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  1. #401
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    Just look at the server list. Or the fact that, as soon as Covid started, there were server issues, because people flooded back to the game, anyone who wanted to try it by then had very likely already done so, but I can't say there probably weren't a few new faces during that time. Also ZG launched around that time, or BWL can't really remember, and lo and behold a bunch of people came back to clear it, then left again, at least according to my guilds Discord, and if it happens in one guild it likely happens all over.

    People come and go from MMOs all the time, and tourists were a huge thing in Classic, we don't need Blizzard to know that population of an old game that's 100% solved will have fluctuations, it's simply how MMOs are. You can sit here and plug your ears and say Classic hasn't lost a single sub because Blizzard (the only source that would be valid here) hasn't said anything, but we all know that isn't true. Launch was Classic's high point, and that's long over.
    Absolutely none of what you've said is actually an answer to whether Classic has lost the majority of its players, as the person I was responding to claimed. No one said that there was absolutely no reduction in population, but if people want to claim that even half of Classic players have left, I'm going to need some evidence. Especially given that Warcraft Logs sampling sites still show that most servers seem to have retained 60~80% of their active raiders, which is discounting players that have since stopped raiding in favour of grinding out ranks in PvP.

    I have no evidence to suggest some massive exodus of players since launch, but I do have evidence that player numbers seem stable relative to their all-time peaks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    They only talk about of monthly active users, so while the amount of users playing WoW may of doubled the subs did not, and the next quarterly update shows MAU dropped back down to 32 million from the 33 million of classic launch. The only mention of an increase in subs is when classic actually launched, the other mentions are for active player community.
    I can understand how the report may be difficult to read, but subscriber counts doubled. You need to read the reference text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Activision Blizzard Q4
    World of Warcraft® exited 2019 with an active player community(3) more than twice the size of its Q2-ending level.
    Which, if you read further than just for a quote snipe, also says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Activision Blizzard Q4
    (3) Defined as players with monthly or longer-term subscriptions.
    Active player community is measured by monthly or longer-term subscriptions.
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  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    We can see over a whole year the MAU remains pretty much the same at 32 million, blizzard have not said the subs doubled so you cant just assume they did with no evidence to back it up, active users doubled due to there being 2 versions of the game.
    Yes they did. They straight up said MaU for WORLD OF WARCRAFT more than doubled. And they define MAU for wow as subs as stated above.

    Wait a minute, did you actually just suggest that the users doubled just because they are now being recorded as 2 separate games?

    My dude...

    Honestly this is just getting embarrassing at this point.

    You can't talk sense into the senseless

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Yes they did. They straight up said MaU for WORLD OF WARCRAFT more than doubled. And they define MAU for wow as subs as stated above.

    Wait a minute, did you actually just suggest that the users doubled just because they are now being recorded as 2 separate games?

    My dude...

    Honestly this is just getting embarrassing at this point.

    You can't talk sense into the senseless
    There is nothing to warrant a doubling.
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  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Naraga View Post
    Right now in Classic, factions are remotely balanced. On most servers horde outnumber alliance, but it is a playable balance. Some servers unfortunately have slipped away from this playable balance and we've all seen the numerous threads complaining about it.

    However if nothing is done, the issues with faction balance we currently experience will seem like a complete nonissue compared to what TBC will bring us.

    We know from private server data that at the start of each server we see a 70-30 to 80-20 faction balance favouring horde. Then in a manner of days to weeks this imbalance will quickly compound to 95+-5- balance as Alliance players quit or factionswitch because the game is literally unplayable for them.

    What are the reasons for this? Outside of subjective reasons like blood elf aesthetics or faction psychology, the main reasons for faction imbalance on TBC servers stems from the fact that horde racials are considered slightly better for PvE and much better for PvP. But one of the largest difference is in Paladins as the Horde Seal of Blood is a huge buff over Alliance paladins. This means that from an objective point of view, both PvP and PvE players have no reason to roll Alliance.

    With the min-max mindset we see in Classic, I'm fully expecting this private server trend to continue into Classic TBC. Even if current servers are progressed into TBC as is, I fear many Alliance players will straight up reroll.

    Now I don't want to suggest massive game overhauls as I simply do not trust current Blizzard to make such changes. The same reason why I wouldn't want to see Classic + as I have no faith in their ability to execute this. As such, the options we have to prevent this Alliance exodus are limited.

    Balancing the PvP racials would be too extensive of a change, and as such we simply need to accept some imbalance will exist. However I believe that for PvE we can make a very minor change that would make a huge difference, and that is making Seal of Blood available to all Paladins regardless of race. In a way it is a very minor change that fits in with the TBC design philosophy as many Vanilla racial class abilities were either removed or made class-wide, making Seal of Blood an outlier. While this would do nothing for PvP players, at least it removes a large incentive for PvE players to reroll to Horde. Combined with progressing current servers giving incentive to people to continue to play their current characters as rerolling would put them behind (as opposed to starting fresh servers) we can hopefully prevent private servers scenarios from happening in Classic. I would also suggest faction locks, preventing players who don't already have a character of level 60 to make new characters on factions that are outnumbering the opposing faction.

    I know this will not please purists, however I believe that in order to have a playable experience for both factions that resembles actual TBC as closely as possible, this one minor change needs to be made.

    P.S
    Please no retail players ITT that spam #nochanges out of spite, thanks.
    If a faction reaches something like 60 to 40 then lock creating characters on that faction. Then release the lock when it goes under 60 to 40. I've seen it on private servers and it works. No idea why Blizzard didn't do this and for classic and ruin it.
    Last edited by Fruitbat69kk; 2020-05-12 at 09:12 PM.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I can understand how the report may be difficult to read, but subscriber counts doubled. You need to read the reference text.



    Which, if you read further than just for a quote snipe, also says:



    Active player community is measured by monthly or longer-term subscriptions.
    No it doesnt mean subs doubled just the amount of active users playing WoW doubled which is still not seperate players, if subs doubled they would say subs doubled.

    2 versions of WoW means any player that is still playing retail and logs into classic it doubles the amount of users. Blizzard didnt say the subs doubled so your wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Yes they did. They straight up said MaU for WORLD OF WARCRAFT more than doubled. And they define MAU for wow as subs as stated above.

    Wait a minute, did you actually just suggest that the users doubled just because they are now being recorded as 2 separate games?

    My dude...

    Honestly this is just getting embarrassing at this point.

    You can't talk sense into the senseless
    MAU is seperate from subs, if 1 million active retail players log into classic then there is no sub increase at all and the MAU increases by 1 million.

    Blizzard didnt say anywhere subs doubled so stop giving the wrong information. Active users playing WoW doubled not subscribers.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2020-05-12 at 09:24 PM.
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  6. #406
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Absolutely none of what you've said is actually an answer to whether Classic has lost the majority of its players, as the person I was responding to claimed. No one said that there was absolutely no reduction in population, but if people want to claim that even half of Classic players have left, I'm going to need some evidence. Especially given that Warcraft Logs sampling sites still show that most servers seem to have retained 60~80% of their active raiders, which is discounting players that have since stopped raiding in favour of grinding out ranks in PvP.

    I have no evidence to suggest some massive exodus of players since launch, but I do have evidence that player numbers seem stable relative to their all-time peaks.
    You're never going to have solid evidence, because Blizzard knows why it's an awful idea to share sub numbers. We only got the "doubled subs" thing because it shows success and hype, reporting on dropped subs just generates doom and gloom. All we can do is speculate based on patterns, we have almost 16 years of data on how WoWs population fluctuates based on patches and content droughts, those patterns are pretty applicable to Classic, it's already shown it follows them.

    Vanilla/Classic are pretty heavily skewed towards the top end, if servers have lost an average of 30% of their raiders, what do you think happened to the casual population that's always driven WoW? Back when Vanilla was new, casuals had plenty to do, but compared to what most are use to in retail? It's a barren wasteland. That's not to say there's no casual community at all, there's definitely a decent sized one, but sadly we don't have any form of logs to find some kind of number, but again we can assume a decent chunk has left, if even 30% of raiders, the people who have content, have left.

    PVP also turned out to be a massive shit show, to the surprise of no one who actually understands Vanilla. Raiding is literally the heaviest community, it's the only portion of the game that's actually fun, losing 30% of that community is pretty big.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    No it doesnt mean subs doubled just the amount of active users playing WoW doubled which is still not seperate players, if subs doubled they would say subs doubled.

    2 versions of WoW means any player that is still playing retail and logs into classic it doubles the amount of users. Blizzard didnt say the subs doubled so your wrong.



    MAU is seperate from subs, if 1 million active retail players log into classic then there is no sub increase at all and the MAU increases by 1 million.

    Blizzard didnt say anywhere subs doubled so stop giving the wrong information. Active users playing WoW doubled not subscribers.
    Mau for wow specifically is not different, they literally describe it as subs.
    Go to this site and use ctrl f to find these references

    https://investor.activision.com/news...2019-financial

    3 Defined as players with monthly or longer-term subscriptions.
    World of Warcraft® exited 2019 with an active player community3 more than twice the size of its Q2-ending level.
    Last edited by Mosha; 2020-05-12 at 09:35 PM.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Mau for wow specifically is not different, they literally describe it as subs.
    WoW classic and WoW are 2 different games, 1 player logs into each and that counts as 2 but both add up to the total of active WoW users.

    Simple fact blizzard didnt say subs doubled so your wrong to just assume they did, there is no information you can provide that proves you correct.
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  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    WoW classic and WoW are 2 different games, 1 player logs into each and that counts as 2 but both add up to the total of active WoW users.

    Simple fact blizzard didnt say subs doubled so your wrong to just assume they did, there is no information you can provide that proves you correct.
    The statements from blizzard literally prove this wrong. They just fucking said, “we count MAU in WoW from subs” how are you not getting that.

    It’s literally in a statement FROM BLIZZARD that they count mau from wow with subs

    If you choose not to read the proof I’m posting to you then that’s on you

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    The statements from blizzard literally prove this wrong. They just fucking said, “we count MAU in WoW from subs” how are you not getting that.

    It’s literally in a statement FROM BLIZZARD that they count mau from wow with subs

    If you choose not to read the proof I’m posting to you then that’s on you
    Because you need to be subbed to play WoW, and you completely forget that most of the playerbase that would play classic are still actually playing or still subbed to WoW and dont need to sub again to play classic, they still got a large boost to subs but claiming to double the subs is giving the wrong information. If the subs actually doubled the impact to the MAU would be much more than 1 million.
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  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Because you need to be subbed to play WoW, and you completely forget that most of the playerbase that would play classic are still actually playing or still subbed to WoW and dont need to sub again to play classic, they still got a large boost to subs but claiming to double the subs is giving the wrong information. If the subs actually doubled the impact to the MAU would be much more than 1 million.
    Now you’re assuming. You are acting as if you even remotely know what retails subs are. Also, drop the 1 mil thing, that’s not how mau across all blizzard games works, like... at all.

    And once again, blizzards statements on how they define it prove every little piece of bullshit you made up, wrong.

    If you choose to disagree with that given actual proof then there is nothing more to add.

    Bye

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Now you’re assuming. You are acting as if you even remotely know what retails subs are. Also, drop the 1 mil thing, that’s not how mau across all blizzard games works, like... at all.

    And once again, blizzards statements on how they define it prove every little piece of bullshit you made up, wrong.

    If you choose to disagree with that given actual proof then there is nothing more to add.

    Bye
    Im not assuming anything, over a 3 month period MAU increased by 1 million in the period classic launched, and the next period it dropped by 1 million.

    Did blizzard state subs doubled? answer is no so your completely wrong so stop lying. Active users doubled not subs and the information given by blizzard backs that fact up.
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  13. #413
    Banned Lazuli's Avatar
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    Just play horde and stomp everything 10 to 1 its really that easy and has been for eons otherwise you accept being an underdog alliance and relish the challenge.

  14. #414
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Just play horde and stomp everything 10 to 1 its really that easy and has been for eons otherwise you accept being an underdog alliance and relish the challenge.
    I hardly think private server numbers are going to represent what we actually get when you factor in the outsiders in TBCClassic. Private servers predominantly appeal to min-maxers so of course Horde is going to have an overwhelming majority. When your average joe comes back for TBC official blizz servers, there'll be far more people who are just happy to enjoy alliance.

  15. #415
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    No it doesnt mean subs doubled just the amount of active users playing WoW doubled which is still not seperate players, if subs doubled they would say subs doubled.

    2 versions of WoW means any player that is still playing retail and logs into classic it doubles the amount of users. Blizzard didnt say the subs doubled so your wrong.
    The report said that subs doubled; they measure active players in the report by subs with 1 month or more recurring subscriptions still enabled. You're just blatantly lying at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    Raiding is literally the heaviest community, it's the only portion of the game that's actually fun, losing 30% of that community is pretty big.
    Being only 30% below peak after more than half a year, well after the expected contraction, and almost 4 months into the current raid tier isn't that bad. Especially when you compare it to the core game, which frequently sees massive drops near the end of every tier, assuming the same trend has continued as we saw with player numbers from Cataclysm to WoD.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    No Changes crowd had their say for Vanilla. This time around they can sod off. No changes is not only unrealistic, but it's a terrible idea. I don't want them to launch TBC based on end-of-expansion boss and dungeon tuning, class power and assistance buffs. I DO want Alliance Paladins to get Seal of the Martyr. I DO think racials should be tweaked a bit. If they don't, it's going to be a complete mess. Why? Just so you can brag about it being authentic? No. This is a perfect opportunity to improve some things.
    You should sit down and wait for BC Classic Plus. BC Classic will be intended as a museum piece.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  17. #417
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The report said that subs doubled; they measure active players in the report by subs with 1 month or more recurring subscriptions still enabled. You're just blatantly lying at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Being only 30% below peak after more than half a year, well after the expected contraction, and almost 4 months into the current raid tier isn't that bad. Especially when you compare it to the core game, which frequently sees massive drops near the end of every tier, assuming the same trend has continued as we saw with player numbers from Cataclysm to WoD.
    Well, right now you can attribute a good portion of the returning population to Covid. Millions of people suddenly have tons of time and low funds, Classic is a ton of time for not a lot of money, sounds like a perfect combo. What did the population look like say, 3 months before BWL dropped? I don't remember time lines of things too well, but that should be pre-covid/new raidhype, would give a much better idea of what the stable population is.

    Oh, and we can't forget alts. Most hardcore raiders, especially those that log, likely run multiple toons because there isn't much else to do in classic. Unless whatever site you use can filter alts, it makes your numbers basically useless, because a single person could be 6 logged characters for all we know.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2020-05-13 at 03:59 AM.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The report said that subs doubled; they measure active players in the report by subs with 1 month or more recurring subscriptions still enabled. You're just blatantly lying at this point.
    Do you understand how blizzard measure active users, An individual who accesses two of our games would be counted as two users, a large amount of subs would of come to try classic but blizzard have never once said the subs were doubled. Provide some proof before you lie.

    Say there are 4 million active subs now, 1 million try the game and 1 million come for classic, lets say for argument they both play retail and classic that would mean another 4 million MAU from just 1 million subs and 1 million currrent subs trying out the game, 25% increase in subs, but users have doubled from 4-8 million MAU.
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  19. #419
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You should sit down and wait for BC Classic Plus. BC Classic will be intended as a museum piece.
    We simply don't know that, and given how it hasn't even been announced yet, we have an opportunity to improve the situation.

    And there won't be a BC plus, just as there won't be a classic plus.

  20. #420
    Banned Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    I hardly think private server numbers are going to represent what we actually get when you factor in the outsiders in TBCClassic. Private servers predominantly appeal to min-maxers so of course Horde is going to have an overwhelming majority. When your average joe comes back for TBC official blizz servers, there'll be far more people who are just happy to enjoy alliance.
    ??? Never played private servers dude

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