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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    Honestly at this point, either blind faith or naivete. It was not to long ago when a good deal of the official dk forums was littered with "We want 2H frost back", the myriad of other issues facing frost- nah screw that I want to look like Arthas. Ok lets say blizz brings 2h frost back, how are they going to balance it against dw and uh- "Nah screw that I want to look like Arthas" so I mean here we are we can look like Arthas again... As others have said earlier my fear is blizz after bringing 2h frost back will do nothing else for frost before Shadowlands launches because "we have done enough" or it is to hard/ time consuming to balance 2h frost and dw frost. I want to, I really want to believe that Blizz will do a better job managing 2h frost and DW, that being said a great deal of skepticism is definitely valid. The whole "don't worry it's only alpha/beta" is a line that people will repeatedly parrot to defend blizz's mishaps. I am hoping that is not the case this time, I am hoping blizz can balance 2h and dw frost- we will see.
    If they touch frost all they will do instead of fixing frost flaws, making it better and balanced against other classes will be just making 2hand not be complete shit. Overall you will get a shit spec that cant compete. GJ you did it!!
    Last edited by Kendros; 2020-05-06 at 11:43 PM.

  2. #242
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Same dude. Hope the "YAY WE DID IT 2H BACK!!!" was worth it. But again all they wanted was the aesthetics wasnt it?
    No, this is a strawman. A very common reason for wanting it to return was the playstyle, particularly the one that existed in MoP and WoD when 2h and DW felt very different. Any time 2h was discussed, people brought up 2h obliterates. That's more than aesthetic.

    If it's a major asspain for PvE players then I don't think many would upset if the playstyle returned via a PvP talent. I would wager the majority of 2h players back then played it for PvP.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    If it's a major asspain for PvE players then I don't think many would upset if the playstyle returned via a PvP talent. I would wager the majority of 2h players back then played it for PvP.
    Lol yeah I bet they did, I remember when 2h oblit burst cheese got frost nerfed into oblivion in cata. In fact the the 'masterfrost' mastery stacking DW build first started taking hold because oblit got nerfed so hard it was more worth it to spam HB then even use oblit in raids.

    Good times.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    No, this is a strawman. A very common reason for wanting it to return was the playstyle, particularly the one that existed in MoP and WoD when 2h and DW felt very different. Any time 2h was discussed, people brought up 2h obliterates. That's more than aesthetic.

    If it's a major asspain for PvE players then I don't think many would upset if the playstyle returned via a PvP talent. I would wager the majority of 2h players back then played it for PvP.
    Not true most ppl wanted it cause they wanted to role play as arthas and carry a big 2hander for looks and some others wanted harder hitting oblits which is stupid since skills were changed to be ap based and not weapon based, they hit pretty much the same no matter the weapon. There are no viable way of making 2 different playstyles without making the whole spec shit or one so far ahead than the other that turns the otehr irrelevant like was seen in the past. But hey you got your looks, good job!
    Last edited by Kendros; 2020-05-06 at 11:48 PM.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Not true most ppl wanted it cause they wanted to role play as arthas and carry a big 2hander for looks and some others wanted harder hitting oblits which is stupid since skills were changed to be ap based and not weapon based, they hit pretty much the same no matter the weapon. There are no viable way of making 2 different playstyles without making the whole spec shit or one so far ahead than the other that turns the otehr irrelevant like was seen in the past. But hey you got your looks, good job!
    From what I saw in the 2h threads on the official forums, people who wanted it back for the playstyle got more support than those who suggested a transmog option. The first thing people tested when they got to play 2h on alpha was if obliterate hit harder. It should be obvious that this is a core part of why people missed 2h.

    I'm pretty sure I've told you this before but the main reason obliterate hit harder in MoP and WoD was might of the frozen wastes and not weapon damage. A percent increase is a percent increase; it doesn't matter what the attack scales off of at that point.

    You totally skimmed over what I said about PvP. Did you know that destro locks have a PvP talent which massively increases chaos bolt damage but no longer allows it to be cleaved with havoc? It's a double edged sword. There's no reason why something similar couldn't be implemented for frost and obliterate. This would in no way affect your dragonslaying. Stop being so upset and think logically for a moment.
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2020-05-07 at 05:06 AM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    From what I saw in the 2h threads on the official forums, people who wanted it back for the playstyle got more support than those who suggested a transmog option. The first thing people tested when they got to play 2h on alpha was if obliterate hit harder. It should be obvious that this is a core part of why people missed 2h.

    I'm pretty sure I've told you this before but the main reason obliterate hit harder in MoP and WoD was might of the frozen wastes and not weapon damage. A percent increase is a percent increase; it doesn't matter what the attack scales off of at that point.

    You totally skimmed over what I said about PvP. Did you know that destro locks have a PvP talent which massively increases chaos bolt damage but no longer allows it to be cleaved with havoc? It's a double edged sword. There's no reason why something similar couldn't be implemented for frost and obliterate. This would in no way affect your dragonslaying. Stop being so upset and think logically for a moment.
    Nah most of those ppl wanted to carry a big 2 hander and they were literally screaming "IDC ABOUT BALANCE I JUST WANT O BE ARTHAS", even saw a good amount of lazy fuckers that didnt want to farm for 2 one handers.
    Yes true MofFW was not the reason 2hander was the pvp option. 2 hander naturaly hit harder on all melee abilities because weapon damage was in the equation and not just for frost any class that could wield both kind of weapons the two hander was the go to for pvp, because in pvp bursty>dps, and with a 2hander you would have less miss hits. And pvp is irrelevant, once that was removed to be one weapon only and you didnt have a second option to bother with was just a matter of balancing that one weapon spec for pvp instead of 2 subspecs leaving only "looks" any real reason for it to come back.
    Overall 2 hander frost was garbage for the majority of its existence pve wise no real reason for it to come back with any kind of "gameplay" instead of "BUT MAH ROLE PLAY".
    Last edited by Kendros; 2020-05-07 at 08:59 AM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Lol yeah I bet they did, I remember when 2h oblit burst cheese got frost nerfed into oblivion in cata. In fact the the 'masterfrost' mastery stacking DW build first started taking hold because oblit got nerfed so hard it was more worth it to spam HB then even use oblit in raids.

    Good times.
    Man, Blizzard HATED the Masterfrost build.
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  8. #248
    I mean they did such a good job of balancing just dw and keeping it relevant... Don't think anyone expects more than that. It doesn't scale well just like ww.
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Nah most of those ppl wanted to carry a big 2 hander and they were literally screaming "IDC ABOUT BALANCE I JUST WANT O BE ARTHAS".
    Yes true but 2 hander naturaly hit harder on all melee abilities cause weapon damage was in the equation and not just for frost any class that could wield both kind of weapons the two hander was the go to for pvp , because in pvp bursty>dps, and with a 2hander you would have less miss hits. And pvp is irrelevant, once that was removed to be one weapon only and you didnt have a second option was just a matter of balancing that one spec or "playstyle" if you will for pvp instead of 2 subspecs.
    Overall 2 hander frost was garbage for the majority of its existence.
    If PvP is irrelevant then so is raiding



    Just let me have a PvP talent (which isn't available in any sort of instanced PvE, mind you) and you won't have to worry about the scary arthas cosplayers anymore.

    Also balance =/= playstyle.
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2020-05-07 at 08:12 AM.

  10. #250
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    I think that adjusting proc rates depending on weapon setup could help a lot (or let it scale with swing timer (faster procrate with slowe swings)

    And maybe let 2h have a special rune with rune of the fallen crusader + razorice or two enchants.

    Problem is, I don't expect blizz to be able to scale it good enough within one xpac, so it will most likely be pretty bad late in the xpac
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  11. #251
    So who's excited for weapon shifting macros to line hysteria up with the BoS window? That's not degenerate gameplay at all.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    So who's excited for weapon shifting macros to line hysteria up with the BoS window? That's not degenerate gameplay at all.
    It's nothing that hasn't happened before already. Combat rogues used to do it all the time prior to Legion. Honestly, the gains would be minimal, and the trouble of switching weapons and losing a global might not be worth it. Blizzard will find a way to quell that quickly if it becomes a thing in any case.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    If PvP is irrelevant then so is raiding



    Just let me have a PvP talent (which isn't available in any sort of instanced PvE, mind you) and you won't have to worry about the scary arthas cosplayers anymore.

    Also balance =/= playstyle.
    I guess I must be the only one who was enjoying the 2H playstyle for what it was in both PvE and PvP then. I appreciate it's a completely different discussion, but since legion every time I played a character in PvE in retail I felt I am back levelling because my characters were incomplete due to the PvP talents. As such, it would be a non-starter for me if the 2H playstyle is only available in PvP, even though I understand it is better than nothing.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    I guess I must be the only one who was enjoying the 2H playstyle for what it was in both PvE and PvP then. I appreciate it's a completely different discussion, but since legion every time I played a character in PvE in retail I felt I am back levelling because my characters were incomplete due to the PvP talents. As such, it would be a non-starter for me if the 2H playstyle is only available in PvP, even though I understand it is better than nothing.
    No you're not the only one. After they took away blood dps, I went frost and only played 2H until Legion when I decided to just switch to ret.

    Yes, it was not exactly desirable spec, but I enjoyed it and in the tier of content I was doing normal/heroic and just some battlegrounds, I've seen people with bis gear doing worse than a half blind tank (true story), not defending a "bad" spec, but just thinking...

    Outside of visual gimping, making frost DK's fight with 2 bluish toothpicks, they changed how spec worked with breath especially and ever since launch of Wrath DK's lost more than gained and I can't see how gaining back a way people liked to play is making some infuriated here.
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Now instead of being pissed off at four people at a time, I can be pissed off at TWENTY FOUR people at a time. That's called efficiency, my little enchiladas.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    I guess I must be the only one who was enjoying the 2H playstyle for what it was in both PvE and PvP then. I appreciate it's a completely different discussion, but since legion every time I played a character in PvE in retail I felt I am back levelling because my characters were incomplete due to the PvP talents. As such, it would be a non-starter for me if the 2H playstyle is only available in PvP, even though I understand it is better than nothing.
    I bring it up in nearly every DK thread that talks about previous versions being better, but with so many stats being removed and with talents being completely movable between specs, there's no reason not to allow complete freedom between DW/2H and tank/DPS for each.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascius View Post
    No you're not the only one. After they took away blood dps, I went frost and only played 2H until Legion when I decided to just switch to ret.

    Yes, it was not exactly desirable spec, but I enjoyed it and in the tier of content I was doing normal/heroic and just some battlegrounds, I've seen people with bis gear doing worse than a half blind tank (true story), not defending a "bad" spec, but just thinking...

    Outside of visual gimping, making frost DK's fight with 2 bluish toothpicks, they changed how spec worked with breath especially and ever since launch of Wrath DK's lost more than gained and I can't see how gaining back a way people liked to play is making some infuriated here.
    I don't really think it's people being infuriated, but rather why waste time on bringing back 2h frost when frost in generally is not in the greatest spot i.e... frost has core issues, why not fix those issues instead of bringing back 2h frost. Now obviously it is still very, very early alpha and I am confident at some point we will see some attempt in balancing 2h frost and dw, whether that is bringing back might of the frozen waste, reworking how killing machine works etc... something, blizz will do something (I hope). But until that "something" is done, bringing back 2h (at least in its current state) is a joke unless we brought back 2h frost just only for "I can look like Arthas".

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascius View Post
    Outside of visual gimping, making frost DK's fight with 2 bluish toothpicks, they changed how spec worked with breath especially and ever since launch of Wrath DK's lost more than gained and I can't see how gaining back a way people liked to play is making some infuriated here.
    No one is infuriated that others are happy. That's just bullshit strawmanning.

    People are, however, concerned, if not annoyed, that Blizzard is going back to a design that has a horrible track record, has cascading problems for the whole spec (possibly class if they still adhere to the balancing within the class idea), and as a base design is incredibly complicated, and frankly unrealistic. The idea of sub-specs was rightly dropped, because it just doesn't work trying to get two playstyles/priorities/designs out of one set of abilities without one overshadowing the other, scaling being a nightmare to balance each patch due to differences, etc; and those just the general design issues, not mentioning some of our specific spec issues like Razorice, or Killing Machine. It just doesn't work. We're watching Blizzard set themselves up to fail, and Frost is going to go down with that failure. That is what people are infuriated about.

    But by all means, continue to play the victim that you are the ones under attack while still taking jabs at dual-wield, because you couldn't even make this post without making that toothpick dig.

  18. #258
    I think they are going to make all rune forges unique and or allow 2 of them on a 2hander or make them weapon imbue buffs that are temporary like shaman have and allow 2 to be active. Not many other ways around it within the confines of their current design systems.
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  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I think they are going to make all rune forges unique and or allow 2 of them on a 2hander or make them weapon imbue buffs that are temporary like shaman have and allow 2 to be active. Not many other ways around it within the confines of their current design systems.
    I think that they could also reduce each runeforge's potency by half on one-handed weapons, though personally I would prefer being able to apply two separate enchants on a 2-hand. Other than solving the 2h vs DW runeforge problem, this would be a nice power customization addition considering that we could mix and match and play around with all of these new runeforges (instead of just picking FC ^^).

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Nayami View Post
    I think that they could also reduce each runeforge's potency by half on one-handed weapons, though personally I would prefer being able to apply two separate enchants on a 2-hand. Other than solving the 2h vs DW runeforge problem, this would be a nice power customization addition considering that we could mix and match and play around with all of these new runeforges (instead of just picking FC ^^).
    The leech one is going to be sweet.
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