"No Master Loot" discussion

[Gaidax]

But ML in pugs was disabled a long time ago and nobody had a problem with it. This whole discussion is literally about giving organized groups a choice between loot rules. So that when people join the said group they know in advance how loot is done and everyone is happy

I mean, you are the shining example why this system is a blessing.

I can only imagine the shitfest in these shitty 4/12 guilds who funnel loot to specific players because reasons.

[Draylock]

Real mythic guilds normally point at us and do a Nelson laugh

Yup, there it is. So you probably don't do sports, cause professional athletes would point at you and do a "Nelson laugh" (whatever the fuck that is). And never try to cook your own food, cause professional chefs. And never drive, cause professional drivers, etc.
And god forbid you have an opinion on any of those things. Better shut the fuck up, unless you're that top 0.1%, right?

[Draylock]

I mean, you are the shining example why this system is a blessing.

I can only imagine the shitfest in these shitty 4/12 guilds who funnel loot to specific players because reasons.

And you're a shining example of an asshole throwing baseless accusations? Or of an actual elitist retard, that sees the world as either top 0.1% like yourself or "the rest of that plebian trash, that are not allowed their own opinion"?

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Oh sorry, I'll refrain form super obscure pop-culture references from now on, because apparently this is serious business. Real serious.

That doesn't even make sense... I'm sure you're the coolest guy around, with the coolest and dankest memes and references, but you can't seriously expect everyone to get those references. We don't all come from the same country, after all

[Draylock]

Here, I'll help you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo
TTFN!

Oh nice, ty. Maybe I should give Simpsons a try.

And maybe you should be a little less insecure about yourself and what you do. Gonna do wonders for you.

[kaminaris]

Please educate yourself a little bit on "Return on Investment". And don't make it personal. It's unfortunate that nobody ever funneled loot into you, unless literally nobody else needed said loot, but maybe you should have done something to fix that yourself instead of whining how unfair the world is.

That is absolutely stupid "investing" in players at your guild level. I guess It goes all the way up from 200+.
Guilds like method or limit can invest into players but they are still giving loot based on which will get best upgrade, not "who is best player".
Because they know, it's gonna cripple their progression.

I have never ever been in guild that gave items to player that had slight upgrade over a player that had +45ilvl upgrade. Not even in buddy-loot guild.
And I've been in 200-1500 guilds since MoP.

You are the reason ML was removed, I guess blizzard was right. Community needs to be held by hand.

[Gaidax]

And you're a shining example of an asshole throwing baseless accusations? Or of an actual elitist retard, that sees the world as either top 0.1% like yourself or "the rest of that plebian trash, that are not allowed their own opinion"?

Boi, I understand you're mad - realizing you shot down your own arguments by showing why exactly this system was needed, but that does not mean you can just go and call names and assume shit. Look at you, lashing out at people right and left... pitiful.

Me elitist? Kekw, I can't really afford it with my rank 430 2 nights raiding guild, we just got 12/12 like 2 weeks ago. I represent that chill Mythic crowd that does not race to the world first, does not do split runs or other bullshit and does not have army of alts and raiders to perfectly match to every encounter.

We raid 2 night per week for 3 hours each, we do our loot council on simple math basis of which item gives biggest benefit to which player, regardless of subjective perception on that player skill or not. If people raid with us, they are good. As simple as that. Nobody is going to start this toxic shit where you start segregating players by skill level for loot rights, because for us the most important asset as a guild is people.

We aren't Method where we can just instantly pick whoever we want from the army of potential recruits or spin off guild/s banging their doors. Starting this bullshit "whelp you sim highest for this item, but some other guy gets it because *reasons*" would quickly turn ugly and it's even unnecessary to clear Mythic.


We give loot to people who have simmed/build benefit most from it and somehow we still clear Mythic raids for many years at 250-450 rank. That's why I totally don't understand WHY some guild that supposed to be even more chill than us has officers that are trying to play it big boi league, with subjective loot rules and assumptions people will just sit there and take their bullshit, just so they can prop guild "princelings" at expense of everyone else.

So yeah, good thing there is this system to save you from yourselves. At least it means that your guildies will still get loot for the time they put it, no matter how fucked up loot rules are in that tryhard 4/12 guild.

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That is absolutely stupid "investing" in players at your guild level. I guess It goes all the way up from 200+.
Guilds like method or limit can invest into players but they are still giving loot based on which will get best upgrade, not "who is best player".
Because they know, it's gonna cripple their progression.

I have never ever been in guild that gave items to player that had slight upgrade over a player that had +45ilvl upgrade. Not even in buddy-loot guild.
And I've been in 200-1500 guilds since MoP.

You are the reason ML was removed, I guess blizzard was right. Community needs to be held by hand.

Basically this. TLDR of my poem above.

4/12 guilds should embrace the benefits of being such instead of trying to tack on additional drawbacks of not being Method, by emulating Method. Bottom line - you're not, so cut the crap, it's like worst of both worlds - no progression AND toxic leadership with toxic rules.

[Draylock]

That is absolutely stupid "investing" in players at your guild level. I guess It goes all the way up from 200+.
Guilds like method or limit can invest into players but they are still giving loot based on which will get best upgrade, not "who is best player".
Because they know, it's gonna cripple their progression.

I have never ever been in guild that gave items to player that had slight upgrade over a player that had +45ilvl upgrade. Not even in buddy-loot guild.
And I've been in 200-1500 guilds since MoP.

You are the reason ML was removed, I guess blizzard was right. Community needs to be held by hand.

I don't know how much easier to understand can I make this, but here's an example. Player A has a +45 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 5% which increases the raid dps by 0.01%, because they perform very poorly. Player B has a +5 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 3% which increases the raid dps by 0.5%, because their performance is amazing. Obviously, I'm using very exaggerated numbers, just so someone like you can finally understand it.

And unless you're seeing a TF piece on the first week, you should never see a +45 ilvl upgrade in a raid of any difficulty. Cause what that means is that you came in terribly unprepared, expecting a boost. Unless, ofc, you are literally boosting an alt for the raid, which would be the only valid case for funneling a loot based solely on ilvl upgrades.

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Boi, I understand you're mad - realizing you shot down your own arguments by showing why exactly this system was needed, but that does not mean you can just go and call names and assume shit. Look at you, lashing out at people right and left... pitiful.

Me elitist? Kekw, I can't really afford it with my rank 430 2 nights raiding guild, we just got 12/12 like 2 weeks ago. I represent that chill Mythic crowd that does not race to the world first, does not do split runs or other bullshit and does not have army of alts and raiders to perfectly match to every encounter.

We raid 2 night per week for 3 hours each, we do our loot council on simple math basis of which item gives biggest benefit to which player, regardless of subjective perception on that player skill or not. If people raid with us, they are good. As simple as that. Nobody is going to start this toxic shit where you start segregating players by skill level for loot rights, because for us the most important asset as a guild is people.

We aren't Method where we can just instantly pick whoever we want from the army of potential recruits or spin off guild/s banging their doors. Starting this bullshit "whelp you sim highest for this item, but some other guy gets it because *reasons*" would quickly turn ugly and it's even unnecessary to clear Mythic.


We give loot to people who have simmed/build benefit most from it and somehow we still clear Mythic raids for many years at 250-450 rank. That's why I totally don't understand WHY some guild that supposed to be even more chill than us has officers that are trying to play it big boi league, with subjective loot rules and assumptions people will just sit there and take their bullshit, just so they can prop guild "princelings" at expense of everyone else.

So yeah, good thing there is this system to save you from yourselves. At least it means that your guildies will still get loot for the time they put it, no matter how fucked up loot rules are in that tryhard 4/12 guild.

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Basically this. TLDR of my poem above.

4/12 guilds should embrace the benefits of being such instead of trying to tack on additional drawbacks of not being Method, by emulating Method. Bottom line - you're not, so cut the crap, it's like worst of both worlds - no progression AND toxic leadership with toxic rules.

But you're literally the one exhibiting that toxicity right now... You keep repeating this "4/12 guilds" tag as a means of invalidating opposing opinion (we're 5/12 btw, almost done with Inquisitor) and segregating people based on their progress. You say you're "a chill raiding guild", yet with your progress, you'd be in the top 2.5% of all raiding guilds. So, somewhere around 0.1% of all playerbase. That isn't exactly "chill". You keep accusing me of some draconian loot rules, yet you never even bothered to ask how exactly we did it. And then you proceed to basically describe exactly what we did (except also taking into consideration attendance and logs) and say that basically "you lowborn trash shouldn't even try to optimize, it's not for you". Who exactly is the toxic one here?

So no, I didn't "shoot down" any of my arguments. You assumed and were wrong, you were condescending, you were trashtalking, so yes, I was a somewhat jagged about it. But ultimately, you just proved my point.

[Gaidax]

I don't know how much easier to understand can I make this, but here's an example. Player A has a +45 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 5% which increases the raid dps by 0.01%, because they perform very poorly. Player B has a +5 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 3% which increases the raid dps by 0.5%, because their performance is amazing. Obviously, I'm using very exaggerated numbers, just so someone like you can finally understand it.

And unless you're seeing a TF piece on the first week, you should never see a +45 ilvl upgrade in a raid of any difficulty. Cause what that means is that you came in terribly unprepared, expecting a boost. Unless, ofc, you are literally boosting an alt for the raid, which would be the only valid case for funneling a loot based solely on ilvl upgrades.

I mean, we're not dealing with this exaggerated crap quoted, simply because we have balanced raid teams where you don't have star players mixed with pure garbage ones.

I also have hard time believing you truly have this star players with atrocious players mix - you won't have Limit grade players in 4/12 guilds and you won't have LFR raiders there either. Every (decent) guild has expert players who are a bit better than the rest, but that's the keyword "a bit". This bit is not a consideration in the loot council.

If your guild, for some reason, indeed has this insane mix of vastly different skill level players, then boi, Master Loot is the least of your problems.

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But you're literally the one exhibiting that toxicity right now... You keep repeating this "4/12 guilds" tag as a means of invalidating opposing opinion (we're 5/12 btw, almost done with Inquisitor) and segregating people based on their progress. You say you're "a chill raiding guild", yet with your progress, you'd be in the top 2.5% of all raiding guilds. So, somewhere around 0.1% of all playerbase. That isn't exactly "chill". You keep accusing me of some draconian loot rules, yet you never even bothered to ask how exactly we did it. And then you proceed to basically describe exactly what we did (except also taking into consideration attendance and logs) and say that basically "you lowborn trash shouldn't even try to optimize, it's not for you". Who exactly is the toxic one here?

So no, I didn't "shoot down" any of my arguments. You assumed and were wrong, you were condescending, you were trashtalking, so yes, I was a somewhat jagged about it. But ultimately, you just proved my point.

5/12? Impressive. Doing them split runs yet or saving that for Ra-den?

As for us, we raid 2 nights a week, 6 hours a week total. What's more chill than that, lol? 1 raid night per week? 3 hours per week? Kekw. That's all you need to down Mythic 12/12, provided you have decent players and good officer team.

I mean, the reason why people look at your piece at such disbelief is exactly that - in your case ML or no ML - makes 0 bloody difference whatsoever when it comes to your progress. Your guild challenges lie absolutely elsewhere - it's simply not a problem of loot and in your case specifically, your guild is lucky to have Blizzard hand holding with loot rules, otherwise it would just implode from within after several fucked up loot awards to the guild "princelings".

[Draylock]

I mean, we're not dealing with this exaggerated crap quoted, simply because we have balanced raid teams where you don't have star players mixed with pure garbage ones.

I also have hard time believing you truly have this star players with atrocious players mix - you won't have Limit grade players in 4/12 guilds and you won't have LFR raiders there either. Every (decent) guild has expert players who are a bit better than the rest, but that's the keyword "a bit". This bit is not a consideration in the loot council.

If your guild, for some reason, indeed has this insane mix of vastly different skill level players, then boi, Master Loot is the least of your problems.

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5/12? Impressive. Doing them split runs yet or saving that for Ra-den?

As for us, we raid 2 nights a week, 6 hours a week total. What's more chill than that, lol? 1 raid night per week? 3 hours per week? Kekw. That's all you need to down Mythic 12/12, provided you have decent players and good officer team.

I mean, the reason why people look at your piece at such disbelief is exactly that - in your case ML or no ML - makes 0 bloody difference whatsoever when it comes to your progress. Your guild challenges lie absolutely elsewhere - it's simply not a problem of loot and in your case specifically, your guild is lucky to have Blizzard hand holding with loot rules, otherwise it would just implode from within after several fucked up loot awards to the guild "princelings".

But we did pretty good in late WoD and Legion and never had any "imploding" over loot. And yes, we have a very strange mix of players due to how we formed and how the whole recruiting thing goes for us. I never said that ML was our biggest issue. You just kinda assumed all of the above and went with it, never bothering to actually confirm it. Cause obviously you know better, right? And then you tell me I'm the one segregating people.

There is no case in the history of anything ever when reducing the options and "holding someone's hand" is a better approach than letting people make their own choice and their own mistakes. I would much rather have that freedom back with all the possible downfalls than be forced into this "luck rolling". Even if that would be the end of the guild (which it wouldn't, given the track record).

[ymirsson]

There is no case in the history of anything ever when reducing the options and "holding someone's hand" is a better approach than letting people make their own choice and their own mistakes.).

That assumes people are never incapable or unwilling to learn. But people are sometimes. Often indeed.

[OpieOP]

*snip*

I don't see the reasoning behind mechanically 'saving' such Guilds/Groups while clearly castrating Player's Choice in loot rules for Groups that handed ML reasonably before. Guilds that act like the one you mentioned won't work anyways with or without ML. The only 'positive' thing PL provides would be a onetime safe Item for Slot X or safe offspec weapon in some cases. An example negative on the other hand is : getting an Item that is considerably worse than your already equipped one but higher in Ilvl will not be tradeable and either neglects your safe Item upgrade for Slot X or you're a total dickbag and disenchant said downgrade (without equipping it) and lock the next Item for Slot X also for you because of this system.

PL down the line is just as if not more flawed than ML ever was.

But I guess its way easier to neglect the issues that PL brought when I'm acting like I care about the loot-neglected-casual-raiders, while clearly mocking said people. Kekw.

So yeah, good thing there is this system to save you from yourselves. At least it means that your guildies will still get loot for the time they put it, no matter how fucked up loot rules are in that tryhard 4/12 guild.

5/12? Impressive. Doing them split runs yet or saving that for Ra-den?

[rrayy]

Unfortunately the game has lost many good things due to a whiny loud minority.

I am pretty sure 99% of the people who complain about master loot are people who didnt read their groups loot rules before they joined it.
Or they are entitled selfish people who thinks they are more important than what would benefit their guilds raid-group.

Either way, giving the choice to organized groups to use master loot should be invoked, players who dislike it can then choose to join PL-groups.

Blizzard has the data. The fact that they removed it tells me nothing you say is factual.

[kaminaris]

I don't know how much easier to understand can I make this, but here's an example. Player A has a +45 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 5% which increases the raid dps by 0.01%, because they perform very poorly. Player B has a +5 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 3% which increases the raid dps by 0.5%, because their performance is amazing. Obviously, I'm using very exaggerated numbers, just so someone like you can finally understand it.

And unless you're seeing a TF piece on the first week, you should never see a +45 ilvl upgrade in a raid of any difficulty. Cause what that means is that you came in terribly unprepared, expecting a boost. Unless, ofc, you are literally boosting an alt for the raid, which would be the only valid case for funneling a loot based solely on ilvl upgrades.

+5ilvl increases dps by 0.1-0.2% of this individual player which translates to 0.005-0.01% raid dps
+45ilvl increases dps by 2-3% of this individual player AND raises his stamina a lot, which translates to not dying so much and having 0.1-0.15% of raid dps.

Whatever his skill/dps is, it doesn't matter. Overall raid stamina is also very important.

+45ilvl is not uncommon especially at your level of involvement. You are in very casual guild and expect people to be farming like in top 100 guild.
That is at least amusing.

Now lets face reality, at this progress level all you gotta have is enough stamina and people not dying.

[Laughingjack]

Gm : "Hey trial, despite the fact we want you to stay in our guild and our guild to grow, I'm going to give all the loot to me and my buddies and you'll just and keep raiding with us"

Trial : "Man I wish this masterloot system didn't exist, but sure that sounds okay to me man"


Did this actually ever happen?

I mean trials got kicked out of guilds for not trading loot so I image it happens... It is kinda baffling to me how this perspective became so common though. Most mythic guilds don't actively trial new people during progression and with how common loot is usually trials are showed in it since members rarely need anything beyond a second weapon.

[Saltysquidoon]

ML/PL, I hate losing the ability to trade off shit that helps others more early but other then that who gives a shit?

What does baffle me is how if loot drama was this common how do these guilds even exist?
I've said it before in this thread I've been in the same guild a long time (admittedly I play off and on) and I remember less than 5 instances of loot drama (two of which are caused by the same two people hating each other) over multiple expacs, our kill to drama ratio must be vanishingly small. I can only say if the same guild is having loot drama constantly it's going to have bigger issues.

As for the trial thing. Is it actually common for guilds not to give gear to trials, not lower prior but like actually d/eing gear in front of some trial's eyes?

[kamuimac]

kekw, so I guess he's just another forum warrior talking shit.

"U gief best itenz to ur bestest players, dis way we knae kil Shadhar in September 2020!".

Frankly, this is exactly the case I'm talking about why new loot system is good - it prevents dimwitted officers in fringe guilds from bleeding their guildies dry and turning them into farm bots for the select few "good" players.

and you know waht is worst ? he himself dont realise that -_-

thats the reality - mid tier guilds which take forver to clear raids using the same looting principles as guilds that clear everything in a month.

they dont realise that the reason bosses dont die is not them not using ML but them doing 20th percentile dps and failing on mechanics.

they are the reason ML got removed.

[Draylock]

Dear moderators. How was that "trolling" in the context of the original poster and the entire thread?
Maybe for once, you should read the thread instead of just infracting reports. Anyway, I know you're volunteers doing the very best you can. <3

Thanks and best regards,
Casual Shitter.

Don't worry, I've got an infraction for responding in kind and bringing up an example as well xD
And I didn't report you. I guess we just all have to be happy and possitive and never argue about anything

[kamuimac]

+5ilvl increases dps by 0.1-0.2% of this individual player which translates to 0.005-0.01% raid dps
+45ilvl increases dps by 2-3% of this individual player AND raises his stamina a lot, which translates to not dying so much and having 0.1-0.15% of raid dps.

Whatever his skill/dps is, it doesn't matter. Overall raid stamina is also very important.

+45ilvl is not uncommon especially at your level of involvement. You are in very casual guild and expect people to be farming like in top 100 guild.
That is at least amusing.

Now lets face reality, at this progress level all you gotta have is enough stamina and people not dying.

this is another problem that people often neglect.

they treat stamina as completly usless stat because it doesnt do dps.

so they stack on bis lower itlv pieces get maybe 5% dps in return and loose 50k hp from lower itlv and die to mechanics that otherwise wouldnt kill them .

"because thats what pro players do" - yes they do - but they also dont fail on mechanics -_-

[Draylock]

+5ilvl increases dps by 0.1-0.2% of this individual player which translates to 0.005-0.01% raid dps
+45ilvl increases dps by 2-3% of this individual player AND raises his stamina a lot, which translates to not dying so much and having 0.1-0.15% of raid dps.

Whatever his skill/dps is, it doesn't matter. Overall raid stamina is also very important.

+45ilvl is not uncommon especially at your level of involvement. You are in very casual guild and expect people to be farming like in top 100 guild.
That is at least amusing.

Now lets face reality, at this progress level all you gotta have is enough stamina and people not dying.

No, it does not translate in that increase in dps in every single case. And extra stamina sure does help, but not if the said player dies every time anyway, just straining the healers for a longer time with more hp.

Man, you gotta pick one, either be precise with that one specific case (in which, by the way, a long time raider with great performance got a 15 ilvl upgrade, despite what the title of that clip says) or generalize completely, regardless of specific cases.

And even someone of your legendary level of ignorant condescension has to understand how stupid that "at your level" line is. 5/12 mythic is nothing compared to top guilds, sure, but is still a lot more than about 95% of playerbase will ever see. +45 ilvl upgrades are not common for any guild with comparable progress (unless you're talking about an incredible titanforge). And nobody is asking people to farm top gear before enteringvthe raid. Use some common sense and understand that asking people to not raid in quest greens is not "demanding too much".

Now, mind sharing your progress? Surely you must be 12/12 mythic and in Hall of Fame with how high and mighty you present yourself. Else you'd look pretty pathetic.

[Huzzaa]

Gm : "Hey trial, despite the fact we want you to stay in our guild and our guild to grow, I'm going to give all the loot to me and my buddies and you'll just and keep raiding with us"

Trial : "Man I wish this masterloot system didn't exist, but sure that sounds okay to me man"


Did this actually ever happen?

Nope, and all the tropes here touting as if this was the case in every single instance are delusional idiots fooling themselves.

My stance is firm. Bring it back.