Shadowlands Enhance Skill Bloat

[Kralljin]

Yea, just play something else and leave shamans to those that like shamans.

Playing Shaman 14 years now.
Totems still sucked since Wotlk, Period.

If you dismiss legit criticism with "just play something else!" then you're not adding anything of value to this discussion.

[Saltysquidoon]

No, Totems are simply not a great mechanic that works that well in WoW, let alone the modern game.

The reality of the situation is simply: Totems have been more of a curse than a blessing since Wotlk, where Buff totems were no longer unique.
Then, every buff totem was pretty much inferior to the tools other classes had, because they had to no range restrictions and were not tied to some immobile stick in the ground.

This is true but, the issue is blizzard not totems. If the shaman is going to be spending gcds to drop totems then the buff either has to be unique or stronger, no one is going to give a shit about windfury if a frost dk brings the same buff passively because of icy talons (in wrath/cata).

Not to mention, certain totems were just a braindead mechanic, Searing totem being the prime candidate here, it's simply not a great spell.
It has no real niche, it's just something you press on CD because numbers tell you to.

Searing as it is on the alpha is a shitshow, at least in the past it was a button you pressed for a reason. In SL there needs to be a reason to want to press ST even if you dont take searing assault, maybe the old stacking searing flames? That would even make LL not just an empty filler that does nothing and interacts with nothing.

Often times, they feel just like inferior spells of something another class has with the downside being an immobile stick with 5 hp.
Totem *can* work, but they require work and thought on Blizzards end to work properly without becoming a major detriment of the Shaman class that just drags it down.
And whether Blizzard is willing to put that effort into them to make them function properly is something i doubt.

Like you said totems can feel good, HST or MTT are both really 'feels good' moments if they could make all totems feel that good they would be in a good place.

[WhirlwindTV]

Just reading this thread...ugh.

Yeah Rockbiter and Lava Lash only do damage, but they also proc Stormbringer because they're considered weapon based attacks (can't do them when disarmed). That is the synergy with the class mechanics. In PvP currently I don't use Lava Lash almost ever, because it costs a huge chunk of Maelstrom that likely needs to go into a heal, slow, or just banked because you can't guarantee that Maelstrom for when Stormbringer procs run out.

My biggest concern for Shadowlands (outside of balance, and how we got gutted in 8.1 and left in the dumpster) is totems. I HATE totems. Constantly having to move them to stay in range, for a class completely dependant on globals having to spend one to move my totems constantly with the fight feels extremely bad. It is why I was thrilled to know that the Totem Mastery was hot garbage in BFA and even after the nerf there was no reason to ever spec out of Forceful Winds. So when I initially saw we were getting Searing Totem back I howled on the inside, before finding out thank jebus that it has been turned into a small cooldown totem. Rejoice! Healing Stream functions the same. Then I see Windfury totem, and not only is it a non-cd buff totem, its range is an absolutely abysmal 12 yds. I'm going to have to CONSTANTLY move this stupid thing and its going to cost globals and an absurd amount of mana to do it. You could say just don't bother, but the fact that it exists means that is part of what they're balancing our damage for. They're taking damage away from other sources so that we can apply damage from this garbage trash totem. Then I saw they swapped Forceful Winds down to t1 and Hot Hands up. Crap. Without Maelstrom I genuinely should be using Lava Lash significantly more, but it'll be up to the sims to see if if its good or not, because Hot Hands is reading 5% proc rate off auto attacks which sounds like hot garbage.

As a concept in of itself, I don't mind totems. Their execution is awful though. Totem Mastery totems need at minimum 60 yd range. For enhancement, Tremor Windfury and Grounding need 40 yds minimum. Ele and Resto can position themselves wherever and be effective relative to their teammates, it isn't often one will find the Ele Shaman pushing max range from their healer in an arena, while Enhance HAS TO chase. Healers being out of range of Tremor/Grounding happens all the time and it is an absurd mechanic when a Ret Pally can Blessing of Sanc at 40 yards.

My second problem with Enhance is Mastery. In BFA our Mastery genuinely effects only 40% of our damage. Like wut? Because the mastery gains on Stormbringer are negligible there is no reason to pump mastery with where it scales. This is going to chance slightly because of Maelstrom Lightning Bolts and Flame Shock, but it still likely won't push our elemental damage over 55% because we're gaining Searing Totem/Lightning Bolts/Flame Shock, but losing Hailstorm/Lightning Shield procs. It needs to do more, like make a % of Stormstrike armor piercing. Or bring back the old Ascendance lightning (which visually was amazing, this wind strike stuff looks terrible) so that our big CD is boosted by it. Just something needs to be added to it. Destro Warlock is an example, their mastery boosts flat damage done and flat damage reduced. Given how defensively weak enhancement is and how we're arguably getting weaker by losing on demand instant heals, a change to our mastery to add some damage reduction would be quite nice.

[Kalarm]

The big problem with totems is they can't be TOO impactful because if they are while easily destroyable, we become gimped whenever there is a bug or something destroys them in PVE while being almost useless in PVP.

What they could potentially do would be to make them all have a whole lot of HP or be plain invulnerable. That's is the main problem.

If an enh sham without totems is 85% power of other classes, that means the class/spec is always behind without totems / PVP
If an enh sham without totems is 100% power of other classes, that means the class/spec is going to be OP in PVE but fine in PVP

Having them be this avoidable mechanic adds some identity to the spec but also this power paradox.

Maybe they could make it so some totems are invulnerable while others have HP's. IE, tremor or grounding could stay the same (or be balanced in a way that they ain't too powerful if invulnerable).

Afterwards, they could do some interesting stuff with totems if they are invulnerable. You could let's stay have a crash lightning totem. You can cast it where you want and whenever you stormstrike or lightning bolt, lightning strikes around the totem. perhaps replacing the actual crash lightning we got. Searing totem could be a beam of fire that targets anything in line of sight that has fire nova on and deals some really decent DMG. Right now, searing totem can't do anything worthwhile because it can be destroyed by 1 auto-attack.

An ability is really just an ability. Technically, shams could of been just... all totems... All the time. Cast maelstrom totem, that totem gathers charges whenever you cast stormstrike totem. At 5 charges it launches a lightning bolt. I'm not saying it's a good idea, it's not, I'm just pointing that you can do pretty much anything with totems. They are simply limited to being pretty much useless because of how they can be destroyed. It's even worst for Ele since the range of it can affect them even more. Enh has a bit less issues since we're usually standing right beside the target.

Totems can be interesting. They just need to be re-thought out.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Playing Shaman 14 years now.
Totems still sucked since Wotlk, Period.

If you dismiss legit criticism with "just play something else!" then you're not adding anything of value to this discussion.

Shamans are about totems, period. If you don't like totems, you can play something else.

[Craaazyyy]

The big problem with totems is they can't be TOO impactful because if they are while easily destroyable, we become gimped whenever there is a bug or something destroys them in PVE while being almost useless in PVP.

What they could potentially do would be to make them all have a whole lot of HP or be plain invulnerable. That's is the main problem.

If an enh sham without totems is 85% power of other classes, that means the class/spec is always behind without totems / PVP
If an enh sham without totems is 100% power of other classes, that means the class/spec is going to be OP in PVE but fine in PVP

Having them be this avoidable mechanic adds some identity to the spec but also this power paradox.

Maybe they could make it so some totems are invulnerable while others have HP's. IE, tremor or grounding could stay the same (or be balanced in a way that they ain't too powerful if invulnerable).

Afterwards, they could do some interesting stuff with totems if they are invulnerable. You could let's stay have a crash lightning totem. You can cast it where you want and whenever you stormstrike or lightning bolt, lightning strikes around the totem. perhaps replacing the actual crash lightning we got. Searing totem could be a beam of fire that targets anything in line of sight that has fire nova on and deals some really decent DMG. Right now, searing totem can't do anything worthwhile because it can be destroyed by 1 auto-attack.

An ability is really just an ability. Technically, shams could of been just... all totems... All the time. Cast maelstrom totem, that totem gathers charges whenever you cast stormstrike totem. At 5 charges it launches a lightning bolt. I'm not saying it's a good idea, it's not, I'm just pointing that you can do pretty much anything with totems. They are simply limited to being pretty much useless because of how they can be destroyed. It's even worst for Ele since the range of it can affect them even more. Enh has a bit less issues since we're usually standing right beside the target.

Totems can be interesting. They just need to be re-thought out.

if you think that totems are almost useless in pvp you probably should stop trying to pvp

[Shinrael]

If I had to throw away any abilities from Enhancement, I'd say Lightning Bolt first and Chain Lightning if another was needed as those are most defined as Elemental abilities.

Only thing I'd throw away is you from this conversation

OT: I'd love to see Lava Lash gone and Rockbiter changed into something more interesting and interactive with the rest of the rotation. But to me (Enhancement) Shaman is about the Raw Elements. Lightning first and foremost. Wind, Earth, Water and Fire. Lava simply doesn't have that "Shaman" vibe to it. And what the hell is a Lava Lash supposed to be. Unlike Lava Bolt, this one sounds more deadly to the user than their enemy. You enhance your weapon with lava? So your weapon melts? Or your hands? If you just heat up the edge of your weapon to make it cut through armor or something, than that's Flame/Fire Lash, no? We have Flametongue weapon already, why do we need an ability with such a similar fantasy that doesn't do anything other than damage - it has ZERO interactivity with anything. No cooldown to manage, cost is gone too, we have other filler abilities too, only does damage and nothing else.... the aesthetic is lacking too. Lava would've been an interestic fantasy to play around with if our elements interacted between each other and we had to combine different elements for different effects.

Example: If you use Earth-based ability and then Fire-based ability on the same target, it gets a Lava debuff or something. You use Wind and Water and you get Lightning. Water and Fire - Steam (self heal?), etc.

But don't you be throwing away lightning bolts lest I throw A lightning bolt on YOU

[Kalarm]

if you think that totems are almost useless in pvp you probably should stop trying to pvp

I PVPed in the past and I honestly don't care about it now. I fail to see how this adds anything to the conversation other then classic "Kek, you bad, me good".

And that's not even what I said.

- - - Updated - - -

Only thing I'd throw away is you from this conversation

OT: I'd love to see Lava Lash gone and Rockbiter changed into something more interesting and interactive with the rest of the rotation. But to me (Enhancement) Shaman is about the Raw Elements. Lightning first and foremost. Wind, Earth, Water and Fire. Lava simply doesn't have that "Shaman" vibe to it. And what the hell is a Lava Lash supposed to be. Unlike Lava Bolt, this one sounds more deadly to the user than their enemy. You enhance your weapon with lava? So your weapon melts? Or your hands? If you just heat up the edge of your weapon to make it cut through armor or something, than that's Flame/Fire Lash, no? We have Flametongue weapon already, why do we need an ability with such a similar fantasy that doesn't do anything other than damage - it has ZERO interactivity with anything. No cooldown to manage, cost is gone too, we have other filler abilities too, only does damage and nothing else.... the aesthetic is lacking too. Lava would've been an interestic fantasy to play around with if our elements interacted between each other and we had to combine different elements for different effects.

Example: If you use Earth-based ability and then Fire-based ability on the same target, it gets a Lava debuff or something. You use Wind and Water and you get Lightning. Water and Fire - Steam (self heal?), etc.

But don't you be throwing away lightning bolts lest I throw A lightning bolt on YOU

I'd prefer they keep lava lash over RB. The earth + fire = lava debuff is insteresting but TBH, LL has been part of enh since BC and I do think it should stay. Rockbiter on the other hand has been part of the rotation only since legion. It used to be tanking imbue before that.

I do agree they need to give LL (or RB if they keep it) something to make it more interesting. Right now they are pretty much just filler unless talented, which sucks.

[Schattenlied]

What you call "bloat" I call depth. These pruned down classes we have right now are boring as all hell and I hate it.

[Shinrael]

I PVPed in the past and I honestly don't care about it now. I fail to see how this adds anything to the conversation other then classic "Kek, you bad, me good".

And that's not even what I said.

- - - Updated - - -



I'd prefer they keep lava lash over RB. The earth + fire = lava debuff is insteresting but TBH, LL has been part of enh since BC and I do think it should stay. Rockbiter on the other hand has been part of the rotation only since legion. It used to be tanking imbue before that.

I do agree they need to give LL (or RB if they keep it) something to make it more interesting. Right now they are pretty much just filler unless talented, which sucks.

It's been there since tbc?? I only remember Lava Lash being added in WotLK. Not much of a difference though I guess.

[Schattenlied]

It's been there since tbc?? I only remember Lava Lash being added in WotLK. Not much of a difference though I guess.

Was definitely added in Wrath, the only noteworthy thing Enhance got added to it in TBC was Dual Wield.

[Kalarm]

Was definitely added in Wrath, the only noteworthy thing Enhance got added to it in TBC was Dual Wield.

Oh seems like you're right! I really thought it had been added in TBC to discourage the use of 2 handers. Guess they only added it in wrath for that purpose! Sorry for the mixup!

Still, LL has been with us a long time, a lot longer then RB (the attack, not the tank imbue), so I do still think LL should stay (and be made interesting again.

[Greengrim]

I just couldn't resist.

[Oturanboa]

About totems:

There was a time mana and mana regen has been so important, mana tide totem was one of the best skills any class could have in game. When you drop it in arena, everyone stopped whatever they were doing and destroyed mana tide totem. When you could gain mana from it for full duration, it was powerful and fun to use. But against good arena players, you were basicly denied of it.

Druids had the very similar ability, innervate. You could argue this was a weaker version of mana tide because it only provided mana for druid and not whole party. But it wasn't tied to a destroyable totem and druids could use it whenever. This ability was never denied to them in arena.

Now which one is better? The one which gives mana to whole party? Or the one you can accually use in any situation?

Lets say, during nth expension, shaman get a version of paladin bubble but it's tied to a totem. What makes bubble awesome is: it can only be countered by priests atm. Which makes both priests and paladin "strong" because there is a mechanic in game only those 2 classes has a "say" over. When an ability like a form immunity is tied to destroyable long duration totem, every class has a power upon it. And it just can't be called immunity anymore.

Blizzard made totems so weak that people don't care to destroy them most of the time. But they also became too unimportant and we don't even wanna waste a global cooldown on it.

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Imagine other side of this mechanic. Instead of casting "healing wave" you drop a totem and totem casts healing wave and gets destroyed by itself after finishing. Would people change target to it everytime to destroy or silence the totem? Can you imagine never casting healing wave and letting totem do it for you? How OP would it be? This is basicly how the totems of bosses in game work.

These are all legit questions and everyone will have a valid opinion no matter which side of the discussion they are. Because of this, the side which were fuked most was generally shamans themselves. This is exactly why long time shaman players doesn't want their important abilities tied to a totem. It will either be too weak, or too strong to be left alone.

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About other stuff that's unpruned:
Real question is, are they worth the global cooldown? Main example is searing totem. It probably won't worth the global. I think it should stay as a stuational ability. But what kind of situation? I can't see a creative way to make it fun to use. I would wonder what blizzard will make of it. But i don't think they care for it as much.

Whats up with both rockbiter and lava lash being filler? This is what people mean when they talk about synergy. If amount of damage is the only thing makes lava lash different from rockbiter, whats the point of having it both? It's not really "oh too much button" its more like "oh too much button that do exactly same thing with different cooldowns. You could say incinirate and chaos bolt does same thing but everyone would laugh at you. This is why some of our numbers gotta be really big and some of them gotta be really small like i explained in another topic. What we have now is a lot of abilities that does similar midiocre damage. Thus, not fun. For enhancement at least. Elemental is much much better.

I love situational abilities. They add the real depth into the game. But they need to be taken into account WHILE doing the world building to create those "situations" which these "situational abilities" will shine. I think torgast is an awesome place where classes with situational abilities like shamans/druids/paladins will shine with their situational abilities rather than straightforward classes like rogue with 1 thing in mind. But again, searing totem seems like a hopeless canditate.

The reality is everyone loves totems. You mark your territory with it, buff yourself and allies. Even in pve "stories" like drustvar. You get into witch area and destroy their totems and rid them of the land... Like cool stuff. Both for users and adversaries. But the way they are implemented get too much controversy and ends up fucking up shamans.

In 15 years of existance of totems; Least controversy they recieved was during legion-bfa where they really don't mean much power or maintenance. Which i think is a good place to be. I drop thunderaan's fury without wasting a gcd as enhancement. I drop healing tide as resto and sometimes i spec for totem mastery as elemental without loosing/gaining much damage. A perfect place for totems to be imo.

[Thestrawman]

What you call "bloat" I call depth. These pruned down classes we have right now are boring as all hell and I hate it.

When I think depth I think of searing totem. /s

[Saltysquidoon]

What you call "bloat" I call depth. These pruned down classes we have right now are boring as all hell and I hate it.

Nah buttons for the sake of buttons isn't depth.

Not every single button has to be complexly woven into the spec to the point not pressing it essentially stops your rotation. But there is no point having both LL and RB if both of them are filler but LL is better filler just because it has always been important.
Having to talent into something to make LL matter is pants, having to choose competing talents to make LL or RB matter is double pants.

[Kralljin]

Shamans are about totems, period. If you don't like totems, you can play something else.

Because Totems don't work unless Blizzard puts work into them to make them work in the modern enviroment.

And again, you're adding nothing of value to this discussion, you're just saying "if you don't like it, go away!".
You could obviously raise some ideas to how totems could be updated so that we might have an actual constructive discussion about the topic...but nah, better just tell people that don't share your opinion to fuck off.

[apelsinjuice]

Totems should be much stronger and impactful if they want the class fantasy to be about totems, dropping a searing totem that do 1% of your total damage just feels so useless and boring

[Schattenlied]

Nah buttons for the sake of buttons isn't depth.

Not every single button has to be complexly woven into the spec to the point not pressing it essentially stops your rotation. But there is no point having both LL and RB if both of them are filler but LL is better filler just because it has always been important.
Having to talent into something to make LL matter is pants, having to choose competing talents to make LL or RB matter is double pants.

It's not buttons for the sake of buttons... and LL isn't the filler, Rockbiter is... LL does over 3x the damage Rockbiter does (and that's before you factor in it ignoring armor when RB doesn't), and will do well over half the damage of Stormstrike (your primary attack) after you factor in the fact that it ignores armor and SS doesn't.

The alternative is one of two things. 1. removing either LL or RB, and making what remains do as little, if not less damage than RB does now and giving it little or no cooldown (in which case you'll just spam it without thinking while SS is on CD), or having an absolute fuckton of downtime in your rotation. Either way, there's less depth.

[Gaidax]

Having Rockbiter, Rockbiter that does more damage as Fire and Searing Totem is apparently "depth".

Enhancement shaman was always a mix of petty damage sources and abilities and little essence. It's the definition of a spec where you have lots of buttons just for sake of having lots of buttons.

But, KK. Please do continue, while I chew on my popcorn. I wanna hear more about the "depth".