Game Developer's Vision VS Player Feedback - In preparation for Shadowlands

[Zephire]

Its a huge dilema

Yes, i would argue developers WANT you to play high end content
But
Should the entire game be designed to further this mentality?

Are min maxers the Mary Sue of World of Warcraft, where you and me are only used in the story to further the Mary Sues to GODLIKE status?
(weird example, sorry)

I think the Covenant situation is Blizzard (the DM's) creating some friction and drama for the min maxers could be wrong

I oftentimes find myself min/maxing to be able to comeplete something in a game. For instance, Sekiro, where I try make the most out of my tactic as I can in order to beat a boss. Even if the tactic in it self is flawed or suboptimal, it's my way of doing it and I min/max my way. Is that also min/maxing? I'd say so but it could also be that only the most effective way only is min/maxing.

Really, really good players are often the goal to beat, what you strive for or just admire. They're that good because they min/max and have a natural affinity of the game (maybe).

We always min/max, be it to beat levels, to overcome challenges or just having fun. Plainly speaking, you want to maximize the fun :P

[ClassicPeon]

I oftentimes find myself min/maxing to be able to comeplete something in a game. For instance, Sekiro, where I try make the most out of my tactic as I can in order to beat a boss. Even if the tactic in it self is flawed or suboptimal, it's my way of doing it and I min/max my way. Is that also min/maxing? I'd say so but it could also be that only the most effective way only is min/maxing.

Really, really good players are often the goal to beat, what you strive for or just admire. They're that good because they min/max and have a natural affinity of the game (maybe).

We always min/max, be it to beat levels, to overcome challenges or just having fun. Plainly speaking, you want to maximize the fun :P

Technically trying to better yourself and making up tactics doesnt nessesarily mean you are min/maxing

[Gaidax]

Interesting how this is both an answer to your question and a diss of you as a player

I know you can't answer, because whatever you answer will be another bunch of nonsense.

Just the two examples are brought suffice to show how ridiculous you are. "People in general didn't ask for removal of attunements in TBC" - OMEGALOL.

That was like number one dumpster fire topic of TBC, because of how ridiculous it was at a time. It was genuinely the biggest problem in the raiding scene at all levels.

[ClassicPeon]

I know you can't answer, because whatever you answer will be another bunch of nonsense.

Just the two examples are brought suffice to show how ridiculous you are. "People in general didn't ask for removal of attunements in TBC" - OMEGALOL.

I get the ad hominem attempt because i just trashed your self confidence, but if you have nothing to build it on while capsing its really hard to take you seriously

There is no point arguing facts. I know i am right

[Tojara]

Feel like players is getting a lot of grief for getting convenience they didnt actually ask for in this thread.

People didnt ask for less buttons to push
People didnt ask for 3 button rotations
In fact both of these convenience things have been a heated source of discussion between devs and players

Players didnt ask for the removal of resistance gear or entry quests for raids.
Players didnt ask for lfr(although some people like it a lot, i feel like its part of this convenience thing as it makes raiding less desirable from a lore pov)
Players didnt ask for free epics or free legendaries.

There is a lot of things i cant think of right now that players IN GENERAL didnt ask for. Just because some douche somewhere asked for it doesnt mean the entire playerbase is at fault for us getting something along those lines.

Lol.

People hated the old legendary system because it was just waiting for drops without any input at all. Once people realized what needed to be done in order to enter BT, let alone maintain, people kicked and screamed about that as well. Originally vials from KT only dropped several at a time, meaning that any round of recruits down the road would need to go back and kill KT in order to do what you're guild was actually progressing on.

I'd argue that people did ask for less than 3 button rotations because we got classic back, where rotations on some classes are actually less than 3.

Sure some people might have not asked for things, but there are ideas (whether it's vocal minority or not) that converge on both parties. They obviously didn't like how Vanilla was going, otherwise they wouldn't have changed to 25 man raiding. The entire intent of that was obviously to get more people into raiding, because the later raids in Vanilla were hardly touched. Haphazardly they put lots of walls up for the later parts of raiding, and the hardcore community (the only ones that could actually do the raids at the time) revolted because the player base was so small at the top, and the task of getting people attuned for raids would've been beyond annoying. The only people generally affected by legendary items were high end players. I don't think anybody thought Thunderfury, Sulfuras, Warglaives or the bow from Sunwell were designed properly.

Entry level quests to enter raids work fine on the entry level content. Slapping them in the middle of an expansion when they already moved to a system where it's not super efficient to do old raids doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Gaidax]

There is no point arguing facts. I know i am right

Of course you are, Timmy, of course you are...

People did not ask to remove attunements... lel... Christ, my sides.

[ClassicPeon]

Lol.

People hated the old legendary system because it was just waiting for drops without any input at all. Once people realized what needed to be done in order to enter BT, let alone maintain, people kicked and screamed about that as well. Originally vials from KT only dropped several at a time, meaning that any round of recruits down the road would need to go back and kill KT in order to do what you're guild was actually progressing on.

I'd argue that people did ask for less than 3 button rotations because we got classic back, where rotations on some classes are actually less than 3.

Sure some people might have not asked for things, but there are ideas (whether it's vocal minority or not) that converge on both parties. They obviously didn't like how Vanilla was going, otherwise they wouldn't have changed to 25 man raiding. The entire intent of that was obviously to get more people into raiding, because the later raids in Vanilla were hardly touched. Haphazardly they put lots of walls up for the later parts of raiding, and the hardcore community (the only ones that could actually do the raids at the time) revolted because the player base was so small at the top, and the task of getting people attuned for raids would've been beyond annoying. The only people generally affected by legendary items were high end players. I don't think anybody thought Thunderfury, Sulfuras, Warglaives or the bow from Sunwell were designed properly.

I'd love to argue with you but your middle point makes absolutely no sense. People asked for classic because of nostalgia. Not because of 3 button rotations. You said you would argue it though

- - - Updated - - -

Of course you are, Timmy, of course you are...

People did not ask to remove attunements... lel... Christ, my sides.

Thats only one of my points, and i know it was hotly debated. Doesnt mean everyone was off that mind. And many people have argued for getting atunements back. Doesnt mean it has to be the same kind of attunements.

Now, i havent dissed you in two posts. I hope your ego has recovered enough to try and make some arguments instead of just posting the same drivel over again

[Milfshaked]

I'd argue that people did ask for less than 3 button rotations because we got classic back, where rotations on some classes are actually less than 3.

That is extremely bad reasoning. Just because some people wanted classic, it does not mean that they loved everything about it. I do not think at any point did I ever hear anyone say that they missed frostbolt spam as a reason why classic was needed.

[Saltysquidoon]

Literaly everthing what made game more covinient becouse players didnt want waste time doing rpg stuff in mmorpg game.

The entire game philosophy, which went from "RPG"' to "convenience-ladden lobby game".

I'm genuinely curious about the line here for both of you.
Resist gear
Raid themes invalidating specs because of boss resists
hit cap
expertise
defence cap
spirirt
mandatory gems
enchants on almost every slot

For example, are you saying arcane mages just shouldn't have been playable in the nighthold or shadow/unholy/demo and affliction should have just not have been usable in ny'alotha?

*snip*

Issue is, the overall structure of TBC was a lot different than Wotlk.
You had Heroics locked behind reputations, no Dungeon finder that grouped up people with very different mindsets while also having alternative paths to progress your character (such as Professions, PvP or Reputations) which meant that you could pass over heroics to some degree and the experience wasn't as fast as pace as Wotlk, which meant that each piece of content did last longer for more casual players.

*snip*

And now forevermore, this gets used as prime example "why more difficult content is bad", while leaving out the fact that previously the game simply offered alternate paths to progress your character.

I don't agree with the thesis that tbc offered "alternative paths to progress your character" and even if it did that wasn't the problem.

The issue was in TBC there was no expectation of progression, if your gear/build/skills were too shit or you didn't want to put in the effort to join a guild to do heroics you didn't do heroics, In cata (largely because of the group finder) casual players saw that heroics were available in the group finder they came into it with the expectation not to be allowed to fail.
I guarantee if the release heroics were turned into "mythics" and not LFDable there would have been almost no outcry.

It's a situation that hasn't been rectified today really, you see LFR heroes step into a mythic + for the first time with trash gear, no enchants and bad talents and they spend the entire dungeon tanking the floor. Because blizzard doesn't let you fail until you hit heroic raids/mythic+ or PvP which compared to levelling, normal/heroic/mythic 0 and LFR/normal raids is a minuscule amount of content in the game.

That is extremely bad reasoning. Just because some people wanted classic, it does not mean that they loved everything about it. I do not think at any point did I ever hear anyone say that they missed frostbolt spam as a reason why classic was needed.

I mean it's not a point without merit. You often hear people talk about how much they loved vanilla (before classic proved it was bullshit) and tbc because "everything was hardcore back then and I hate these four button moba characters we have now", without a hint of irony.
Then you have to laugh and tell them about vanilla's FB/SB spam and TBC's hunter single button macro.

[Milfshaked]

I mean it's not a point without merit. You often hear people talk about how much they loved vanilla (before classic proved it was bullshit) and tbc because "everything was hardcore back then and I hate these four button moba characters we have now", without a hint of irony.
Then you have to laugh and tell them about vanilla's FB/SB spam and TBC's hunter single button macro.

No, it is a point 100% without any merit. The point is based on the false assumption that liking classic means that you love everything about it. Without that false assumption, that point has no merit.

[Big Thanks]

I oftentimes find myself min/maxing to be able to comeplete something in a game. For instance, Sekiro, where I try make the most out of my tactic as I can in order to beat a boss. Even if the tactic in it self is flawed or suboptimal, it's my way of doing it and I min/max my way. Is that also min/maxing? I'd say so but it could also be that only the most effective way only is min/maxing.

Really, really good players are often the goal to beat, what you strive for or just admire. They're that good because they min/max and have a natural affinity of the game (maybe).

We always min/max, be it to beat levels, to overcome challenges or just having fun. Plainly speaking, you want to maximize the fun :P

But you need to be really really careful if you want to put "min maxers" on a pedestal for your game.

I know how i feel, but i dont know if i can explain.

Min Maxing is an elimination proccess.
Is a proccess to remove everything bad and add everything good.

This goes against concepts like "creativity" and "roleplaying"
This goes in favor of math and optimization.

By the end of this elimination proccess...we have...1 way to play the game.
IF the game has an insanely well made design...it might have more than 1 ways to play at high end.

And whats next?
Should we put on a pedestal World Records next? Which by elemination proccess are going to create 1 way to play the game?
Thats my fear for WoW's future, but this is my agenda supporting Roleplay and Customization over Optimization.

[Saltysquidoon]

No, it is a point 100% without any merit. The point is based on the false assumption that liking classic means that you love everything about it. Without that false assumption, that point has no merit.

Your point is just assuming the diametric opposite position that everyone who wanted classic back hated FB spam which is equally unverifiable.

My point is that there are plenty of people who unironically nostalgia goggle about "complex rotations back in the day" then unironically point to vanilla (no so much anymore) and TBC, which is hilarious.

By the end of this elimination proccess...we have...1 way to play the game.
IF the game has an insanely well made design...it might have more than 1 ways to play at high end.

Starcraft: Brood war is one of the most popular games of all time. Not only is there at least three ways to play at the top end, but each matchup also has at least 3 viable strats.

The basic assumption that optimising play leads to only one viable strategy is a flawed premise.

[ClassicPeon]

Your point is just assuming the diametric opposite position that everyone who wanted classic back hated FB spam which is equally unverifiable.

My point is that there are plenty of people who unironically nostalgia goggle about "complex rotations back in the day" then unironically point to vanilla (no so much anymore) and TBC, which is hilarious.


Starcraft: Brood war is one of the most popular games of all time. Not only is there at least three ways to play at the top end, but each matchup also has at least 3 viable strats.

The basic assumption that optimising play leads to only one viable strategy is a flawed premise.

You are making a logical fallacy here. Disproving a point isnt the same as proving the opposite of that point.

The original argument was based on the logical fallacy called false cause

Your logical fallacy is called false dichotomy

[Doffen]

if you think that happened because of player feedback youre sorely mistaken and leaning towards a blizzard apologist... blizzard wanted participation numbers up across the board and THAT is the reason things changed.

Yeah, and we can't express that enough. WotLK changed the game so more people could experience the content they made and it's the same game design we have today. Accessibility.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, there IS plenty of room for wrong choices - that's why M+bajillion and Mythic raiding are not the only group content in WoW.

You don't have to do top difficulty stuff. It's just that if you want to aspire to it, then you gotta be optimal.

Overall, there are hordes of people who don't give a fuck about optimal game, you'd be surprised just how many are there to simply login, smash some stuff, run some low difficulty activity and log out for a week or a month. It is an absolutely viable way to play WoW, it's not all maximum efficiency all the time and these guys are the silent majority.

---

If anything, what you see on MMO-C is warped as fuck perception of things. People with thousands of posts, who are invested into WoW say how there is no place for something less than optimal. Joke of a century. It's almost as if stuff that is not top tier difficulty content does not exist over here.

And this is important as well. Well said.

[Mendzia]

I like how on retail forum part of MMo-Champ 'vocal minority' recently became the same meme-term like 'just nostalgia' from Classic one a few months ago.

[Blackmist]

I mean, there IS plenty of room for wrong choices - that's why M+bajillion and Mythic raiding are not the only group content in WoW.

You don't have to do top difficulty stuff. It's just that if you want to aspire to it, then you gotta be optimal.

Overall, there are hordes of people who don't give a fuck about optimal game, you'd be surprised just how many are there to simply login, smash some stuff, run some low difficulty activity and log out for a week or a month. It is an absolutely viable way to play WoW, it's not all maximum efficiency all the time and these guys are the silent majority.

Then I have a compromise. Keep systems like Covenants out of raids, dungeons and PvP. That way anything remotely competitive isn't locked behind it and being compelled to do it. It becomes like those three followers in Najzatar, and they join you for open world content.

[Big Thanks]

Starcraft: Brood war is one of the most popular games of all time. Not only is there at least three ways to play at the top end, but each matchup also has at least 3 viable strats.

The basic assumption that optimising play leads to only one viable strategy is a flawed premise.

It doesnt stop the fact min maxing is an elimination proccess in order to optimize.
Yes, is a creative proccess to get there, involving math and science...but the end result...the end result creates a Player-created-Boss you cant defeat if you also dont optimize yourself.

Im just going to leave here one example of Blizzard putting min maxers on a pedestal in WoW.
"Making specific azerite pieces only possible to get for people who do +10+ Mythic Dungeons and leaving noobs to rot with random pieces"

I was deemed "not worthy" of trying different PvE builds with specific azerite traits by Blizzard...because apparently i dont "need" them.

[Milfshaked]

Your point is just assuming the diametric opposite position that everyone who wanted classic back hated FB spam which is equally unverifiable.

My point is that there are plenty of people who unironically nostalgia goggle about "complex rotations back in the day" then unironically point to vanilla (no so much anymore) and TBC, which is hilarious.

No, my point is not assuming anything at all. I never claimed that people hated FB spam.

You are making the common mistake of creating a false dicotomy and denying the disjunct. Me saying that the claim that "People like Classic, therefor they like FB spam" is dumb and lacks reasoning does not mean that I am saying that the opposite is true.

[LordVargK]

BFA and titanforging wa a result of developers trying to make content more accessible and rewarding for everyone, which was done after listening to feedback from casuals who keeps crying that mythic raiders have better gear than them

That's utter nonsense.
Warforging/Titanforging was introduced as a tool to prolong content (back in MoP). Hardcore players were done with a patch once they hit BiS gear, titanforging meant that they would have to run the raid longer, because their BiS gear could still be improved via a titanforge proc.
Its second function was to slowly nerf a raid by empowering the player. Older Expansions introduced a stacking buff for the players in the last raid of the expansion, which stacked to about 30% more dmg and life. You don't have this system anymore, because through TF you got better gear "naturally" by doing content that was appropiate for your skill level.

It had nothing to do with people complaining about mythic raiders.

[Saltysquidoon]

Im just going to leave here one example of Blizzard putting min maxers on a pedestal in WoW.
"Making specific azerite pieces only possible to get for people who do +10+ Mythic Dungeons and leaving noobs to rot with random pieces"

I was deemed "not worthy" of trying different PvE builds with specific azerite traits by Blizzard...because apparently i dont "need" them.

I mean on one hand you're right azerite is a badly designed system generally.

On the other hand though, that's how gear works and has always worked? I can't get glad gear if I never step into arenas, I can't get mythic raid gear if I don't raid, I can't get dungeon pieces if I dont run dungeons.
Like M+ only players would be 'not worthy' of getting a trinket that only dropped off a raid boss (and vice versa).