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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But what about the people who want to make every choice? I am a paladin but there are now 4 different ways to play paladin and I can only have one unless I run four paladins. 12 classes is enough for me I don't need 48 classes. A Night Fae Paladin will play distinctively different than a Kyrian one.
    Why do you expect to be able to have everything? That's a silly notion.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  2. #542
    My one and only gripe with the Covenants... Is that I want the Transmog stuff from Covenant A but I want the ability from Covenant C. Looking at the big picture though, I am happy to see a choice that actually matters, and I see it as encouragement to choose what you like because you won't know if the abilities will be nerfed or buffed in the future, so you can choose what looks the most fun to you.

    As a holy priest, i like the idea of being able to use my heals to deal damage with. It's one of the big flaws Holy has right now, we can't keep up with other healers in terms of damage while healng. We'll be able to hard burst stuff with our Holy Words, and then go back to healing.

    Now we just need something useful to cast while moving, instead of Renew which doesn't scale off our best stat.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Why do you expect to be able to have everything? That's a silly notion.
    Right? the demand to have access to everything is a big reason WoW is what it currently is. Limitations in design is not a bad thing.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Why do you expect to be able to have everything? That's a silly notion.
    To be able to have everything with YOUR CLASS is the achieve to reach for many players in WoW

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    Right? the demand to have access to everything is a big reason WoW is what it currently is. Limitations in design is not a bad thing.
    Which limitations we had in BC and WOTLK? Most of my friends left WoW for bad class desing pruned to the ground, rly low new content, like 3 expansions and 2 new dungeons in 2 years of expansion. Bug since alpha that still there unfixed etc.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarou View Post
    To be able to have everything with YOUR CLASS is the achieve to reach for many players in WoW
    Yeah, you can have all covenants, just not at the same time. Just like you cant have all specs at the same time.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  6. #546
    I don't mind being hard locked into one covenant. For transmog and stuff. Sad of course because i want it all... who doesn't. But i can show it off with the transmogs an feel part of something. THAT i welcome.

    The covenant specific abilities i welcome to because they are not that gamebreaking. Not even the Venthyr teleport.

    But the Class specific abilties.... they don't sit well with me. If they would be balanced good with the soulbinds i don't care. But they won't be. Blizz can't balance it. And they can't really change it to late into the game either because people invested to much into it. That is why Infinite Stars and Twilight Devastation are still so extremely strong. Players invested to much to nerf them into the ground. They even said so.

    This basically mean you push a portion of the playerbase into a covenant they don't really enjoy. And i think this will be way more than just the mythic raiders. Because more than just them care about that. So you have a portion of the playerbase who have to deal with an aesthetic they don't like with the whole expansion... as it apparantly is meant to progress through the whole thing which i (in itself) also welcome.

    If i have to take venthyr with my druid... i will feel like shit because i absolutly HATE the aestehtic. And if i take say.. Nightfae... i have to deal with being worse than other Moonkins on my skill level as a given... great... so either i am worse or i have to deal with an ugly covenant that will follow me for 2 years.... what a great an meaningful choice i have to make here... so much RP... such fun... and yes i am bitter about it. Because it is a great idea again soured with borrowed power and forced choices...

    take the class ability out of it. you still have all of the other stuff including the covenant ability.

    But i know i know i am "mentally sick" for caring about that stuff. We are less than 0,1% who even cares about optimizing characters. And we are all around bad people apparently for thinking that way.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I don't mind being hard locked into one covenant. For transmog and stuff. Sad of course because i want it all... who doesn't. But i can show it off with the transmogs an feel part of something. THAT i welcome.

    The covenant specific abilities i welcome to because they are not that gamebreaking. Not even the Venthyr teleport.

    But the Class specific abilties.... they don't sit well with me. If they would be balanced good with the soulbinds i don't care. But they won't be. Blizz can't balance it. And they can't really change it to late into the game either because people invested to much into it. That is why Infinite Stars and Twilight Devastation are still so extremely strong. Players invested to much to nerf them into the ground. They even said so.

    This basically mean you push a portion of the playerbase into a covenant they don't really enjoy. And i think this will be way more than just the mythic raiders. Because more than just them care about that. So you have a portion of the playerbase who have to deal with an aesthetic they don't like with the whole expansion... as it apparantly is meant to progress through the whole thing which i (in itself) also welcome.

    If i have to take venthyr with my druid... i will feel like shit because i absolutly HATE the aestehtic. And if i take say.. Nightfae... i have to deal with being worse than other Moonkins on my skill level as a given... great... so either i am worse or i have to deal with an ugly covenant that will follow me for 2 years.... what a great an meaningful choice i have to make here... so much RP... such fun... and yes i am bitter about it. Because it is a great idea again soured with borrowed power and forced choices...

    take the class ability out of it. you still have all of the other stuff including the covenant ability.

    But i know i know i am "mentally sick" for caring about that stuff. We are less than 0,1% who even cares about optimizing characters. And we are all around bad people apparently for thinking that way.
    Yeah, RP includes choices that are not optimal in every aspect. What do you expect? The word for the ideal possibility in every scenario is Utopia.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Yeah, RP includes choices that are not optimal in every aspect. What do you expect? The word for the ideal possibility in every scenario is Utopia.
    If i want that i play Baldurs Gate, Mass Effect or something like this. Not a game where i am constantly compared to other players in every content i do except when i play all by myself... but then i would not play wow for more than 2 months per expansion to get the story.

    Also i repeatedly said i like choice. But not in that way. Not such a significant choice that will haunt me for 2 years.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    If i want that i play Baldurs Gate, Mass Effect or something like this. Not a game where i am constantly compared to other players in every content i do except when i play all by myself... but then i would not play wow for more than 2 months per expansion to get the story.

    Also i repeatedly said i like choice. But not in that way. Not such a significant choice that will haunt me for 2 years.
    You are getting compared? And are you satisfied? Are you Number 1 in everything? If not, your argument is faulty.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    You are getting compared? And are you satisfied? Are you Number 1 in everything? If not, your argument is faulty.
    Can you not go play games built around the concept of making your own spec?

    WoW has never been that game with fights that have required talents to beat to encounters needing certain classes.

    Rather then trying to change a 15 year old game to be something its not why not go play a game that is?

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    You are getting compared? And are you satisfied? Are you Number 1 in everything? If not, your argument is faulty.
    No it is not. What live do you live where stuff gets only compared if it is perfect?

    I did not have Infinite Stars for nearly 4!! Months... and it felt SHITTY as fuck. Did my guild still took me with them in raids? Yes they did because we like each other.

    Did it feel good? No not at all. Like a freaking pity party. But that was not my choice that was simply bad luck... reeeeaaaaaly bad luck.

    But if i am the one who chose it. That is a different story. I chose to be worse. To have a visually pleasing game. Or i chose to be on par. With a incredibly shitty aesthetic. Nice.
    So the only way to get out of it is to either don't care about the story and visuals or don't care about what i can bring to my group. It is basically a big fu for everyone who cares about what they can bring to the team... in an MMO unless you are lucky enough to have the two match.

    That is not a choice between two things that give you something. That is a choice between pest an cholera. No matter the outcome it feels shitty unless you are really lucky. And then you have two years of being a worse player or having a bad ingame world experience. I do not understand why you people don't see the side of those who have doubts about that system and why it can and probably will feel bad for a significant portion of the playerbase.

    I said REPEATEDLY that is do support a choice and even a permanent one. But not one that will cripple you this hard for the whole expansion in one way or the other.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    No it is not. What live do you live where stuff gets only compared if it is perfect?

    I did not have Infinite Stars for nearly 4!! Months... and it felt SHITTY as fuck. Did my guild still took me with them in raids? Yes they did because we like each other.

    Did it feel good? No not at all. Like a freaking pity party. But that was not my choice that was simply bad luck... reeeeaaaaaly bad luck.

    But if i am the one who chose it. That is a different story. I chose to be worse. To have a visually pleasing game. Or i chose to be on par. With a incredibly shitty aesthetic. Nice.
    So the only way to get out of it is to either don't care about the story and visuals or don't care about what i can bring to my group. It is basically a big fu for everyone who cares about what they can bring to the team... in an MMO unless you are lucky enough to have the two match.

    That is not a choice between two things that give you something. That is a choice between pest an cholera. No matter the outcome it feels shitty unless you are really lucky. And then you have two years of being a worse player or having a bad ingame world experience. I do not understand why you people don't see the side of those who have doubts about that system and why it can and probably will feel bad for a significant portion of the playerbase.

    I said REPEATEDLY that is do support a choice and even a permanent one. But not one that will cripple you this hard for the whole expansion in one way or the other.
    How hard is it going to "cripple" you? And why would anyone use such extreme words to illustrate what is essentially just a single ability? I can't imagine any single ability that makes or breaks you in any content.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    No it is not. What live do you live where stuff gets only compared if it is perfect?

    I did not have Infinite Stars for nearly 4!! Months... and it felt SHITTY as fuck. Did my guild still took me with them in raids? Yes they did because we like each other.

    Did it feel good? No not at all. Like a freaking pity party. But that was not my choice that was simply bad luck... reeeeaaaaaly bad luck.

    But if i am the one who chose it. That is a different story. I chose to be worse. To have a visually pleasing game. Or i chose to be on par. With a incredibly shitty aesthetic. Nice.
    So the only way to get out of it is to either don't care about the story and visuals or don't care about what i can bring to my group. It is basically a big fu for everyone who cares about what they can bring to the team... in an MMO unless you are lucky enough to have the two match.

    That is not a choice between two things that give you something. That is a choice between pest an cholera. No matter the outcome it feels shitty unless you are really lucky. And then you have two years of being a worse player or having a bad ingame world experience. I do not understand why you people don't see the side of those who have doubts about that system and why it can and probably will feel bad for a significant portion of the playerbase.

    I said REPEATEDLY that is do support a choice and even a permanent one. But not one that will cripple you this hard for the whole expansion in one way or the other.
    Worse or on par? Because Covenants are not to be changed and make up more then 5% of your performance?
    You are exaggerating. Badly.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    How hard is it going to "cripple" you? And why would anyone use such extreme words to illustrate what is essentially just a single ability? I can't imagine any single ability that makes or breaks you in any content.
    Well... if you enjoy pvp past 2k, mythic raiding, and/or mythic+ past 18. A single ability is rather huge never mind the soulbinds. Each mode values different things more and to far greater degrees.

    A ability that only adds movement is sometimes taken over a output ability depending on class and content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Worse or on par? Because Covenants are not to be changed and make up more then 5% of your performance?
    You are exaggerating. Badly.
    See above.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    Well... if you enjoy pvp past 2k, mythic raiding, and/or mythic+ past 18. A single ability is rather huge never mind the soulbinds. Each mode values different things more and to far greater degrees.

    A ability that only adds movement is sometimes taken over a output ability depending on class and content.
    I know about these things, however I'm not certain that the number of people who engage with the game in this manner are a particularly significant enough portion of the game's players to compromise the system so that they sleep better.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I know about these things, however I'm not certain that the number of people who engage with the game in this manner are a particularly significant enough portion of the game's players to compromise the system so that they sleep better.
    I don't know if drastically changing a game that has shown its resistant to hostile to these kind of changes in the past are really justified now after failing over and over again over these past few years

  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I don't know if drastically changing a game that has shown its resistant to hostile to these kind of changes in the past are really justified now after failing over and over again over these past few years
    Probably not, but they're trying something a little different. I haven't really been burned by them these last 13 years I've played so I'm willing to see where this goes. I hope it works out tbh, because the broader change in game philosophy could really shift the game one way or another.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Probably not, but they're trying something a little different. I haven't really been burned by them these last 13 years I've played so I'm willing to see where this goes. I hope it works out tbh, because the broader change in game philosophy could really shift the game one way or another.
    I can't say I want the game im playing to keep shifting I rather just have the game I enjoyed stay the game I enjoyed. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply make a different game built around this new philosophy?

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I can't say I want the game im playing to keep shifting I rather just have the game I enjoyed stay the game I enjoyed. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply make a different game built around this new philosophy?
    Then you're going to have to live with the fact that you're in a very small group that isn't worth catering to. Most people will get bored if there isn't a bit of change every now and then.

  20. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I can't say I want the game im playing to keep shifting I rather just have the game I enjoyed stay the game I enjoyed. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply make a different game built around this new philosophy?
    I don't think any long-running mmo-type game can continue with the same formula for any serious length of time without stagnating. The only games I know of that do are all single-player oriented. You may have to reconcile with the fact that things will change, primarily because the audience is ever-shifting. Nothing stays the same forever. :\

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