[Balance] Shadowlands Class Updates

[VinceVega]

Frankly, i'm not sure i'd actually feel bad about that. Though i wouldn't mind baseline Moon Moon back, either.

The Druid Rare 2 Anima Power looks interesting. Especially if you can 20 stack it and just drops moons on every tick.

Yeah MoonMoon cut through the monotony a bit. I really liked it on Aluriel in nighthold for example.

[Difuid]

Please, could anybody explain to me why they are so excited about the "sub-optimal skill warm up phase"? Other than "it is how it was used be in WotLK" or rose tinted glass reminisce?

To me Eclipse looks counter intuitive and hinders your ability to dynamically react in any situation. So what good is the rhythm that it is so offbeat from the world's pulse?

[lappee]

Please, could anybody explain to me why they are so excited about the "sub-optimal skill warm up phase"? Other than "it is how it was used be in WotLK" or rose tinted glass reminisce?

To me Eclipse looks counter intuitive and hinders your ability to dynamically react in any situation. So what good is the rhythm that it is so offbeat from the world's pulse?

Eclipse offers more gameplay decisions that actually matter.

You can't "dynamically" react in current content either, you either predict or you don't. It just doesn't matter for shit if you do or you don't (unless its about using CA, which you can use at a "bad" time and still get a proc when needed). The class itself isn't "offbeat from the world's pulse" and it won't be in Shadowlands either, only thing that can (and probably will) be off rhythm is you.
You either adapt to the situation at hand, or you don't - only this time it actually matters.

[Rhaze48]

So if I understand right a single target rotation is basically gonna be [SF-SF-SF-Wrath/SS-Wrath/SS-Wrath/SS] rinse and repeat?

[Difuid]

Eclipse offers more gameplay decisions that actually matter.

You can't "dynamically" react in current content either, you either predict or you don't. It just doesn't matter for shit if you do or you don't (unless its about using CA, which you can use at a "bad" time and still get a proc when needed). The class itself isn't "offbeat from the world's pulse" and it won't be in Shadowlands either, only thing that can (and probably will) be off rhythm is you.
You either adapt to the situation at hand, or you don't - only this time it actually matters.

You did more of rant of the current system with a dash of personal attack oven answering my question of "Why is Ecplise considered good?", but it was my mistake to expect a proper answer.

[lappee]

You did more of rant of the current system with a dash of personal attack oven answering my question of "Why is Ecplise considered good?", but it was my mistake to expect a proper answer.

I'm sorry if comparing it to current system makes it too hard to actually read the points and feels like an personal attack.

But hey, here is a very, very simplified and short list:
1) Button presses matter
2) Prediction matters

[Argenon]

At this point, I don't like what eclipse is shaping up to be. To me it seems like a step in the wrong direction. From what I gather through the comments here, and the new tooltip, this rotation seems more static and predictable, which I don't want, because this seems to be right on point:

So if I understand right a single target rotation is basically gonna be [SF-SF-SF-Wrath/SS-Wrath/SS-Wrath/SS] rinse and repeat?

I would prefer the Legion rotation with Moons again over this proposed iteration of eclipse.

[VinceVega]

At this point, I don't like what eclipse is shaping up to be. To me it seems like a step in the wrong direction. From what I gather through the comments here, and the new tooltip, this rotation seems more static and predictable, which I don't want, because this seems to be right on point:


I would prefer the Legion rotation with Moons again over this proposed iteration of eclipse.

At its core Moonkin always was quite static except in BFA. Which just put everything we have behind Rng... (barf)

I agree, that i liked the Moon once i an while an the planning that came with it but we do get the covenant ability. So we don't really know how this and the new soulbinds will affect us. I like where they are going but i wait with the final judgment for max level content on alpha.

Every bit less of RNG is a good change. For me and for world lag

[laserchick87]

I'm sorry if comparing it to current system makes it too hard to actually read the points and feels like an personal attack.

But hey, here is a very, very simplified and short list:
1) Button presses matter
2) Prediction matters

I don't agree. I think the system is an illusion of choice. So the only time you have to take a big decision is which eclipse you want to start with. When you start with one, you're forced into the next one (unless you pop CA or you sit out of combat long enough for the cycle to reset, which is impossible at raid bosses and will drag your team down in m+).

And you leave a very important equation of out it all. You're dependent what other people do, like their dps or strategies. So the timing could be completely off. Lets say you're raiding, at the dps was either too slow or too fast, and you're approaching a boss phase where you need the solar eclipse. But because of the filler charges and that you're dependent on what others do, you could be forced into the wrong eclipse. With the changes, you can't wait for an ICD to reset to use that eclipse again. It's an alternation cycle, so you must use lunar eclipse to be able to use solar eclipse again. In my opinion, that's not good design.

They could have changed empowerments instead and do something fun with it (or do eclipse differently). For example, casting lunar strike will make it stronger each time, doing x % more damage each time. Or using it x times will empower your next starfall by x %. The same goes for solar wrath, it could empower your next starsurge. And maybe a remake of streaking stars, casting x different spells will empower your next starfall or starsurge, but not as much if you go cast three of the same filler.
They could have done something fun with the moon spell in the current eclipse system. Make it baseline. In lunar eclipse you get access to the moon version doing single target damage. In the solar version, you get access to a solar version making splash damage (remove splash from wrath). Instead of generating ap, it will cost x ap and have a cd.

[huth]

At its core Moonkin always was quite static except in BFA. Which just put everything we have behind Rng... (barf)

I agree, that i liked the Moon once i an while an the planning that came with it but we do get the covenant ability. So we don't really know how this and the new soulbinds will affect us. I like where they are going but i wait with the final judgment for max level content on alpha.

Every bit less of RNG is a good change. For me and for world lag

No. We had a lot more RNG in some of the previous iterations. WotLK Eclipse had no guaranteed procs at all. In poor gear you could go an entire fight without a single proc, and even with 100% crit Wrath wasn't guaranteed to proc it.

Legion was nearly completely static without Legendaries(with the rest being mostly encounter randomness), which made it excessively boring. No RNG isn't that great either.

[lappee]

I don't agree. I think the system is an illusion of choice. So the only time you have to take a big decision is which eclipse you want to start with. When you start with one, you're forced into the next one (unless you pop CA or you sit out of combat long enough for the cycle to reset, which is impossible at raid bosses and will drag your team down in m+).

Except you can delay an eclipse and have your preferred one pop at the very moment you want - given that you can predict properly. That alone offers more gameplay decision that current moonkin does all together.

Then theres the whole "when to Starsurge/Starfall", "Starsurge vs Starfall" and "when to dot" that currently have no decisions at all. Sure those can and will be mathed out, but it leaves a "bad" and "good" option - something we just don't have right now.

And you leave a very important equation of out it all. You're dependent what other people do, like their dps or strategies. So the timing could be completely off. Lets say you're raiding, at the dps was either too slow or too fast, and you're approaching a boss phase where you need the solar eclipse. But because of the filler charges and that you're dependent on what others do, you could be forced into the wrong eclipse. With the changes, you can't wait for an ICD to reset to use that eclipse again. It's an alternation cycle, so you must use lunar eclipse to be able to use solar eclipse again. In my opinion, that's not good design.

If you can't predict 10 seconds ahead (aka not going into Solar immediately after Lunar if you need Solar very soon), then you deserve to do less damage when it matters. If the encounter is tight and requires you (and everyone else) to pull out max dps all the time, then that is - again - a choice that you make, sacrifice phase X start dps in order to reach the phase in the first place.

Given that there is no RNG anymore in Eclipse procs, you can just cast 2 Starfires after you get out of Lunar and just spam Wrath for X- seconds so you can proc Solar immediately when you need it. Nothing is stopping you from delaying an Eclipse (well, other than "MUST do MAX dps ALL the TIME1!!.

[huth]

Nothing is stopping you from delaying an Eclipse (well, other than "MUST do MAX dps ALL the TIME1!!.

To which i only say "Dead DPS do no damage".

And ultimately, the goal of every encounter is to defeat it, not to do the most damage possible. I still remember those fights were you actually had to delay a phase so timers align favourably.

[laserchick87]

Except you can delay an eclipse and have your preferred one pop at the very moment you want - given that you can predict properly. That alone offers more gameplay decision that current moonkin does all together.

If you can't predict 10 seconds ahead (aka not going into Solar immediately after Lunar if you need Solar very soon), then you deserve to do less damage when it matters. If the encounter is tight and requires you (and everyone else) to pull out max dps all the time, then that is - again - a choice that you make, sacrifice phase X start dps in order to reach the phase in the first place.

Sometimes it could be harder to predict, cause things will happen when you play with others that you can't predict. Ofc it will not be rocket science hard, no spec is. But I still think the design is bad and boring. I know that you can delay the incoming eclipse with spamming the filler with 0 charges, but that doesn't remove the fact that the design still controls your next eclipse. The only thing you control is which eclipse you want to start with. You can also control when to activate the next eclipse by spamming a filler with 0 charges. But yeah, bad design and boring.

Eclipse will be the core of the spec. So spamming a filler to delay stuff isn't fun. And in m+ it can be hard to predict stuff, because people use different strategies (different paths for example). And if the tuning makes sense, you want lunar eclipse on trash packs/bigger pulls. But you still have to go through solar eclipse to get the next lunar eclipse. Sure, starfall will do some damage on trash packs, but again, it just doesn't feel good being forced into a single target eclipse on trash packs when you know that the design should be that lunar eclipse should be the eclipse you want on bigger pulls. I just like the freedom of choice, and this system controls the rotation too much for my liking. I would rather have an internal cooldown on the eclipse.

And I would welcome some rng to spec. Maybe not tied to when the eclipse should start, but just something. A spec without rng will become stale.

This version is the eclipse bar 2.0, with alternating cycles. The difference is that the bar is invisible and that starsurge extends the eclipse. And if I remember correctly, the eclipse bar was one of the most unpopular versions of mookin so far.

[lappee]

snip

So literally 90% of your "problems" with the spec can be solved by simple communication.
If by "design controlling" you mean how the spec "should work" then yes, Eclipse "controls" what you should do (even though you CAN play by never going to lunar Eclipse, it is just going to be really bad dps - basically EVERY version of eclipse had it. It is the core of balancing Lunar and Solar), the same way as "design controls" fury warriors to use bloodthirst...

Spamming filler to delay damage is literally what every spec does (if they have a filler, that is as some might just leave autoattack on to pool stuff like energy).

Base spec doesn't need RNG, sure there could be more talents that add it (like shooting stars) and we're probably going to see legendaries that add a bit of it as well.

This version is literally improved WotlK eclipse, and as a player who has actually played Balance through every iteration I say that in my opinion WotlK is the best iteration of eclipse so far.

[laserchick87]

So literally 90% of your "problems" with the spec can be solved by simple communication.
If by "design controlling" you mean how the spec "should work" then yes, Eclipse "controls" what you should do (even though you CAN play by never going to lunar Eclipse, it is just going to be really bad dps - basically EVERY version of eclipse had it. It is the core of balancing Lunar and Solar), the same way as "design controls" fury warriors to use bloodthirst...

Spamming filler to delay damage is literally what every spec does (if they have a filler, that is as some might just leave autoattack on to pool stuff like energy).

Base spec doesn't need RNG, sure there could be more talents that add it (like shooting stars) and we're probably going to see legendaries that add a bit of it as well.

This version is literally improved WotlK eclipse, and as a player who has actually played Balance through every iteration I say that in my opinion WotlK is the best iteration of eclipse so far.

I just don't like the design, that's it. I like more freedom. I never really liked the eclipse system. And yeah, other specs can delay dps, but it's kinda different. A rogue can build 5 combo points pretty fast. A feral druid can do the same and pool energy pretty fast. It doesn't take 10-15 sec + the build up for the next eclipse. They're not forced into a system like eclipse. The fun factor is important for me. I would say the same even if it turns out that balance will be OP as hell. I think we have to agree to disagree. I hope you enjoy it (no sarcasm), and I'm happy for you if you do enjoy it.

[lappee]

I just don't like the design, that's it. I like more freedom. I never really liked the eclipse system. And yeah, other specs can delay dps, but it's kinda different. A rogue can build 5 combo points pretty fast. A feral druid can do the same and pool energy pretty fast. It doesn't take 10-15 sec + the build up for the next eclipse. They're not forced into a system like eclipse. The fun factor is important for me. I would say the same even if it turns out that balance will be OP as hell. I think we have to agree to disagree. I hope you enjoy it (no sarcasm), and I'm happy for you if you do enjoy it.

And you not personally liking it is just fine. "Freedom" at the cost of "nothing matters, so you can press whatever in whatever order" is generally a very, very bad development decision. You literally can play current moonkin by keeping dots up (refreshing doesn't matter as long as you're in pandemic range) and pressing 123123123123123 (1 Wrath, 2 Starfire, 3Starsurge). If theres not enough AsP to cast surge you'll just press Wrath again without ever changing the button press order. You can do it vice versa or you can just mix and match - because it doesn't matter.

Other specs can delay dps by building combopoints, just like we can delay dps by building AsP. We just have the option to do it properly with Eclipse or not. For how long we need to have "pooled dps" depends as well. Combopoint classes can have only that one finisher build up (and energy, which is +2 seconds) while we can do anywhere between a full eclipse to just 3 Starsurges. The need dictates the how. In most cases you really, really don't have to pool for more than a few seconds (aka basic AsP pooling) because those Starsurges will extend whatever eclipse you're in. That "10-15 sec +" claim is really only when you actually need to do full, and I mean full dps at the start of an phase (which basically means that the whole raid is already waiting for cooldowns and such for it anyway). Anything else can be managed within a few seconds of smart decision - atleast with how the spec currently works on Alpha.

And yes, I will enjoy the spec more than current one (given that they don't completely change current Alpha moonkin) as I enjoy gameplay that requires decision making that actually matters.

[laserchick87]

And you not personally liking it is just fine. "Freedom" at the cost of "nothing matters, so you can press whatever in whatever order" is generally a very, very bad development decision. You literally can play current moonkin by keeping dots up (refreshing doesn't matter as long as you're in pandemic range) and pressing 123123123123123 (1 Wrath, 2 Starfire, 3Starsurge). If theres not enough AsP to cast surge you'll just press Wrath again without ever changing the button press order. You can do it vice versa or you can just mix and match - because it doesn't matter.

Other specs can delay dps by building combopoints, just like we can delay dps by building AsP. We just have the option to do it properly with Eclipse or not. For how long we need to have "pooled dps" depends as well. Combopoint classes can have only that one finisher build up (and energy, which is +2 seconds) while we can do anywhere between a full eclipse to just 3 Starsurges. The need dictates the how. In most cases you really, really don't have to pool for more than a few seconds (aka basic AsP pooling) because those Starsurges will extend whatever eclipse you're in. That "10-15 sec +" claim is really only when you actually need to do full, and I mean full dps at the start of an phase (which basically means that the whole raid is already waiting for cooldowns and such for it anyway). Anything else can be managed within a few seconds of smart decision - atleast with how the spec currently works on Alpha.

And yes, I will enjoy the spec more than current one (given that they don't completely change current Alpha moonkin) as I enjoy gameplay that requires decision making that actually matters.

Maybe it will be better once I try it myself. My opinion is based on watching streams and Youtube videos. And I have some bad memories from earlier eclipse systems.

Yeah I know pooling will be important. Save 60-90 ap before an eclipse may feel great, extending it right away (unless you cast a starfall). My worries is that one eclipse may be much better than the other. There should obviously be a difference, otherwise it's no point. But if it turns out that lunar eclipse is far superior than solar it could be problematic, especially in m+. Because then it will feel bad entering solar eclipse on trash. Lets hope starfall damage makes up for it. Especially when starfall doesn't extend the eclipse.

And you could still have more freedom without sacrificing all the decision making. This system have some decision making, that's true. But its also limiting your choices to a certain degree. I hope I will enjoy it as much as you do. Decision making is a nice thing if they tune it properly. But freedom is also nice. I like a balance between control and freedom.

[GringoD]

If you can't predict 10 seconds ahead (aka not going into Solar immediately after Lunar if you need Solar very soon), then you deserve to do less damage when it matters. If the encounter is tight and requires you (and everyone else) to pull out max dps all the time, then that is - again - a choice that you make, sacrifice phase X start dps in order to reach the phase in the first place.

Given that there is no RNG anymore in Eclipse procs, you can just cast 2 Starfires after you get out of Lunar and just spam Wrath for X- seconds so you can proc Solar immediately when you need it. Nothing is stopping you from delaying an Eclipse (well, other than "MUST do MAX dps ALL the TIME1!!.

Tbh, I'm getting exhausted reading this. Worst case you're going 10 seconds without empowered casts. You must know how bad it feels to cast even one unempowered cast with current moonkin. Just imagine how bad a handful of them will feel. How can this be fun?

[huth]

Tbh, I'm getting exhausted reading this. Worst case you're going 10 seconds without empowered casts. You must know how bad it feels to cast even one unempowered cast with current moonkin. Just imagine how bad a handful of them will feel. How can this be fun?

Not having every spell empowered also means they can make the base spell more powerfull.

[Lahis]

Not having every spell empowered also means they can make the base spell more powerfull.

But in practice they're counting for extending Eclipses for long and instantly triggering the other one so the base spell will hit like a wet noodle.