards one another as Europeans were to them. Exceptions like the Iroquois Confederacy were just that - exceptions.

    IQ doesn't mean much at all, and methods to attain IQ numbers often have fault. Now people like you who spout these racist IQ claims often only attribute good iq to white people and asian people, so it is not out of bounds, on gunpowder.

    the clean streets weren't a sign of technology the Spanish were speaking of..

    Considering your posting history nuance is very very clear, I mean perhaps you may want to stop speaking racist bs if you want to be taken differently, is this hard for you?

  13. #33
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    IQ doesn't mean much at all and methods to attain IQ numbers often have fault.[/quote]
    Random MMO-C posters know best again !

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Now people like you who spout these racist IQ claims
    So facts can be racist? Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    often only attribute good iq to white people and asian people
    Don't forget the Jews, they're up there with the East Asians. Oh, and don't forget a little nuance - you know, like the importance of the word "average" in discussing such stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    the clean streets weren't a sign of technology the Spanish were speaking of..
    You'll have to go into more detail then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    if you want to be taken differently, is this hard for you?
    Do you really think I care that much what you think?
    Still not tired of winning.

  14. #34
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's actually a pretty good predictor of a lot of things.
    But how does it tell you anything at all? How do you gain any knowledge from prediction based on race or IQ? Unless IQ averaging gives you explanations then it is inherently worthless.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-05-04 at 09:17 PM.

  15. #35
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    I strongly advise dropping discussion relating IQ to race or nationality.
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  16. #36
    Stop failing so hard bro.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations

    The first nation ancestors where actually brave enough to manage to cross the land bridge that link what is now russia and alaska.

    For you to be right the birth of the human race would have to be in the Americas and it would have been the same since the Incas has about the same mythologies as Egyptians... and jealousy would have develop the feudal system and <yadi yada>.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Yes, the conquistadors and British colonialists perpetrated barbarous acts and stole the land from the natives. But if the Aztecs or the Mayans had developed gunpowder and more advanced seafaring capabilities first, would a colonization of Europe have been any less brutal? Imagine Versailles being razed and replaced with a sacrificial temple of Tezcatlipoca. It would be centuries of horror.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Yes, the conquistadors and British colonialists perpetrated barbarous acts and stole the land from the natives. But if the Aztecs or the Mayans had developed gunpowder and more advanced seafaring capabilities first, would a colonization of Europe have been any less brutal? Imagine Versailles being razed and replaced with a sacrificial temple of Tezcatlipoca. It would be centuries of horror.
    They would have been probably broken, the moment, they tried to challenge the larger naval powers. Even with gunpowder they are thousands of miles from home... and then after maybe taking ireland... facing the larger naval powers... on their homewater with much larger ships. Realisticly their ships would be of the size of a carack, but in europe they would face ships like the Revenge, or even worse once they come to the Baltic Adler von Lübeck... Not to mention the rest of the associated fleets.

    It appears to be very unlikely, that Aztecs would get a meaningful advantage of having gunpowder first. Europe got it in the 13th century... which is around 300 years before they colonize anything. Unless they sonehow get it significant earlier. Which is however unlikely. Also another disadvantage is the lack of iron and bronze smelting facilities, which are required to create guns.

    If we Talk about razing Versailles, that means 17th at earliest. Which means, Europe would have the fleets of the earlier mentioned vessels... und even much newer ships. And at this point, I honestly would not try crossing the atlantic, and then have to fight first rate ships of the line.
    Last edited by josykay; 2020-05-04 at 10:05 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    IQ doesn't mean much at all and methods to attain IQ numbers often have fault.
    Random MMO-C posters know best again !


    So facts can be racist? Oh well.


    Don't forget the Jews, they're up there with the East Asians. Oh, and don't forget a little nuance - you know, like the importance of the word "average" in discussing such stuff?


    You'll have to go into more detail then.


    Do you really think I care that much what you think?
    I’ve talked on and posted studies on this several times already. One debunking the idea that race mattered as iqs of different races were virtually the same when they were one group with similar backgrounds. Iq is often looking at narrow scopes which turns it into a cultural thing.

    I actually posted iq and majors in another topic that wasn’t about iq but it found people who scored highly may do a shit job in other areas pertaining to critical thinking or written words.

    There is the theory of multiple intelligence, we acknowledge a musical genius, but do you think they’d also make an amazing physicist?

    Go read what the Spanish said themselves. Google exists.
    Last edited by Themius; 2020-05-04 at 10:39 PM.

  19. #39
    Would never happen. They land with soldiers. And then get decimated by a mounted charge. They didn't have horses, a huge disadvantage. This is one of the reasons that Africans could never invade and dominate Eurasia. It is hard to understate the importance of horses to much of human history.

    As impressive as some of the American civilizations were, they would always be unlikely to compete with Eurasian, especially European civilization. Geography was very advantageous to Eurasians. The environment, animals and fauna were far easier to tame than large parts of America. Advanced civilization really depends on the food problem being solved, it was always going to be easier for Eurasians, especially Europeans.

    Then you add in that Europe had several major powers on each others doorsteps. For large parts of history it wasn't dominated by one power, and the powers weren't separated by massive land barriers like in Asia, enabling a sharing of technology and culture on a scale that other regions couldn't manage, as well as countless bloody wars.

    If they managed to develop technology to overcome this, and invade Europe, there is no reason to think they would be any less brutal. They are human. Empire, slavery, barbarism, these are not European traits, they are human ones. The noble savage myth is just that, a myth. American tribes committed atrocities on each other, just like Europeans, Asians and Africans have done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


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  20. #40
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Random MMO-C posters know best again
    Well, he isn’t the only one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intell...cism_and_views
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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