mythic+ would be much more enjoyable if...

[Frolk]

people

- would stop doing 5 second pull timer before boss
- would stop doing 3 second pull timer before pillar
- would stop leaving after 1 death or they are not used to the route or when the tank makes a different play.
- would finally learn the basic dungeon mechanics, even with 3k+
- would stop eating / drinking for the whole 30 sec duration
- would discuss tactics before the dungeon starts and not during, so fails can happen
- would stop telling me (just because I'm class XYZ I have to do that because it was always like that). example: Group stands still for 10 seconds. I reply with "?" and the whole group: (yEaH mAn eVeRyOnE wAiTinG fOr yOu tO dO yOur jOb).

I just wanted to share my experience with you, what I experience every day in the mythic+ dungeons. Am I the only one who has such problems? I only play in pugs because I can't find a fixed group and I can't find one at the moment. What I do is voluntary, but I still have fun doing it. I just think that even in PUGs you can play more successfully if certain things are turned off.

All of these issues will be solved if u did em with friends/guild group.

For all the runs ive done in M+ since it came, i never have these issues, but then again i rarely pugged.
Join some semi-decent guild and do runs with them whenever your online, do urself that favor and improve the quality of gameplay u experience every day.

[Tojara]

I mean, not all pugs are the same, so your experience is going to vary greatly.

If I had to make a wager, I'd guess that most people who pug M+ (especially ones over 15) are solely doing it to push io scores up and meet people along the way. Eventually this pool of people disappear for those exact reasons because they work their way into communities or find people they like playing with along the way. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a lot of the things you listed there, especially if nobody is using voice.

You aren't going to push super high keys in pugs and while the majority of what I do is carries, the same thing applies. Consistency. People jumping into pillars before tanks is just a great way to instantly die and potentially cause far more wasted time than up to 4 individual 3 second pull timers over the course of a dungeon. Obviously there are weak auras that tanks can use that announces as well, but fretting over 3-12 seconds is pretty nit picky. If that amount of time is causing issues, there are likely major issues present with the group that manifested throughout the entire dungeon.

I think you're focusing on too many little things. These things might make sense is an organized group that plays together all the time, but you aren't doing these things at all. Your timer ones in the context of a pug are a little extreme, the rest are fairly reasonable. Organizing before the run literally solves all of the issues you have.

To me it's not really surprising that people who have high io scores can be completely oblivious to how dungeons work. Lots of people only really push keys on the 2-3 weeks that are extremely easy, and neglect to even touch keys that are a touch up on difficulty. I can understand not wanting to push keys on the truly cancerous weeks, but the majority of the player base pushing keys just take the path of least resistance. As such there is a large influx of players (namely DPS, keep in mind this also has something to do with 3 of them existing in each key) who are simply damage monkeys with little mechanical prowess, which works well in a lot of keys, but don't count on them to think outside of the box if something goes slightly wrong (which happens all the time). Simply put, just because you're in the 2500-3500 (or whatever) range, doesn't mean that person is an absolute god. Some take directions well and can pump throughput (healing/DPS), but are literally carried by people who truly know how and why dungeons are run a certain way.

My only real pet peeves in dungeons (unless you know you're pretty far ahead, or it's the last boss and you just want to ensure the kill), is people sitting for 10 seconds for food buff. The 10 seconds you're sitting there getting 90 secondary stats (potentially multiple times) is never going to outweigh the 10 seconds you could've been actually in the pull. On the healer front, it's healers who can't get the rhythm between drinking and healing the group properly (harder to do in a pug, but most healers should figure this out fairly quickly into a run). As such they're constantly out of mana, when they could be drinking to full or nearly full while the group engages another pack. Lastly the biggest thing is people just holding CDs for bosses and neglecting to use them on trash at all. Passable if completely unfamiliar with a group and in a pug, but you occasionally run into people with 3 minute CDs knowing there's 10 minutes between a boss (on average) and the amount of times they use that CD is 0 between bosses.

[reanimatez]

The only issues I have with M+ are Raider.IO and people being able to leave groups without penalty for really petty reasons.

[Garymorilix]

Okay, here is what I can suggest (as a main tank):

You post your Method Dungeon Tools route 3 times in party chat before the key is even put in.
95% of the time people will at least look at it and be like "okay, tank has at least a plan of what to do", better players will plan CD's around it.
If you are not in a group that requires such a route to be posted you are doing too low a key to even bring up this discussion.

I can mostly tell the difference between having a group that needs their hands to be held and one that just knows their shit.
Mostly I don't do pull timers for this reason, unless I want something specific.
If your group is retarded you can pulltime literally anything and they'll love it. Gotta know people.

I always tell people BEFORE going into the obelisk to "just run" if I am to make a bigger skip. That way even if they fail to remember the route I posted earlier they woN't just die in place as soon as they enter.

Everything else, like dungeon mechanics and boss mechanics and affixes are personal responsiblity. No-one can manage those for other people.

[Loveliest]

Leaving is pug mentality. It's odd, I know. Since I don't pug, I had a very hard time trying to fit in one specific dps in our groups. He was used to leaving when the key seemed like not being done on time, so he was whining to just drop it down a level and try again. It's, you know, when you pug, you don't want to have failed keys for some reason. Also, most puggers are there to push their score - if it looks like it will fail, they'll just leave because they're not in there for the gear, not in there for the weekly, purely for score.

Pull timer on boss is OK, 3s is enough. Pull timer on pillar is not needed, agree.

That thing with the class... well... some classes get taken only for what they can do. For example, if you get taken to Told Dagor as a rogue, you better know how to open those doors and get the buffs. Or how to do a second pillar activation in Freehold and stuff like that. If you're there to be just as useless as a dk or lock (no offense), then you're not being fair to the team. You're there specifically for what you can do.

[exsanguinate]

Link your armory. I'm no god but all of the things you described besides the trash eating for 30 seconds is a bit frightening.

Nah. I don't want to be associated with this. No one's gonna take me away after this.

I'm playing around 2900 rio.

The groups I play in usually consist of very different scores (for whatever reason). I have played with people above 3k who did exactly what I described in my main topic. I do not make jokes. It's not always the case, of course, and many of them don't occur all at once, but always more often than you'd think if you play really many keys a day.

I find that some players also build groups too different and unbalanced, sometimes score differences of over 500, what in most cases will show expecting results. But I'm not the guy who leaves a group when someone is 2400~ (500 score below me). Even when the lead is above 3k.

[angrydave]

I'll fucking tell you what back in my day real men did Heroic Dungeons and that was hard. You kids these days have it so easy because you're undisciplined from a young age and cry like fucking babies for whatever in God's bollocks name you want. I bet you want Mythic- next. Twat.

-angrydave

[Flower Milk]

M+ would 100% be more enjoyable to me if it was just challenging dungeon content that scaled but didn't have a timer. The timer completely ruins any possible enjoyment of it for me.

[Trend]

M+ would 100% be more enjoyable to me if it was just challenging dungeon content that scaled but didn't have a timer. The timer completely ruins any possible enjoyment of it for me.

The timer is the challenge, so it would not make any sense not to have a timer. Good thing there is other content for you to enjoy.

[Maldarious]

The timer is the challenge, so it would not make any sense not to have a timer. Good thing there is other content for you to enjoy.

No the timer isn't the challenge and shouldn't be the only metric to measure success. Use a timer to skip a key as you advance sure but the challenge should be completing the dungeon before your group falls apart. Torghast has it right. Take as long as you want but die too often on a level you run the risk of being kicked out. That I like.

[ID811717]

My mistake, probably should have explained this better. There are groups where after a few pulls you can see how the DPS or the general progress will be. I usually ask the tank to leave out the pulltimer and to pull faster if possible. You can still prepot, it's not that difficult.

Even if the time is already extremely short, there are people (of course push groups, not weekly) who do a 5 second pulltimer when there are 2 minutes remaining or generally short time left.

It has ripped so many keys apart it is just annoying and yet people wondering and complaining when the time runs out. I have learned that 5 seconds or 20 seconds remaining time can save alot.

I guess the problem is that you're stuck in this weird 19-21 key range.
Anything higher and your pug will likely join discord voice, and do (3 second) pull timers on voice. But even if the tank did no pull timer (on voice or in game), they are still projecting their next actions good enough that you can consistently pre-pot without explicit warning.
Anything lower and you get very new or unpredictable tanks that sometimes stand AFK 4 sec and then unexpectedly pull the boss out of nowhere. It's hard to read those tanks and pre-pot without a timer, because they are so unpredictable. These tanks need to be forced to do pull-timers.

The lack of base knowledge of dungeon boss mechanics is still super common too, 1 and a half year into BFA.. a frustrating amount of times we had to wipe to stuff like people still not switching to Bobby when he's stunning somebody for 10 seconds on 2nd boss of Toldagor, or the bombs on pyrolady boss there aswell, just to name a couple. How people make it to 2.5-3k scores whilst still not knowing many mythic+0 dungeon mechanics is light years beyond me.

Wipes on pyrolady are all about communication issues, that has little to do with not knowing tactics. Rather, people know too many different tactics, and everyone has a strong preference for that one "correct" way to play it. So 5 people each try to do something entirely different, and what you get is - fiesta.

But anyone using above a 3s timer for boss pulls; that's way too long and you're wasting time. That's a solid 6s+ loss on the dungeon for practically nothing. Unless you have a spec/class in your group that will do a ton of extra DPS for the setup (no, Fire Mages pre-pull Pyro doesn't count) that makes it worth the extra seconds, you should just do 3s timers to save time. The majority of randos just run in though when they (hopefully) see the healer's mana above ~70%.

Even 5 sec timer is fine, if you don't spent these second standing around AFK. If a tank does \pull 5 while still running upstairs to the last AD boss, that's fine. If a tank starts the pull timer (mind you, even \pull 20 for mage) while standing in front of Priestess Alun'za in Atal'Dazar and killing off a bunch of trash mobs each at 20% health remaining - that's perfect.

To me it's not really surprising that people who have high io scores can be completely oblivious to how dungeons work. Lots of people only really push keys on the 2-3 weeks that are extremely easy, and neglect to even touch keys that are a touch up on difficulty.

Considering the number of people who "hate pugging", I'm convinced the real reason for this is complacency, not incompetence. By that, I mean people are so used to play in a premade group that they become oblivious to mechanics that are reliably handled by other people in their premade. Then once in many weeks they decide to try out pugging, and discover all these mechanics still exist. I explained this in more details in one of my recent posts:

If you are ambitious and not afraid to put yourself out there (to be judged by others), you will go ahead and obsessively use any chance to pug keys. It's not necessarily a healthy mindset from a real-life perspective, but if you look at people climbing the rating (hundreds of raider.io points per day) - they often have this mindset. You might spend all evening pushing keys with your group of friends, but when they go sleep - you will go and pug several more keys on your own. That also forces you to be more focused and learn new things. Just like you said in the following:

In a group of friends you always end up having some mechanics that are always handled by your friends, and you can just rely that they will reliably do their role. In a random pug, you will be forced to remember those mechanics exist and be ready to handle them yourself. For example: as a healer in a premade I have 100% trust that my group will disrupt Underrot's Fetid Maggot frontal breath or call out for backup. I can focus my attention on other things unless I'm called on. In a full pug, even when using discord voice, you generally don't have the luxury of turning your brain off in a similar way -- everyone is expected to beware of all mechanics and proactively chime in if necessary.

On the other side of the spectrum are people who only play with their fixed group of friends and prefer to passionately hate pugging. Most often these people are complacent and won't be able to get out of their rating/skill plateau. (Different people plateau at different key levels... Some get stuck at 1k and some get stuck at 4k.)

I have personally been a part of either group throughout the years (obsessed min-maxer vs. complacent plateau inhabitant). You naturally have seasons where you're so busy irl that you're happy to just play any challenging content and share your plateau with similarly busy friends, by doing the M+ alternative to raid-logging behavior. And sometimes you have free time and can afford to get obsessed with pushing as high as you can. The latter basically requires you to go out and pug a lot, and really keeps you on your toes.

Leaving is pug mentality. It's odd, I know. Since I don't pug, I had a very hard time trying to fit in one specific dps in our groups. He was used to leaving when the key seemed like not being done on time, so he was whining to just drop it down a level and try again. It's, you know, when you pug, you don't want to have failed keys for some reason. Also, most puggers are there to push their score - if it looks like it will fail, they'll just leave because they're not in there for the gear, not in there for the weekly, purely for score.

I'm not sure I agree with your generalization.

In Legion I pugged to 4.5-4.7k score on my own in pugs, and then formed a pre-made group with people I met and added to friend list along the way. One of the memorable moments for me was when we started getting +25 keys for dungeons where most of us have only timed +22 or +23 before. We had some arguments for a while when we went into a +25 and fucked it up. Then half of us wanted to just complete the +25 out of time because it would give us a good score increase, and the other half did not care about getting score from depleted keys - and insisted on lowering the key on +24 and trying to time again... If that fails, then lower to +23...+22... however many times we needed to time the key. Because the main value is in learning to reliably time the keys, not in hoarding score from depleted runs. Eventually all of us adapted the latter mindset - all that matters are the timed keys, and the only reason to complete a fucked up timer is either to get a high weekly key, or if the particular dungeon+affix combo is just unplayable on that week and you'd rather just get any other dungeon out of it than attempt it again at one key level lower.

So I would say it's actually the mentality of premade groups (but it should be frowned upon in a pug, unless everyone agrees to ditch the key together - which is not unusual anyway).

[Flower Milk]

The timer is the challenge, so it would not make any sense not to have a timer. Good thing there is other content for you to enjoy.

What other challenging dungeon content without a timer exists? Please point me in that direction. Normal/heroic dungeons might as well not even exist at this point unless you play at the start of an expansion. You get in one nowadays and it's just one person soloing it while you try to keep up. That's not a dungeon lol.

[tehealadin]

Can anyone explain to me before starting the key what the point of the 10 second pull timer is? Is it for addons? It isn't jumping out at me, and I am always afraid to ask incase it comes off as being bitchy, it isn't meant as a "idiot, y u do that?!".

[Wysmark]

Im not sure Ive properly seen/experienced the dungeons yet . Heroic and Mythic 0 is blazed through because of easymode and the higher dungeons are blazed through due to timer.

For me the most enjoyable dungeons ever was Magister’s Terrace, specifically the Delrissa fight requiring interrupts, pre-CC and ideally keeping up CC during the fight. Okay so classes without CC was nearly banned from going, that was fights where you actually used all the abilities your class had.

I personally enjoyed those more than current mythics where a crying child or DC just ruins the run for everyone

[Mardux]

There was a way to do it without a time constraint.

There is. It's called ignore the timer.

- - - Updated - - -

- Tanks would stop being passive aggressive knobs with bloated egos

Feel free to roll a tank. Bo one is stopping you.

You're also more than welcome to not pretend everything is the tanks fault. Though that might be a bit more challenging.

[Revamp Man]

people

- would stop doing 5 second pull timer before boss
- would stop doing 3 second pull timer before pillar
- would stop leaving after 1 death or they are not used to the route or when the tank makes a different play.
- would finally learn the basic dungeon mechanics, even with 3k+
- would stop eating / drinking for the whole 30 sec duration
- would discuss tactics before the dungeon starts and not during, so fails can happen
- would stop telling me (just because I'm class XYZ I have to do that because it was always like that). example: Group stands still for 10 seconds. I reply with "?" and the whole group: (yEaH mAn eVeRyOnE wAiTinG fOr yOu tO dO yOur jOb).

I just wanted to share my experience with you, what I experience every day in the mythic+ dungeons. Am I the only one who has such problems? I only play in pugs because I can't find a fixed group and I can't find one at the moment. What I do is voluntary, but I still have fun doing it. I just think that even in PUGs you can play more successfully if certain things are turned off.

The timers are normally for potions

- - - Updated - - -

Can anyone explain to me before starting the key what the point of the 10 second pull timer is? Is it for addons? It isn't jumping out at me, and I am always afraid to ask incase it comes off as being bitchy, it isn't meant as a "idiot, y u do that?!".

Double check gear and talents and all that stuff

[antelope591]

These 3 points I fully agree with and really do bother me about people in M+. The leaving keys for almost no reason part is in particular a cancer in Mythic+. Just the other day for example, start of Freehold 19, we agree to do first 3 packs with BL, and we do a pull timer, DH pre pops his meta and then after the countdown ended, he fel rushes in less than a second after tank went in and barely had a chance to gain aggro---> gets one shot by an enforcer--> immediately leaves because he lost both BL and his pre meta.. Key ruined, because one idiot lost 1 cd and BL due to his OWN fucking mistake.

The lack of base knowledge of dungeon boss mechanics is still super common too, 1 and a half year into BFA.. a frustrating amount of times we had to wipe to stuff like people still not switching to Bobby when he's stunning somebody for 10 seconds on 2nd boss of Toldagor, or the bombs on pyrolady boss there aswell, just to name a couple. How people make it to 2.5-3k scores whilst still not knowing many mythic+0 dungeon mechanics is light years beyond me.

Funny I've seen a DH leave because his opening meta was "ruined" in a similar manner too. Just DH things I guess.

[Marrilaife]

Feel free to roll a tank. Bo one is stopping you.

You're also more than welcome to not pretend everything is the tanks fault. Though that might be a bit more challenging.

Agreed, the amount of bullying and blame shifting towards tanks in pugs is so big that the only people who can stomach it and continue pugging as a tank are those who just don't give a fuck what people think about them / tell them.

The paradox of the pugging community is first they whine there are no tanks, then decline the tanks that apply because not enough experience / gear / score, then when they find one that satisfies them they try to backseat drive him (even though he probably has 100x more experience at tanking than all the other people who never tanked, especially after he passed all the strict screening), and then when the tank tells them stfu and just do your job they like "whoa this tank is such a cuntbag".

Also about the OP, who the heck has a problem with pull timers? Especially short ones like 3-5 seconds? On the other hand without pull timers there's always someone who will whine he didn't manage to pre-meta before keystone started, didn't pre-font or pre-pot before the boss, healer didn't manage to drink for mana and whatnot.

[Niwes]

hmm, ok. a lot of ops text sound strange to me. i dont even start from there.

the only thing i REALLY asked for myself, was:

you are going PUG m+ (no clue what key levels) and have a problem with a 5s boss timer. there are maybe 4-5 bosses max, so we talking about 20-25 seconds. you run with pugs and complain about 20 seconds ? ok.

no clue...

[Lubefist]

There is. It's called ignore the timer.

- - - Updated - - -



Feel free to roll a tank. Bo one is stopping you.

You're also more than welcome to not pretend everything is the tanks fault. Though that might be a bit more challenging.

I play 50/50 as tank and as a dps, stop assuming shit.

Since you apparently lack in comprehending written word I'll try to dumb it down for you. I never said that "everything is tanks fault" or even anything along those lines. It's just painfully common that your average pug tank is so fucking full of himself/herself and they act like they are a handjob from god, gracing your grp with their presence, constantly threatening to leave as if they are totally irreplaceable and by rolling a tank spec they ascended to a higher state of gaming.

Now go lick your bruised ego to a corner kid.
Infracted