Aftermath of the Fourth War

[Super Dickmann]

That's because both the position and the oath was beyond stupid. In a society built on everyone being equal, it only breeds authoritarianism if there's a supreme leader who's more equal than anyone else. In addition, it also created a system of dual loyalty where if people agreed with their faction leader and disagreed with the Warchief they were forced to commit treason to their race in order to fulfill the oath. Nothing about that says "equal" to me. It does scream "AUTHORITANISM!!" instead and it gave the perfect breeding ground for Garrosh and Sylvanas to become despotic leaders.

The Horde was never based around equality, what are you even on about?

[Mehrunes]

Ah, yes. I confused it with the other crocodile tear nothingburger Alliance atrocity. Mea culpa.

Funny how Alliance posters join Blizzard in brushing Alliance wrong-doing under the carpet because of arbitrary nonsense like "it's not significant enough in my eyes" only to then cry about how bland and passive they are. If you didn't deliberately ignore Alliance's actions because they are "nothingburgers" your reasons for crying would magically dissipate. Just saying.

That's because both the position and the oath was beyond stupid. In a society built on everyone being equal, it only breeds authoritarianism if there's a supreme leader who's more equal than anyone else. In addition, it also created a system of dual loyalty where if people agreed with their faction leader and disagreed with the Warchief they were forced to commit treason to their race in order to fulfill the oath. Nothing about that says "equal" to me. It does scream "AUTHORITANISM!!" instead and it gave the perfect breeding ground for Garrosh and Sylvanas to become despotic leaders.

That could have something to do with the fact that your claim that Horde was ever built upon everyone being equal is something you made up by twisting Thrall's single line of on-click text about how every member of the Horde is equal in his eyes. Putting aside the Blood Oath the existence of Warchiefs alone should be an indication on how you're wrong. The Horde has never been anything but authoritarian so no wonder its key legal concept like the Blood Oath breeds authoritarianism. The ending of your post is you accidentally stumbling into the way things actually are. As for the bit about dual loyalty, that's just basics of how hierarchical, yet centralized systems work (not only in context of nations).

[Nerovar]

Funny how Alliance posters join Blizzard in brushing Alliance wrong-doing under the carpet because of arbitrary nonsense like "it's not significant enough in my eyes" only to then cry about how bland and passive they are. If you didn't deliberately ignore Alliance's actions because they are "nothingburgers" your reasons for crying would magically dissipate. Just saying.

We're talking about something that happened pre-classic so it doesn't really tell us much about the Alliance as it exists now and the "traits" these events indicated simply don't exist anymore and it's certainly not indicative of current day Alliance leadership. The Alliance is not racist, imperialist etc. and hasn't been any of that in a long time (the Explorer's League that was repsonsible for these actions is not even strictly an Alliance faction anymore). We don't need to look as far back as classic to find Horde atrocities that make this example of colonization look like a picnic in comparison. This is why it's highly disingenuous to bring this shit up in a conversation about the Fourth War.

[valax]

Some are arguing that the Alliance won the Fourth War. However I can’t really see or get the feeling that they actually won:

Territories and civilizations the Alliance lost since Argus:
- Ashenvale: In the aftermath of the Garrosh war Ashenvale was given to the nightelves but the Horde conquered it in the War of Thorns.
- Teldrassil: Nothing but ashes.

Territories and civilizations the Alliance gained since Argus:
- Stromgarde and Arathi Highlands, though Stromgarde wasn’t really horde after Galen broke off the Forsaken.
- Kul Tiras
- Mechagon probably, though arguably.

Other stuff the Alliance “gained” since Argus:
- The Vindicaar wasn’t really gained, since it was crafted by the MU Draenei. In fact that’s all the Draenei as a whole have been working towards ever since they stranded on Azeroth.
- Telogrus Rift: while technically it was a gain, it has literally no value. It’s just a void infested rock with no natural resources.


Territories and civilizations the Horde lost since Argus:
- Undercity, while the civilization was evacuated and it wasn’t really taken by the Alliance.

Territories and civilizations the Horde gained since Argus:
- Ashenvale: No indication that it went back to the nightelves.
- Suramar: The zone and the city.
- High Mountain and Thunder Totem.
- Zandalar, and while the Alliance did kill the king, the population and zones stays Horde.


In the end the Horde only lost the structure of Undercity, not even its population while the Alliance lost so much more and didn’t get anything to really make it up for. Also the Horde didn’t get any reparations or have to make up for what they did. Or did I miss something? Because it barely feels like a win.

Sylvanas horde is no more , that's the alliance win. You don't have to get more territories to win a war

[Soon-TM]

Sylvanas horde is no more , that's the alliance win. You don't have to get more territories to win a war

Especially not when your former enemy is now ruled by a bunch of identical, equally interchangeable Anduin groupies.

[Quaade]

That could have something to do with the fact that your claim that Horde was ever built upon everyone being equal is something you made up by twisting Thrall's single line of on-click text about how every member of the Horde is equal in his eyes. Putting aside the Blood Oath the existence of Warchiefs alone should be an indication on how you're wrong. The Horde has never been anything but authoritarian so no wonder its key legal concept like the Blood Oath breeds authoritarianism. The ending of your post is you accidentally stumbling into the way things actually are. As for the bit about dual loyalty, that's just basics of how hierarchical, yet centralized systems work (not only in context of nations).

Same as above, do you also think that the Horde is more democratic than the Allia once? If so that's a cognitive dissonance as you can only have a democracy if people are somewhat equal. Else you have something that's fascistic in nature.

And yes, the Blood Oath and the whole concept of Honour that the Horde has breeds authoritarianism. They attacked Brennendam, a city of civilians and you can find Horde NPC holding Alliance civilians by the throat and saying "your death will bring me honour."

Unquestioning loyalty will breed authoritarianism of a fascist nature because no one ever asks themselves. "are we the baddies?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

[Raisei]

Obviously it has nothing to do with that "new path" constituting of turning all Horde leaders into Alliance's ass-lickers more concerned about one human being resurrected than the well-being of their own races.

*sigh* We know Mehrunes, you hate the Alliance and everything that even edges to be close to their values makes you froth at the mouth. We know. Just find another game already, your hate is getting boring. Your Horde is dead anyway, isn't it?

Why are you demanding that Horde players should find a way to be interesting in a way that doesn't offend your sensibilities? You do realize they aren't the ones writing this goddamn story, right?

Ye, because it is weird that I am offended by a faction that wants to genocide mine every 2 expansions. I am so sorry for not supporting your plans of murdering every Alliance member. My sensibilities got in the way. Can you eeeeever forgive me?

Fabricated reason like incessant Alliance aggression? Alliance flat out declared the previous faction war because Varian simply couldn't contain his hate-boner for the green-skins, despite an ongoing zombie apocalypse. Even the fact that it's the Alliance that started said war is never addressed in the story, let alone their reasons for it or any of their actions throughout it. And you talk about no consequences...

Given Alliance striking first each and every time, they are not victims and it's the Horde that is the one striking back. Making your fantasies about direct threat to the existence of the Alliance ring rather hollow. Also, how about you at least try to separate the story of Warcraft from the real world before you go on a rant, hmm? Because I'd wager most people whose life circumstances let them devote time to an MMO are already living lives without a war in them. Just because other players don't play your faction (and given how you yourself constantly paint it as the most victimized victim in the history of victimization, why would they?) doesn't make them less civilized. Not to mention I didn't see @Mirn demanding any slaughtering of civilians. Also, your own demand for lack of war in this setting makes zero sense from the perspective of realism and immersion. And Orgrimmar hasn't been a bunch of mudhuds since Cataclysm.

Yes, yes. Heard that headcanon all before. You are becoming rather predictable, you know? Meanwhile the reasons why SYLVANAS started the war have been revealed month ago. Are you still ignoring that because it clashes with your Alliance hate or something?

Have you ever heard of subjectivity? Or did someone die and make you the king of what is fun and interesting?

1) My comment was pointing to exactly that. Just because some people SUBJECTIVELY can only accept dark evil figures as interesting characters does not mean that decent characters with moral struggles aren't interesting.
2) You of all people talking about subjectivity when you constantly, in every post, declare your hateful view of the Alliance as canon and decry everything else as fanfictions is really cracking me up.

[Varodoc]

Lol the Alliance won both warfronts and put an end to Sylvanas' evil regime, I'd say it's obvious who won the Fourth War.

[Thage]

Getting Arathi under control is no small potatoes for the Alliance. The Highlands are full of currently-unused farmlands left over from before Stromgarde fell to ruin, Stromgarde itself is a highly defensible keep that will make a good base of operations for securing the northern Eastern Kingdoms, and with Arathi secured the Thandol Span can be used for troop and supply transport as the Alliance has largely gotten the Wetlands under control (if Cataclysm questing is canon, at any rate, or continues to be a Schrodinger's storyline). This means the Alliance can field troops from Stromgarde and Gilneas both (if the mission tables are any indication, the Alliance has since reclaimed and secured Gilneas or at least made forays into doing so) in the event things heat up with the Horde again, putting them right on the front door to Forsaken territory in Silverpine and Hillsbrad, and a stone's throw from blood elf territory to the north.

I also don't see Ashenvale remaining under Horde control for long. The new council is very likely to cede Ashenvale to the night elves in an attempt to get Tyrande to chill the fuck out, especially since the Horde also lost Darkshore and those night elves following Tyrande remain on the warpath.

[Varodoc]

Getting Arathi under control is no small potatoes for the Alliance. The Highlands are full of currently-unused farmlands left over from before Stromgarde fell to ruin, Stromgarde itself is a highly defensible keep that will make a good base of operations for securing the northern Eastern Kingdoms, and with Arathi secured the Thandol Span can be used for troop and supply transport as the Alliance has largely gotten the Wetlands under control (if Cataclysm questing is canon, at any rate, or continues to be a Schrodinger's storyline). This means the Alliance can field troops from Stromgarde and Gilneas both (if the mission tables are any indication, the Alliance has since reclaimed and secured Gilneas or at least made forays into doing so) in the event things heat up with the Horde again, putting them right on the front door to Forsaken territory in Silverpine and Hillsbrad, and a stone's throw from blood elf territory to the north.

I also don't see Ashenvale remaining under Horde control for long. The new council is very likely to cede Ashenvale to the night elves in an attempt to get Tyrande to chill the fuck out, especially since the Horde also lost Darkshore and those night elves following Tyrande remain on the warpath.

Blizzard also said that Arathi was the key to controlling the northern EK and attacking Quel'thalas. With the victory in Arathi, the Alliance now has strategic supremacy in the EK.

Now all that's left to do is find a way to put Calia on the throne of Lordaeron and that fallen kingdom will be brought back into the fold. However Calia needs to wake the fuck up and do something.

[mysticx]

Sylvanas horde is no more , that's the alliance win. You don't have to get more territories to win a war

The horde is just fine (A few Sylvanas loyalists were weeded out, everybody else just stayed as they were), it’s just that when Sylvanas “REEEEEE!”’d out, they took the metaphorical ball and went home, the Alliance won absolutely nothing.

[Kumorii]

The horde is just fine (A few Sylvanas loyalists were weeded out, everybody else just stayed as they were), it’s just that when Sylvanas “REEEEEE!”’d out, they took the metaphorical ball and went home, the Alliance won absolutely nothing.

They won the war and now have allies in position of power within the horde. I would say that's a big win.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard also said that Arathi was the key to controlling the northern EK and attacking Quel'thalas. With the victory in Arathi, the Alliance now has strategic supremacy in the EK.

Now all that's left to do is find a way to put Calia on the throne of Lordaeron and that fallen kingdom will be brought back into the fold. However Calia needs to wake the fuck up and do something.

Last time I checked she is going to Loradaeron to help Voss re-establish the forsaken. She is already doing something. It will just unfold in shadowlands and take time.

[valax]

The horde is just fine (A few Sylvanas loyalists were weeded out, everybody else just stayed as they were), it’s just that when Sylvanas “REEEEEE!”’d out, they took the metaphorical ball and went home, the Alliance won absolutely nothing.

That's just the kind of victory you can expect in a mmo game with players on both sides, Siege of Orgrimmar docet. You can even go back into the lost territories by talking to zidormi so nothing is really lost.

[Purpleisbetter]

Just got back playing doing chain quests and stuff.

Wow, i hope 10.0 gives you the chance to play factionless because fk me this Horde is as sexy as doggos poo under your shoe.

[Grazrug]

The Horde is many things. But that council ain't it. Like Anduin said. It is about Baine, Thrall and "the others" it is shameful and speaks volume about the broken state of the Horde if "the others" aren't even mentioned by name when it comes to calling the shots. Sadly. Hope that Talanji rises up and cleans the house. Shadow's rising has a promising setup and I hope it goes somewhere good.

- - - Updated - - -

That's just the kind of victory you can expect in a mmo game with players on both sides, Siege of Orgrimmar docet. You can even go back into the lost territories by talking to zidormi so nothing is really lost.

Pretty much this. Teldrassil is still there kind of.

[Sagenod]

The Alliance as a whole doesn't profit by it though, especially not in peace times. Void elves are valuable in battle with their void portals and such. They only use the rift to increase these knowledge and skills. However the rift itself has nothing to offer:

There is no flora there and little fauna. We have to assume the void elves do have to eat, too. They can't produce food there aside from just eating voidstalkers. There grow no cloth plants, so far there haven't been any ore discovered and we do not know whether voidstalkers have actual skins, so creating armor and weapons is limited.

The other Alliance races aren't very interested in the void, either, so the knowledge value is also debatable. Aside from high- and void elves there are no other races present. Most races believe in the Light, one way or another which is pretty much antagonistic to the void.

If we're going to be technical and look at it from a 3rd person omnisicient standpoint rather than from within the context of what the characters know, Telogrus Rift is one of the most important strategic footholds in the overarching narrative of WoW. They have a secured location in the Void and the Void Elves (as much as I hate them) are certainly going to be instrumental what with all the R&D they're doing there. It's a military asset to be sure, not domestic. Not everything needs to be farmland, forests and goldmines to serve the Alliance's needs. They have no shortage of resources, as far as we're concerned!