Aftermath of the Fourth War

[Saltysquidoon]

I understand this isn't ins reflected in-game but didn't the forsaken (and thus the horde) lose control of the majority of lorderon because most of the territory was evacuated before the alliance arrived to UC and then to org from UC and then UC being nuked?
Was there a part of the war campaign where anybody attempted to retake that land?

[Raisei]

The Horde's entire identity was supplanted with something prefferable to the Alliance, basically ending the faction.

Exhibit A

Considering the Horde is ready to disband because their so-called identity as blood-thirsty savages was removed, I would say the Alliance absolutely won this war. Even if we lost some areas, since the Horde members have effectively given up on their faction we could just take them back now. Baine is on our side and or enslaved by Anduin after all, right?

[VinceVega]

The horde lost the horde.

Rather the horde became a horde and lost the hivemind/overlord dynamic

[TigTone]

Exhibit A

Considering the Horde is ready to disband because their so-called identity as blood-thirsty savages was removed, I would say the Alliance absolutely won this war. Even if we lost some areas, since the Horde members have effectively given up on their faction we could just take them back now. Baine is on our side and or enslaved by Anduin after all, right?

I always found it funny how some people only liked the horde when they went full on stupid murderous like the old horde enslaved by the demons.

Maybe that’s what they want to be enslaved by demons.

[Nerovar]

I sure love playing the good guys™ who only exist to remind the Horde about their honorable past (which of course involves mass killings of Alliance races) and who are above vain and worldly concepts such as 'maintaining ancestral territories', 'reparations', 'justice' and 'self-interest'. At the end of the day, no matter how hard we got outsmarted, how many territories were completely wrecked and depopulated we can still take comfort in the fact that Blizzard will tell us we won because we convinced the Horde to be epic reddit wholesome 100 again.

[matrix123mko]

I give you that. But the entire Lordaeron? The forsaken still have plenty of settlements in Lordaeron: Deathknell, Bulwark, the Sepulcher, Tarren Mill, (Durnholde), Strahnbrad (though that’s technically Alterac), Andorhal.

They went through it so it is more than likely that a lot of it was sacked on some degree.

Vol’dun is less a wasteland than Telogrus, considering the resources it bears.

Vol'dun is inhabitable but it is not a place where you can create an agriculture. Telogrus is doesn't have that either but has more things to be explored.

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Rather the horde became a horde and lost the hivemind/overlord dynamic

If by Horde you mean self-aggression and obedience to God Emperor.

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Exhibit A

Considering the Horde is ready to disband because their so-called identity as blood-thirsty savages was removed, I would say the Alliance absolutely won this war. Even if we lost some areas, since the Horde members have effectively given up on their faction we could just take them back now. Baine is on our side and or enslaved by Anduin after all, right?

Take it all. The Horde is nothing. We can only hope that Void Lords are preparing an invasion that will put end to Alliance and their obedient servants.

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I sure love playing the good guys™ who only exist to remind the Horde about their honorable past (which of course involves mass killings of Alliance races) and who are above vain and worldly concepts such as 'maintaining ancestral territories', 'reparations', 'justice' and 'self-interest'. At the end of the day, no matter how hard we got outsmarted, how many territories were completely wrecked and depopulated we can still take comfort in the fact that Blizzard will tell us we won because we convinced the Horde to be epic reddit wholesome 100 again.

Alliance is above these wordly concepts. After all, they obliterated Stonespire Tribe that wanted to "maintain ancestral territories" instead of giving it to dwarves to mine.

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I always found it funny how some people only liked the horde when they went full on stupid murderous like the old horde enslaved by the demons.

Maybe that’s what they want to be enslaved by demons.

Enslaving demons would be good too. Anyway, demons are still better than Anduin, who despite being a pretty creature is terribly boring.

[Nerovar]

Alliance is above these wordly concepts. After all, they obliterated Stonespire Tribe that wanted to "maintain ancestral territories" instead of giving it to dwarves to mine.
.

Can we get Fs in chat for Camp Taurajo, the greatest tragedy in the history of Azeroth?

General Hawthorne, who led the assault, had nonetheless ordered his men to give the townsfolk an opening in their defensive lines for the civilians to escape. Baine Bloodhoof believed that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target, as the camp trained hunters and warriors, and the tauren army only moved in after the late General Hawthorne had ensured that the civilians of Camp Taurajo would be allowed to leave unharmed, as he didn't give the order to massacre anyone and refused to slaughter civilians. The survivors, along with some of the survivors of Honor's Stand, fled to Camp Una'fe in the Overgrowth.

The fact that you thought this was a poignant example of Alliance aggression only proves my point.

[EbaumsTipster]

Nothing will happen until Blizzard feels like doing another Cata-type update (some hints that it will be 10.0 but nothing confirmed).

[Nerovar]

Nothing will happen until Blizzard feels like doing another Cata-type update (some hints that it will be 10.0 but nothing confirmed).

It might make sense. We've got comments from NPCs in Legion that state time passes differently in Shadowlands (Salanar the Acherus horse master guy states that only days passed for him since he helped the player DK get his steed in Wotlk whereas years have passed in the real world). So they could definitely do a timejump and give us a new world state with updated zones.

[EbaumsTipster]

It might make sense. We've got comments from NPCs in Legion that state time passes differently in Shadowlands (Attumen states that only days passed for him since he helped the player DK get his steed in Wotlk whereas years have passed in the real world). So they could definitely do a timejump and give us a new world state with updated zones.

Even more than the Shadowlands/timeskip thing, we have multiple hints that things are going down in the Old World (Nelfs/Worgen moving to Hyjal, Calia doing things in northern EK, possibility of Botani and Saberon outbreak in Kalimdor) and everything points to a Dragon theme for the next expansion that might tie into the idea of a "Cataclysm 2" the same way Legion was based around TBC and Shadowlands is based around Wrath.

[Nerovar]

Even more than the Shadowlands/timeskip thing, we have multiple hints that things are going down in the Old World (Nelfs/Worgen moving to Hyjal, Calia doing things in northern EK, possibility of Botani and Saberon outbreak in Kalimdor) and everything points to a Dragon theme for the next expansion that might tie into the idea of a "Cataclysm 2" the same way Legion was based around TBC and Shadowlands is based around Wrath.

Furthermore, this could also mean that the "vision" we had of Anduin fighting the Void isn't as far away as we originally may have thought back in Legion. If days in the Shadowlands = years in the real world then it would make sense for Anduin to be an old man once we return from the Shadowlands (assuming he's not coming with us) since the events of an expansion usually cover ~1 year in the lore.

[Mirn]

Exhibit A

Considering the Horde is ready to disband because their so-called identity as blood-thirsty savages was removed, I would say the Alliance absolutely won this war. Even if we lost some areas, since the Horde members have effectively given up on their faction we could just take them back now. Baine is on our side and or enslaved by Anduin after all, right?

It's less about the bloodthirsty savages identity and more the fact that the noble-savage identity that was achieved after Warcraft 3 feels utterly pointless (whether it comes back or not) as Blizzard has and will continue to write the Horde into a convenient and senseless villain every time they need a filler villain between big bads.

Most Horde players aren't ready to abandon the faction, the faction was taken from them and they are left with something that will always be treated to the villain bat, so the Alliance can whack at it. You cannot leave something that no longer exists. If you can't understand the fatigue most Horde players are feeling towards this old, tired, boring and hackneyed storyline then you are either very easily entertained or very new to WoW. Does that sound like a fun faction to you? A faction identity you'd like to play under and have influence much of the story you experience in the game?

And the Alliance will maintain the status-quo of Golden-boi's kingdom of human-centric, lawful-boring (featuring his many vassal-races/stooges), meaning the Horde will likely never be more than 'the thing Anduin has to make Alliance players fix... sort-of'. So if you like that then... good for you I guess?

[Mungho]

Can we get Fs in chat for Camp Taurajo, the greatest tragedy in the history of Azeroth?


The fact that you thought this was a poignant example of Alliance aggression only proves my point.

He said the STONESPIRE tauren, not Taurajo. In the former, during cataclysm, dwarves from Bael Modan slaughtered the entire tribe(save for one), even the women and children. The reason? Their town was sitting on some Titan artifacts. The fact that afterward, the main perpetrator, Twinbraid, said "Now with the removal of the natives, we can get to work" is incredibly cold-blooded. Horde-side in MOP, you fight Twinbraid, who chastises you for not living in peace with other races. Playing this I was like 'What?"

[Nerovar]

He said the STONESPIRE tauren, not Taurajo. In the former, during cataclysm, dwarves from Bael Modan slaughtered the entire tribe(save for one), even the women and children. The reason? Their town was sitting on some Titan artifacts. The fact that afterward, the main perpetrator, Twinbraid, said "Now with the removal of the natives, we can get to work" is incredibly cold-blooded. Horde-side in MOP, you fight Twinbraid, who chastises you for not living in peace with other races. Playing this I was like 'What?"

I can find no information online that says that the Dwarves killed "the entire tribe, even the women and children" (feel free to link it if you can find it). On wowpedia it says that the Tauren were driven away from the land they considered to be holy and that the Dwarves' operations were disruptive. Their attempts at finding a diplomatic solution failed which caused the Tauren to retaliate against the Dwarven transgression and raid their base of operations, killing the leader of the Dwarven digsite in the process.

Many innocent tauren lost their lives or were forced off their ancestral birthplace when the dwarves of Bael Modan arrived. My land must be reclaimed!

The work will be noisy and disruptive but our search is of far greater importance than the comfort of the local inhabitants. In fact, we've already had to drive a band of bull-men out of the area who were proving to be a nuisance.

I mean, sure, It's bad but we're still talking about a fucking digsite.

[Raisei]

It's less about the bloodthirsty savages identity and more the fact that the noble-savage identity that was achieved after Warcraft 3 feels utterly pointless (whether it comes back or not) as Blizzard has and will continue to write the Horde into a convenient and senseless villain every time they need a filler villain between big bads.

Many Horde players do actually want to be the villain, many others do not. Blizzard does not want the Horde to be the villain, but every time the Horde goes a new path away from being blood-thirsty idiots that blindly follow the warchief in boundless slaughter the Fanbase screams about their identity being stolen. Yes that might be a minority, but it is a vocal minority.
In essence you are villain batting yourself by kicking and shouting whenever a change occures within the Horde, without even knowing where that change leads, Blizzard is just reacting to your outcries. And yes, by that logic you will be nuking another Alliance city in 10.0.

Also, from the perspective of an Alliance player that has lost ANOTHER city during this expansion, just so the Horde gets a chance to be evil again, with NO PAYBACK whatsoever, I feel very little pity for you. "If you are nothing without your Bloodlust, then you shouldn't have it." Find a way to be interesting without being genocidal, or stay genocidal and have the decency to be wiped out like the other villains in the game, either way works.

Most Horde players aren't ready to abandon the faction, the faction was taken from them and they are left with something that will always be treated to the villain bat, so the Alliance can whack at it.

As BFA and MoP and even WoD clearly showed, there are never consequences for the (Ironj)Horde. That "Whacking" you speak of just does not happen. The Horde goes on a killing spree for some fabricated reason, nukes some Alliance cities, blights entire parts of the map and then blames their Warchief for everything while the rest of them go free.
The Alliance is basically the punching bag that the Horde gets to let out their frustration on whenever there are no demons, undead or faceless to kill and there are never any repercussions for this. The Alliance just walks away and waits for the next time some maniac starts a war again. So excuse me if I scoff at your fatigue of being the untouchable villains of the story.

You cannot leave something that no longer exists. If you can't understand the fatigue most Horde players are feeling towards this old, tired, boring and hackneyed storyline then you are either very easily entertained or very new to WoW. Does that sound like a fun faction to you?

Does being the constant victims of the bloodlust of the other faction with no option to actually strike back sound fun to you? No? Then you might realize why the Alliance playerbase only laughs about those cries. Your faction identity is a direct threat to the existence of the Alliance, so the sooner it goes the better for us.
Find some way to go on without war, like civilized people would and bombard Blizzard with ideas for that instead of demanding to go right back to slaughtering civilians. I mean how many years do you live in Orgrimmar and that place is still just a bunch of mudhuts in a desert. If the Horde would abandon war for just a few years and focus their considerable abilities on something else that place could be Las Vegas.

And the Alliance will maintain the status-quo of Golden-boi's kingdom of human-centric, lawful-boring (featuring his many vassal-races/stooges), meaning the Horde will likely never be more than 'the thing Anduin has to make Alliance players fix... sort-of'. So if you like that then... good for you I guess?

We have so many characters that are fun and insteresting. Just because you cannot see that does not make them any less so. Jaina has one of the longest and most tragic stories in the game, with character development at every corner. Anduin is visibly struggling with keeping his ideals intact with also being forced to be a strong King for his people and Genn is slowly turning from an isolationist with a bad temper to one of the most reliable people in the Kingdom.

If you need characters to be grey to black to be interesting I would say, stick to Game of Thrones, where every last characters is an evil bastard or becomes one. That is incredibly boring.

[Soon-TM]

If you need characters to be grey to black to be interesting I would say, stick to Game of Thrones, where every last characters is an evil bastard or becomes one. That is incredibly boring.

Did... You... Actually compare WC to GoT? Even with the !@#&show of the latter's two last seasons, characters were incredibly better portrayed than anything in WC. What is the equivalent of, say, Cersei or Baratheon?

Just a quick look at WC's main characters:

• Sylvanas: screeching, moustache twirling, omnicidal psycho.
• Anduin: goody goody two shoes, who can do no wrong. None that matters in the narrative, at least.
• Baine: a faithful Alliance employee, who cares little to nothing when Sylvanas raises his fellow Tauren into undeath, but gets outraged when she does the same to a single human corpse.
• Thrall: destroyed in Cataclysm when he became the Green Jesus, and hasn't really recovered.
• Jaina: the most mentally unstable character in the Alliance, who was on the verge of drowning Orgrimmar, suddenly saying that the Alliance can't press its advantage after BoD because Trolls would be sad.
• Saurfang: always mumbling about honour, but unable to call mak'gora (i.e. honourable fight) unless he has Anduin's blessing. And his army ofc.

And then you have a bunch of nobodies with the personality of a pile of bricks: Mayla, the Dwarven council, Malfurion, Gazlowe, etc. It's quite telling when the most memorable characters in BfA are completely secondary ones, such as Gallywix or Flynn.

[Vaedan]

Some are arguing that the Alliance won the Fourth War. However I can’t really see or get the feeling that they actually won:

Territories and civilizations the Alliance lost since Argus:
- Ashenvale: In the aftermath of the Garrosh war Ashenvale was given to the nightelves but the Horde conquered it in the War of Thorns.
- Teldrassil: Nothing but ashes.

Territories and civilizations the Alliance gained since Argus:
- Stromgarde and Arathi Highlands, though Stromgarde wasn’t really horde after Galen broke off the Forsaken.
- Kul Tiras
- Mechagon probably, though arguably.

Other stuff the Alliance “gained” since Argus:
- The Vindicaar wasn’t really gained, since it was crafted by the MU Draenei. In fact that’s all the Draenei as a whole have been working towards ever since they stranded on Azeroth.
- Telogrus Rift: while technically it was a gain, it has literally no value. It’s just a void infested rock with no natural resources.


Territories and civilizations the Horde lost since Argus:
- Undercity, while the civilization was evacuated and it wasn’t really taken by the Alliance.

Territories and civilizations the Horde gained since Argus:
- Ashenvale: No indication that it went back to the nightelves.
- Suramar: The zone and the city.
- High Mountain and Thunder Totem.
- Zandalar, and while the Alliance did kill the king, the population and zones stays Horde.


In the end the Horde only lost the structure of Undercity, not even its population while the Alliance lost so much more and didn’t get anything to really make it up for. Also the Horde didn’t get any reparations or have to make up for what they did. Or did I miss something? Because it barely feels like a win.

Mission table states that Alliance is making progress in Ashenvale. Might not be cannon, thou.

I also agree that we should have Ashenvale Warfront. 8.1 should feature Night Warrior scenario, which ends by reclamation of Darkshore and pushing Horde to the Ashenvale. It could also make more logical dynamics to Sylvanas' decisions... while Tyrande and empowered night elves spread through Ashenvale, getting closer and closer to Orgrimmar, and also loosing Golden Fleet during Battle of Dazar'Alor, Sylvanas feels she needs to accelerate her plans...

As for the Telogrus Rift, it could be interesting source actually. Remember Netherstorm, that barren rocks with no life on them? They were so precious that there is also battleground dedicated to that zone. Why? It is filled with energy which was harvested by ethereals and blood elves. What Telogrus looks like? Like voidy version of Netherstorm. Who are inhabitants of Telogrus? Elves, who have history of harvesting energy... While this is just a theory, it could work. Other than that, it is place of research, which is not to be underestimated. What a shame we didn't see some "void mana-bomb" made by void elves as a morally gray means of contributing to the war.

Also, you comparing Voldun to Telogrus is not really adequate. In the first place, you should compare Voldun to some other part of Kul Tiras. Tiragarde, Drustvar and Stormsong are all places rich for resources and every single part of Kul Tiras is way more valuable than Voldun and Nazmir combined and multiplied. You could also compare Voldun to Mechagon in a logic of allied race homelands. Still, Mechagon is way more valuable than desert where you send your criminals to die. You can also realize that with addition of Vulpera, Horde didn't get any new lands, they already have claim on Voldun, but the Alliance somewhat get foothold in Mechagon, which was strictly neutral before.

As for Legion allied race territories - Suramar went through brutal civil war, majority of the population sided with Elisande and were dealt with, there will also be great amount of civilians in Suramar too, so while spectacular, I wouldn't say Horde get so much from Nightborne. Highmountain is actually pretty good deal, considering the region is rich on animals and ore. Alliance gained a group of former blood elves, which means they got stronger while Horde lost a group of their people.

Arathi is pretty huge gain for Alliance as well. The region is rich on resources, it is place where elemental power manifests and it gives Alliance strategic stronghold for further expansions in northern kingdoms. I really miss some progression on Alterac, Gilneas and Lordaeron.

Put it as you like, but the Alliance gained superior territories in Kul Tiras to those of Horde on Zandalar and in other parts of world, the grip of the Horde on Ashenvale is uncertain and other territories were lost by them. I think Alliance could make better, but it's not as bad.

There should be definitely reparations from Horde part, paid in blood elven women, which would spend the rest of their lives in Goldshire.

[Dellis0991]

Some are arguing that the Alliance won the Fourth War. However I can’t really see or get the feeling that they actually won:

Territories and civilizations the Alliance lost since Argus:
- Ashenvale: In the aftermath of the Garrosh war Ashenvale was given to the nightelves but the Horde conquered it in the War of Thorns.
- Teldrassil: Nothing but ashes.

Territories and civilizations the Alliance gained since Argus:
- Stromgarde and Arathi Highlands, though Stromgarde wasn’t really horde after Galen broke off the Forsaken.
- Kul Tiras
- Mechagon probably, though arguably.

Other stuff the Alliance “gained” since Argus:
- The Vindicaar wasn’t really gained, since it was crafted by the MU Draenei. In fact that’s all the Draenei as a whole have been working towards ever since they stranded on Azeroth.
- Telogrus Rift: while technically it was a gain, it has literally no value. It’s just a void infested rock with no natural resources.


Territories and civilizations the Horde lost since Argus:
- Undercity, while the civilization was evacuated and it wasn’t really taken by the Alliance.

Territories and civilizations the Horde gained since Argus:
- Ashenvale: No indication that it went back to the nightelves.
- Suramar: The zone and the city.
- High Mountain and Thunder Totem.
- Zandalar, and while the Alliance did kill the king, the population and zones stays Horde.


In the end the Horde only lost the structure of Undercity, not even its population while the Alliance lost so much more and didn’t get anything to really make it up for. Also the Horde didn’t get any reparations or have to make up for what they did. Or did I miss something? Because it barely feels like a win.

It was a win for nobody, there was no solid resolution, just a bunch dead bodies ,hurt feelings, and crazy bitch running wild.

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Exhibit A

Considering the Horde is ready to disband because their so-called identity as blood-thirsty savages was removed, I would say the Alliance absolutely won this war. Even if we lost some areas, since the Horde members have effectively given up on their faction we could just take them back now. Baine is on our side and or enslaved by Anduin after all, right?

You know the funny thing is blizz writers is setting Anduin up for a big ol' fuck up and I bet it will lead to Anduin having a fall out with Baine and probably some of the leaders of the Alliance.

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Can we get Fs in chat for Camp Taurajo, the greatest tragedy in the history of Azeroth?


The fact that you thought this was a poignant example of Alliance aggression only proves my point.

Camp Taurajo was bad but the seige of Breannadam was really horrific.

[Soon-TM]

the siege of Brennadam was really horrific.

This reminded me of Thalyssra. In Legion, she was heading the resistance against a selfish, self serving ass who had delivered her people into the hands of a cosmic enemy entity.

Fast forward to BfA, Thalyssra is siding with another selfish, self serving ass who wants to deliver, not only her people, but all of the Horde, into the hands of a cosmic, enemy entity.

She's perhaps the most glaring example of the schizophrenic Horde writing since at least Cata. You never know if the characters are meant to be portrayed as hypocrite pos's or if the penmanship is just THAT sloppy.

[LemonDemonGirl]

And then you have a bunch of nobodies with the personality of a pile of bricks: Mayla, the Dwarven council, Malfurion, Gazlowe, etc. It's quite telling when the most memorable characters in BfA are completely secondary ones, such as Gallywix or Flynn.

Bwonsamdi too. He's better than most Horde characters