Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[Big Thanks]

I mean, it's a social game, where the norms are dictated by the community and community made it clear that balance and viability are more important, simply because that's what gets you into the groups.

When the dust settles, it's really nice for roleplay that you can do some total soup of stuff character that fights with weird weapons and setups, but this simply crashes into walls of reality where your sorry ass simply won't be picked for any sort of reasonable group activity.

From re-reading my post...i have no idea what is the conclusion.

I guess MY conclusion is, ill just play another game.

Because WoW PvE (and with the help of its target audience) is nothing more than an "optimization of a limited 2D game from the early 2000's"
It is what it is...

[rrayy]

It is a choice. It could take months to get everything. Just because you will eventually get it all does not mean you don't choose how you get there.

There is no choice if everything is available to you and there is no consequence for your choice. Just go back to Artifact weapons. What choice was there? None because you ended up with everything and sacrificed nothing. You can't have a choice when it doesn't matter what you pick.

[Acidbaron]

RPG's that came out the last years that had more choices that were final ended up being rather popular.

[ymirsson]

Isn't the point there though more about replayability? You want to play the RPG multiple times with different characters for different playstyles (and story choices and companion choices etc.).

Yeah, replaying them felt more satisfying because the choices were meaningful. They were meaningful because they had an impact in the gameworld and were not easily reversed if at all.

[Acidbaron]

Isn't the point there though more about replayability? You want to play the RPG multiple times with different characters for different playstyles (and story choices and companion choices etc.).

Possibly but aren't most of us playing alts in that regard and i believe SL is to be more alt friendly. I do get your point that people want to see it from different angles but still that doesn't take away that people who like RPG's aren't that opposed to this idea of "choice is final" as some claim.

[Gaidax]

From re-reading my post...i have no idea what is the conclusion.

I guess MY conclusion is, ill just play another game.

Because WoW PvE (and with the help of its target audience) is nothing more than an "optimization of a limited 2D game from the early 2000's"
It is what it is...

I mean, you should just go ahead and implement your advice there. You said it 500 times already.

It's just that, if you want limitless (or at least huge) customization and freedom to do just about anything, then WoW is simply not the game for that and frankly never was. The faster some people realize that, the less pain for themselves and others it will be.

Blizzard tries to add more options, you do have 36 specs, each of them plays in a different way (or at least distinct way in some respect) but the overriding directive which community has decided on is that balance trumps everything. Yes, there is plenty of feedback that calls for customization and increased options, but in the end of the day - it's not worth much if said options end up deemed unviable and with WoW community it often means single digit gaps in performance to declare that something is shit and a noob trap.

In other words, you are not going to milk D&D experience out of WoW because it's simply not that game. If you want that - you can fire up Pathfinder: Kingmaker or some such and have effectively limitless options when it comes to character creation, because in the end of the day Troll, Fey and evil humans don't care there whether you are 8% worse than that munchkin spec.

[Laughingjack]

I completely laugh at the idea that "true gameplay customization" in MMORPG's is the talent system we have today in WoW.
If your idea of "true RPG gameplay customization" is changing talents between AoE or Single target in between pulls...lets just say...we cant be friends anymore lol

Customization in WoW evolved into what we have today BECAUSE of the gameplay limitations from being:
-PvE
-Holy Trinity
-Linear combat System

What you so much enjoy to do (min maxing) stems from the FACT, "PvE in WoW is a 2D game from the early 2000's", so the customization evolved to optimize a "2D game from the early 2000's"

What you so much love...is nothing but a joke to the RPG genre.
Also when you ALWAYS min max you are no longer playing a Role Playing Game, you are playing an MMO about min maxing.

Maybe try and understand what you so much enjoy about the game (min maxing in WoW PvE) goes against everything a Roleplaying Game is and designing the entire customization system of this game around this "crap" is a paradox in itself (for the RPG genre)

Right... and if I want a rpg I will just buy one. I don't expect nor particularly want wow to be like baldur's gate or maple story. I find people pushing for this new restrictive system to want a jarring change to a game that clearly isn't designed to handle it. Even then the whole "permanent spec" idea is a rarity in rpgs and is rarely seen in any modern release.

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Ah yes, so you absolutely NEED any possible ability at your disposal, or the game becomes worthless? Do you play 12 classes at once? We already have lots of decisions to make regarding the actual class/race/spec/talent to choose, so why should this be any different? And if its a slog to change, unlike talents for example, why would anyone expect to play at the highest level without commitment at the highest level? Mythic raiders already play several classes during progression, so i am told, why stop there? You want it? Earn it.

Whereas people playing a character whom they are attached to just take one choice and stick with it.

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In all your posts you never really defined the "true customization". And i dare say every single computer game is limited in that regard.

Why is it non high end players always want high end players to grind pointless shit to play their chosen content?

You don't see me asking you to clear mythic to unlock lfr do you?

[Acidbaron]

We already have twelve classes. Do we need 48?

I am guessing here you are adding the covenant abilities to the classes to get that number?

Personally i don't look at it that way. Also taking my point a bit to the extreme, so that's not very realistic or even what i said. I don't see any harm in people get different experiences and playstyles linked through the covenants and the experience is also not completely tied to what class they play. My point remains that people aren't all that opposed to locking them into a choice once they get into the game, people here aren't really either it is more their concern of being the best in every aspect of the game that may or may not be hindered by covenant abilities.

[Laughingjack]

I am guessing here you are adding the covenant abilities to the classes to get that number?

Personally i don't look at it that way. Also taking my point a bit to the extreme, so that's not very realistic or even what i said. I don't see any harm in people get different experiences and playstyles linked through the covenants and the experience is also not completely tied to what class they play. My point remains that people aren't all that opposed to locking them into a choice once they get into the game, people here aren't really either it is more their concern of being the best in every aspect of the game that may or may not be hindered by covenant abilities.

You don't see the harm because your extremely selfish and know it won't effect the low level of gameplay you enjoy...

It seems a common theme here. So long as it doesn't harm lfr players seem to care little for how the game operates.We already have a host of dead specs in pvp and pve. We really don't need to add more to that do we?

[ymirsson]

Why is it non high end players always want high end players to grind pointless shit to play their chosen content?

So there is a reason that high end players can feel superior?

[Laughingjack]

I think there is a weird idea that "maybe if there are a lot of hard locked choices, people will be forced to abandon optimization". Lol no, people will keep trying to optimize. You will see people prefer the Havoc Venthyr DH for M+ or whatever the optimal choice ends up to be and people will probably change covenants if there is a heavy nerf.
Who this fucks the most? Hybrids. Tanks and Healers. You know, the people you do not want to force to make a choice because it then ruins queues for everyone else.

Multiple specs will be hurt as well as people who enjoy multiple higher end game play. I can't see a build working well for mythic raiding and pvp past 2k myself. It annoys me to no end that the people who want these " Choices are hard!" mentality seem to entirely play content where they could afk run it without any talents spent at all and still succeed.

The desire to be a snowflake in a mmo is a destructive desire for those who don't want to actually earn it.

[Nnyco]

We already have twelve classes. Do we need 48?

One new ability is an entire new class now? Are all of your 40k+ posts that dumb?

[Laughingjack]

So there is a reason that high end players can feel superior?

This doesn't make any sense... me clearing mythic raids makes me superior to a player who do lfr...in a video game.

If I get glad it makes me superior to someone who plays unranked games... in a video game.

Skill pays the bills. Adding pointless ass grinds to the game to make the guy who plays only lfr,heroic dungeons, and world quests feel superior because he grinded out a pointless currency that only acts as a weird time spent gate keeping mechanic is actively harming the game.

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Hard choices create replayability right? That's what we agreed on. Let me ask you, how many times do you usually have to replay a CRPG to get through everything? People usually match different gameplay builds with different storyline choices. And you often can experience some of the alternative gameplay through companions in party games. So I guess you'll replay the game 4-5 times?

With WoW you already have twelve different ways to experience the game through classes, all of which are fairly distinct in gameplay and aesthetics. Twelves ways already. Why add an extra layer of hard locked choice? Isn't twelve enough?

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Oh don't even start on pvp. Imo covenants should not even be active on pvp. Same with the utter mess that is corruption right now.

Corruption isn't active in pvp tournaments actually since blizzard is so embarrassed by how much it breaks the game...

[ymirsson]

This doesn't make any sense... me clearing mythic raids makes me superior to a player who does lfr...in a video game.

If I get glad it makes me superior to someone who plays unranked games... in a video game.

Skill pays the bills. Adding pointless ass grinds to the game to make the guy who plays only lfr,heroic dungeons, and world quests feel superior because he grinded out a pointless currency that only acts as a weird time spent gate keeping mechanic is actively harming the game.

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Corruption isn't active in pvp tournaments actually since blizzard is so embarrassed by how much it breaks the game...

I was being sarcastic. In case of Covenants, the reason was already given and is hotly debated: to feel like you are making an actual choice, a meaningful one with consequences. If you are able to change willy nilly, it becomes a moot point, just like specs and talents, it's a streamlined borefest in my opinion. We don't need the levels of rigidness that Vanilla had(amplified by the poor design and inherent balance), of course, but why not try out a bit more old school mechanics?

And the usual gatekeepers are not the LFR crowd, which is mostly non communicating, nor the WF raiders and alike, it's usually the try hards and basements dwellers who want to set a bar... in a video game.

I'm not saying that this whole system couldn't become the next shitshow, but im willing to try it out. And im hoping that this will give me a specific sense of satisfaction which i had not in a long time playing WoW.

[Laughingjack]

I was being sarcastic. In case of Covenants, the reason was already given and is hotly debated: to feel like you are making an actual choice, a meaningful one with consequences. If you are able to change willy nilly, it becomes a moot point, just like specs and talents, it's a streamlined borefest in my opinion. We don't need the levels of rigidness that Vanilla had(amplified by the poor design and inherent balance), of course, but why not try out a bit more old school mechanics?

And the usual gatekeepers are not the LFR crowd, which is mostly non communicating, nor the WF raiders and alike, it's usually the try hards and basements dwellers who want to set a bar... in a video game.

I'm not saying that this whole system couldn't become the next shitshow, but im willing to try it out. And im hoping that this will give me a specific sense of satisfaction which i had not in a long time playing WoW.

You don't make actual meaningful choices... few people do outside of the top end of the player base when they change their build to counter a specific boss or arena comp.

This system is actively worse then old school wow. Vanilla never asked you for massive grinds to respec just gold.

Your also wrong... weirdly enough LFR players demand the most gate keeping out of any player group. By demanding a grind system and free loot you ever raise the bar on what a fresh toon need to join the harder difficulties. You create on of the most toxic knock on effects the game has ever seen.

I know this system is going to be a shit show because I remember talent trees, glyphs, ap, azerite, essences, and corruption, I know how wow players work. You are going to see 80%+ of people playing the same spec all picking the exact same covenant for it. You just weirdly want a grind to swap between pve and pvp.

That or you lack the game knowledge to understand why this system would create that problem.

[munkeyinorbit]

If i want that i play Baldurs Gate, Mass Effect or something like this. Not a game where i am constantly compared to other players in every content i do except when i play all by myself... but then i would not play wow for more than 2 months per expansion to get the story.

Also i repeatedly said i like choice. But not in that way. Not such a significant choice that will haunt me for 2 years.

You like choice. Except for when it's meaningful. I get it.

[Laughingjack]

You like choice. Except for when it's meaningful. I get it.

I mean your meaningful choice is going to be to take whatever a guide tells you to pick... I don't understand why we are pretending this is some new concept to the community.

To quote the npc's my alt runs into

"I've heard this story before"

[ymirsson]

I mean your meaningful choice is going to be to take whatever a guide tells you to pick... I don't understand why we are pretending this is some new concept to the community.

To quote the npc's my alt runs into

"I've heard this story before"

Well, now you are assuming that i do exactly as "the guide" tells me. And that everyone besides you is a LFR raider. Whatever that exactly entails.

[VinceVega]

You like choice. Except for when it's meaningful. I get it.

Not "that" meaningfull in an MMOrpg. Emphasis on MMO.

I love Kingmaker, Baldurs Gate, Tabletops etc. for exactly that. Hard Meaningful choices. But that has no place in an MMO. And don't start again with its an RPG. It is first an MMO. Then a RPG. And always was.

Now they implement this halfbaked forced non-choice into a game. Split the playerbase and 1 month after release people cry how groups search for people with specific covenants. And yes i probably will do that. Not with my friends but with PuGs. Because i don't know much about that person except how they are skilled. I did not care about Corruption because that was bad luck. Don't want to punish a player for it. So i never asked. But that is that great choice that will create nothing but bad air for everyone.

[rrayy]

Skill pays the bills. Adding pointless ass grinds to the game to make the guy who plays only lfr,heroic dungeons, and world quests feel superior because he grinded out a pointless currency that only acts as a weird time spent gate keeping mechanic is actively harming the game.

It doesn't harm anything other than your ongoing need to be a special snowflake.