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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That is by far one of the most ignorant things I've ever seen. How much toxicity is based 100% on experiences and being on the outside looking in. When enough people are all saying the same thing, it's no longer anecdotal. The only reason anyone would say THAT is anecdotal still is just someone who outright refuses to admit they're wrong about a subject. Or it's because THEY are part of that toxicity and by acknowledging how bad the toxicity is, they have to admit they're a shitty person.
    I tend to think about it in a completely different way.

    I have a very agreeable personality. I occasionally see people being rude, but I don't get back at them unless I can somehow benefit from that (or I am confident in being right and have nothing better to do... anyway, I pick my fights based on rational rather than emotional considerations). At the end of the day, even though I'm pugging a lot in WoW, I face very little toxicity.

    So when all these numerous people complain about toxicity, I see no other reason other than these people not being able to control themselves. It's their own fault, and the problem of their own making. These people should learn to dissociate themselves from the pointless conflicts, instead of constantly looking to hit back or get upset over minor things.

    Basically: the "majority" is wrong. Or shall I say: the vocal mass of people complaining about toxicity are victims of their own making.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-05-09 at 12:47 PM.

  2. #322
    I mean, I don't really understand how anyone would argue that current WoW is as much of a social game as Classic WoW is. No one who has played both versions of the game can make this claim in good faith.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    There is no choice in it. Most people will pick path of least resistance no becouse they want it or becouse its fun but becouse its efficient. In such eviroment is no longer your choice but game made that choice for you and you just follow it.
    how the hell is playing solo more efficient?
    without social interactions you cant progres past hc dungeon or LFR pretty much...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I mean, I don't really understand how anyone would argue that current WoW is as much of a social game as Classic WoW is. No one who has played both versions of the game can make this claim in good faith.
    current wow doesnt FORCE socialisation as it used to in vanila, but if you want it to be social it surely is as social as it used to be...
    actualy i would argue it is even a bit more social than it used to be due to communities... just bcs people DONT WANT to be social doesnt mean its games fault...

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    just bcs people DONT WANT to be social doesnt mean its games fault...
    "Fault" is the wrong word here.
    But if a game doesn't push you as much towards socializing with other players, it obviously is a less social experience.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how the hell is playing solo more efficient?
    without social interactions you cant progres past hc dungeon or LFR pretty much...

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    current wow doesnt FORCE socialisation as it used to in vanila, but if you want it to be social it surely is as social as it used to be...
    actualy i would argue it is even a bit more social than it used to be due to communities... just bcs people DONT WANT to be social doesnt mean its games fault...
    Yes its game fault becouse human behaviour is shaped by enviroment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how the hell is playing solo more efficient?
    without social interactions you cant progres past hc dungeon or LFR pretty much...

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    current wow doesnt FORCE socialisation as it used to in vanila, but if you want it to be social it surely is as social as it used to be...
    actualy i would argue it is even a bit more social than it used to be due to communities... just bcs people DONT WANT to be social doesnt mean its games fault...
    You dont have to progress past lfg and lfr. Thete not extra content in higher diffifulty levels..

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Multiple factors from being a game with a different target audience from WoW and also not having caved to that go go go STFU or I will kick you for telling me WTF to do audience. Not that WoW has always had that audience while now it is stuck with it and the mentality. There is no going back for now at least.

    Personally FFXIV is not my style while having heard feedback from many I have played long term across many games the general sentiment has been shared. Sure one can find good helpful people in WoW and I have at times with random queue activities. Overall though I have found the behavior to become quite sour compared to other games I play and how it was when the feature was first implemented. Even the PuG community is quite touchy compared to other games in my experience and in early WoW experience.
    To say toxicity doesn't exist in FF14 is disingenuous, not you but those that say it. My experience early on before the first expansion and more recently a few months ago, I get tons of toxic responses when asking in chat about something I don't know. I get a few whispers from helpful people just like I've seen happen in WoW.

    But FF14 has a mentor program thingy that may help reduce some of the toxicity, also it's a lot newer than WoW, and could also be that it has a lot less players than WoW. Also, ot sure if there is cross play between console and PC, but that could be a reason too. If more people are on console it might make it harder to respond with toxicity ingame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how the hell is playing solo more efficient?
    without social interactions you cant progres past hc dungeon or LFR pretty much...

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    current wow doesnt FORCE socialisation as it used to in vanila, but if you want it to be social it surely is as social as it used to be...
    actualy i would argue it is even a bit more social than it used to be due to communities... just bcs people DONT WANT to be social doesnt mean its games fault...
    Let's see, I've done a weekly M quest just by looking for premade. No words were spoken. I've pugged normal and heroic Nyalotha this week and outside of the raid lead announcing info, I didn't need to socialize. I did, but I don't recall any of the non talkative peeps getting kicked for not being social.

  7. #327
    The accessibility is only half the problem. The other half is that gear has never meant less.

    It’s seasonal, and there’s 4 nearly identical flavors of the same gear across difficulties. Why not give higher difficulty raids and dungeons exclusive gear besides ilvl? A trinket or weapon that only drops in mythic boss X. A legendary that’s only obtainable on rng on final boss on mythic. Etc

    It’s more diablo gearing wise than wow classic and that’s a problem. A huge appeal of wow classic is the superior rpg gear system

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    "Fault" is the wrong word here.
    But if a game doesn't push you as much towards socializing with other players, it obviously is a less social experience.
    Still trying to see how WoW pushed players to socialize. I don't consider begging for help in chat to be able to run a dungeon or quest being social. Sure guilds were a social construct but you were not required to be in one even for raiding. My first foray in MC was a PuG as was my first clear. We regularly found PuGs to help us fill 40 for BWL and AQ40.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Still trying to see how WoW pushed players to socialize. I don't consider begging for help in chat to be able to run a dungeon or quest being social. Sure guilds were a social construct but you were not required to be in one even for raiding. My first foray in MC was a PuG as was my first clear. We regularly found PuGs to help us fill 40 for BWL and AQ40.
    First off, try to gear yourself if you're pugging on a consistent basis.
    If you're doing just pug raids, you always have new people, meaning that if a certain item eludes you, your competition will take far longer to shrink (and probably never vanish).
    If you're joining a guild and you're raiding with the same people, you will sooner or later reach a point where you know "okay, next time it drops, it's mine" because no one else needs it anymore, you have the most DKP or you're being given priority.

    If you're just gearing yourself via pugs, you need to be incredibly lucky or make the pugs yourself and handpick the people that can roll on your items to reduce competition.

    Second, the entire profession thing.
    If you want a rare recipe enchanted or crafted, the crafter will ask for a cut quite often.
    Ask any Warrior who had their Lionheart Helmet built during the first weeks / months, most of them can tell you a story how much they paid for the BS to press a button.

    If you're in a guild, they probably won't do that, which is a real boon.
    It's something that won't break your neck, but it does add up over time without question, which is very relevant in a game where passive gold income is very limited.

    Lastly, questing and dungeons.
    Ever wanted to do an Elite quest and no one was around that happened to have the same quests?
    Maybe you want to do some dungeon because you have so many quests but can't fill the group?
    Well, would be good to know some people that might help you right now, wouldn't it?

    The key part here is that you shouldn't start to socialize once you need help, but that you already are part of a group / guild before you need it, you're just reaping the rewards of having socialized in the past if they decide to help you because of that.
    If you start to "socialize" once you need help, you're basically the guy who never gives a crap about anyone until others can help them, which isn't really the best attitude.


    So many people miss the crucial part in the Morhaime Interview, because he said that for the sake of accessability, they removed a lot of aspects where the game rewarded you for playing with the same people again and again.
    That is the important thing here, being rewarded for playing with the same people.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-05-09 at 02:23 PM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    current wow doesnt FORCE socialisation as it used to in vanila, but if you want it to be social it surely is as social as it used to be...
    actualy i would argue it is even a bit more social than it used to be due to communities... just bcs people DONT WANT to be social doesnt mean its games fault...
    This is really dumb reasoning. No one forces you to socialise in Classic but the game is desgined in a way that heavily promotes this playstyle. Promoting a social gameplay experience is what makes it a social game. If the game mechanics don't reinforce that idea anymore (e.g. for the sake of accessibility), it becomes less of a social game. I can make friends in League of Legends and engage with other players but that doesn't mean the game is designed to promote a social experience. It's that simple. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-05-09 at 03:42 PM.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    I tend to think about it in a completely different way.

    I have a very agreeable personality. I occasionally see people being rude, but I don't get back at them unless I can somehow benefit from that (or I am confident in being right and have nothing better to do... anyway, I pick my fights based on rational rather than emotional considerations). At the end of the day, even though I'm pugging a lot in WoW, I face very little toxicity.

    So when all these numerous people complain about toxicity, I see no other reason other than these people not being able to control themselves. It's their own fault, and the problem of their own making. These people should learn to dissociate themselves from the pointless conflicts, instead of constantly looking to hit back or get upset over minor things.

    Basically: the "majority" is wrong. Or shall I say: the vocal mass of people complaining about toxicity are victims of their own making.
    Yeah no I don't agree with you whatsoever. Saying that people experiencing toxicity is 100% their own fault is pretty much gaslighting. Whether the person chooses to engage the person being toxic is irrelevant. Because whether I engage or not, that person is still toxic as hell. I could write a massive list of why WoW has a horrendously toxic community but something tells me you really don't care.

  12. #332
    Accessibility has nothing realy to do with the current state of the game, But REPEATABILITY does, people being able to spam 100 dungeons in 1 day and keep getting rewards is just realy lazy game design, hell dungeons provide equal gear to raiding pretty much, and the decline in raiding since legion has been pretty dramatic because of said game design, and it will only be more if this repeatability with limitless game design will keep continuing, theirs no goals u can set for yourself, no realy narrative you can follow. just play and play.

    I remember when you went into an xpac, and the big bad was waiting for you at the end, but his minions (dungeon bosses) you wanted to slay first and obtain their loot to get your further and further to your end goal. every week you could make your own schedule of how you wanted to get to your goal, and every week their was a sense of being done for the week, that has definitly been removed since legion.

    But then these dungeon bosses drop item level 1, the raid drop item level 5 ( just for speculation sakes )
    and when the next patch his, the dungeon bosses drops item level 7, and the raid remains at 5. this is unconsciously taking meaning away, hell.

    only way forward would be to remove mythic + alltogether, or remove all their rewards and make it a playground where you can obtain and earn transmogs (wings/glowy effect, special armor sets, sick weapons mogs etc. )

    people are hopefull about shadowlands, but afther legion their no expansion that will be good unless they will overhaul their mythic + concept and their limitless game designs.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how the hell is playing solo more efficient?
    without social interactions you cant progres past hc dungeon or LFR pretty much...

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    current wow doesnt FORCE socialisation as it used to in vanila, but if you want it to be social it surely is as social as it used to be...
    actualy i would argue it is even a bit more social than it used to be due to communities... just bcs people DONT WANT to be social doesnt mean its games fault...
    WoW NEVER forced socialization. Not even in vanilla.

  14. #334
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    I love how people behave like all the devs and their philosophies are wrong, but suddenly, and ex CEO of the company is right because he worked on the game previously.

    First things first, he can be wrong. Now, There is a lot more in what he said, its clear to me that he disagrees with the way they handled acessibility of the game in later years, but it's also clear to me that he understands that those changes would have to be made to let the game survive. Believe it or not, he is not bashing the game, he is giving his views and talking about it. Sure some of his talking points are negative, but he is not there to criticise the game, he is there to talk about a large part of his career and life. He says it himself, it is a fine line.

    You guys are taking one line and running with it.

    Yeah, the game is less social and some people might have left because of it.
    Yeah, acessibility helps keep the game alive and well.

    The real question is: where is the line drawn?
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I could write a massive list of why WoW has a horrendously toxic community
    Do list a couple for me please, as we might have completely different examples in mind (and even different definitions of what is "toxic").

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    Do list a couple for me please, as we might have completely different examples in mind (and even different definitions of what is "toxic").
    Numerous guild leaders in game will replace you on raid teams if their friends or significant other wants to raid in your place.
    People will vote kick you from instances because you're not "moving fast enough".
    People will kick you from things like Island Expeditions because they don't like your spec.
    People getting outright trolled in various chats just because they asked for help.
    People purposely trolling any PUG groups, wasting people's time.
    People getting kicked from instances purely for saying "brb" and being gone for like 30 seconds.

    So yeah. The community is exceptionally toxic.

  17. #337
    There are way too many things that have changed in WOW to say there is only one reason why the game is the way it is today.

    But generally the primary issue for WOW is that today's game is fundamentally different than the game 16 years ago.
    The game was designed to make getting from 1 to 60 take as long as possible.
    Most of the content from 1 to 60 was in quests that were doable only once.

    Now, the game is primarily focused on a small amount of leveling and mostly end game content, which means repeated content.
    No matter how you dress it up, doing the same thing over and over is not something that you can make "more social".
    There is only so much that can be done at this point to make the current iteration of WOW with its focus on repeated content more social.

    Well there are things that could be done but not sure how it would be received. For example instead of an interactive map that pops up telling you which zones have active world quests, why not make folks discover them manually? Meaning, if you want to find out what world quest is available for some zone, you actually have to travel there and find out. Not to mention there should be pop up quests that involve items that appear in the zone or drop off mobs that can only be found by killing said mobs. Most of that pop up style world quest UI came from Draenor, but if they removed that UI it would increase the social gameplay a lot. Meaning you would actually have to talk to people to find out what is going on in the world.

    Unfortunately because of the sharding, phasing and other new technologies in the game such a system would never be implemented.

    Over the course of its life, World of Warcraft, like other still-relevant MMORPGs, has streamlined. Developers smoothed out the bumps slowing down players’ pathways to the high-octane stuff—live-or-die raids and fanciful new landscapes—with automatic party-finders, quest markers, simplified gameplay systems and the like. Leveling is fast, and is slated to become 60 or 70 percent faster with World of Warcraft’s upcoming Shadowlands expansion. Players led much of this change, with aggressively aggregated information on forums, wikis, and walkthroughs, and the culture of optimized grinding that’s now become the norm.
    https://www.wired.com/story/world-of...n-hazzikostas/
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-05-09 at 06:31 PM.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    You dont have to progress past lfg and lfr. Thete not extra content in higher diffifulty levels..
    unless you count gear, challenge, achievments, mounts and other collectibles as content, then no...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This is really dumb reasoning. No one forces you to socialise in Classic but the game is desgined in a way that heavily promotes this playstyle. Promoting a social gameplay experience is what makes it a social game. If the game mechanics don't reinforce that idea anymore (e.g. for the sake of accessibility), it becomes less of a social game. I can make friends in League of Legends and engage with other players but that doesn't mean the game is designed to promote a social experience. It's that simple. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
    if you want to do most difficult content, you have to socialise... same as in vanila...
    or you had to socialise to do simple quests? not really... or leveling dungeos? well instead of button in UI you replied "inv" to someone spaming LFM in city, how the hell is that "more social" is beyond my understanding...
    what game mechanic in vanila "promoted" socialisation more than today? please humor me, bcs i play since vanila and can honestly say it was not more social

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Let's see, I've done a weekly M quest just by looking for premade. No words were spoken. I've pugged normal and heroic Nyalotha this week and outside of the raid lead announcing info, I didn't need to socialize. I did, but I don't recall any of the non talkative peeps getting kicked for not being social.
    are you SERIOUSLY suggesting people in vanila were ALWAYS chi-chating in dungeons? bcs if you do... you are wrong i play since vanila and it literaly depends on group, some people want to chat some dont, it have zero to do with game, and all to do with people

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Numerous guild leaders in game will replace you on raid teams if their friends or significant other wants to raid in your place.
    People will vote kick you from instances because you're not "moving fast enough".
    People will kick you from things like Island Expeditions because they don't like your spec.
    People getting outright trolled in various chats just because they asked for help.
    People purposely trolling any PUG groups, wasting people's time.
    People getting kicked from instances purely for saying "brb" and being gone for like 30 seconds.

    So yeah. The community is exceptionally toxic.
    Let's add a few more:

    People being kicked for asking about mechanics on a fight they haven't done so they don't mess up
    People being kicked for not asking about mechanics on a fight (see above as to why) and messing up
    People being kicked for "low DPS" when their DPS is perfectly fine even if suboptimal
    People being kicked for "not healing" when they aren't in a healing spec/nobody needs healing so they throw out some DPS
    People being kicked for "DPSing not healing" when they are a class that does DPS as part of healing (e.g. Holy Paladin Glimmer)
    People being kicked for random reasons/no reason at all
    People being kicked for "stupid hunter pet keeps pulling" when the hunter doesn't have a pet out
    People being kicked for getting lost in an instance they haven't been in since everyone rushes off without waiting

    Yeah, the WoW community is terrible. But would anything make it better? People are just inherently selfish, more so with anonymity.

  20. #340
    Could care less about social aspect. I'm here to kill things. I have friends and family to socialize with. You should try it.

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