Potential Class Hype

[TheRevenantHero]

Blizzard disagrees;



https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-class-updates



You were the LEADER of the Shaman during Legion, and you literally took Thralls place and his legendary weapon. Doesn't that make you a cut way above the rest of the Shaman in the game?



Any race can be an inventor? Okay, please name some non Goblin, Dwarven, and Gnome inventors who have invented some mechanical wonders in lore.

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The same applies to Gnome and Goblin Hunters as well.

That would be because Gazlowe has been slowly inching towards becoming a Tinker. He hasn't really been shown to invent anything just yet, unlike Mekkatorque;

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Gelbin_Mekkatorque[/QUOTE]

Oh good. Another reason for me to fucking hate Shadowlands as Blizzard continues to retcon their own god damned lore.

It doesn't matter if you're "A cut above the rest". The point is that you are not the ONLY Shaman that is a cut above the rest. The player isn't the only exemplar of their class. To say that would be to basically say every other powerful lore figure of that same class is a chump compared to the player.

Ok there's Grand Artificer Romuul. There's Kil'jaedan. I don't remember the name of the NPC but the blood elves have incredibly sophisticated magitech. Solog Roark created the incredibly advanced Iron Horde navy.

So there you go. A handful of NPCs that created exceptional things in the lore. Gnomes and Goblins aren't the only races capable of inventing or creating things. To say that they are is a tremendous insult to literally every other race on Azeroth.

[Teriz]

Of course. Not any old Gnome or Goblin Hunter could be a Tinker. They would need to take the Engineering Profession as well.

But again, what exactly makes them a Tinker and not a Hunter?

You have lore to back that up? Otherwise it seems like Headcanon.

Lore would actually suggest he is already a Tinker, and an Engineer, because the lore suggests they are one and the same.

Mekkatorque invented the Mechanostrider, Repair Bots, Gyromatic Micro-Adjustor, and his mech suit. Him being an inventor has been around since the beginning of WoW.

Gazlowe being technically inclined is a fairly recent thing. He was an architect of Orgrimmar, but it was unknown whether he was an inventor or not. Blizzard began making it obvious in HotS, and began showing more of it slowly through multiple WoW expansions. He's not on Mekkatorque's level yet, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Gazlowe beginning to invent stuff in upcoming expansions as the Goblin leader.

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Oh good. Another reason for me to fucking hate Shadowlands as Blizzard continues to retcon their own god damned lore.

Sorry for your lore loss.

It doesn't matter if you're "A cut above the rest". The point is that you are not the ONLY Shaman that is a cut above the rest. The player isn't the only exemplar of their class. To say that would be to basically say every other powerful lore figure of that same class is a chump compared to the player.

Then why did the player replace characters like Thrall in Legion instead of some random Shaman? That fact that YOU were chosen to wield Doomhammer and replace Thrall sort of indicates that you're something very special.

Ok there's Grand Artificer Romuul. There's Kil'jaeden. I don't remember the name of the NPC but the blood elves have incredibly sophisticated magitech. Solog Roark created the incredibly advanced Iron Horde navy.

So there you go. A handful of NPCs that created exceptional things in the lore. Gnomes and Goblins aren't the only races capable of inventing or creating things. To say that they are is a tremendous insult to literally every other race on Azeroth.

Uh, I said mechanical things. What did any of those NPCs invent?

[TheRevenantHero]

But again, what exactly makes them a Tinker and not a Hunter?



Mekkatorque invented the Mechanostrider, Repair Bots, Gyromatic Micro-Adjustor, and his mech suit. Him being an inventor has been around since the beginning of WoW.

Gazlowe being technically inclined is a fairly recent thing. He was an architect of Orgrimmar, but it was unknown whether he was an inventor or not. Blizzard began making it obvious in HotS, and began showing more of it slowly through multiple WoW expansions. He's not on Mekkatorque's level yet, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Gazlowe beginning to invent stuff in upcoming expansions as the Goblin leader.

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Sorry for your lore loss.



Then why did the player replace characters like Thrall in Legion instead of some random Shaman? That fact that YOU were chosen to wield Doomhammer and replace Thrall sort of indicates that you're something very special.



Uh, I said mechanical things. What did any of those NPCs invent?

Romuul built the Exodar and most of what's on the Vindicaar. The lightforged draenei created the warframes and various incredibly sophisticated weaponry such as anti-air platforms. Kil'jaedan invented and built a fucking interdimensional spaceship. The blood elves have created the Tempest Keep as well as various magitech golems.

And the shaman order hall is the ONLY example of that happening. There are still prominent and power NPCs of the various classes existing. There is only one wielder of the artifact weapons but that's literally it. That's the only claim to fame. That logic 100% would not apply to how bringing in new classes would be structured. So it has nothing to do with Tinkers or any other class they introduce.

[Triceron]

But again, what exactly makes them a Tinker and not a Hunter?

They are both, because Tinker is just another name for Engineer.

Mekkatorque invented the Mechanostrider, Repair Bots, Gyromatic Micro-Adjustor, and his mech suit. Him being an inventor has been around since the beginning of WoW.

Gazlowe being technically inclined is a fairly recent thing. He was an architect of Orgrimmar, but it was unknown whether he was an inventor or not. Blizzard began making it obvious in HotS, and began showing more of it slowly through multiple WoW expansions. He's not on Mekkatorque's level yet, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Gazlowe beginning to invent stuff in upcoming expansions as the Goblin leader.

Sure, thats fine.

But Gazlowe is still a Tinker and an engineer, and Mekkatorque is still a Tinker and an engineer, and you haven't really proven any difference. There is no lore behind your explanation of inventions when we are shown NPCs like Tinkmaster Overspark having not any inventions of his name either, and is just an engineering trainer.

[Teriz]

Romuul built the Exodar and most of what's on the Vindicaar. The lightforged draenei created the warframes and various incredibly sophisticated weaponry such as anti-air platforms. Kil'jaedan invented and built a fucking interdimensional spaceship. The blood elves have created the Tempest Keep as well as various magitech golems.

Yeah, no. He repaired the Exodar, he didn't create it. The Exodar was part of Tempest Keep, which was a Naaru dimensional ship. Yeah, the Blood Elves didn't create Tempest Keep either...

And the shaman order hall is the ONLY example of that happening. There are still prominent and power NPCs of the various classes existing. There is only one wielder of the artifact weapons but that's literally it. That's the only claim to fame. That logic 100% would not apply to how bringing in new classes would be structured. So it has nothing to do with Tinkers or any other class they introduce.

The point is that the player/adventurer isn't just an ordinary Shaman, Paladin, whatever. So if we're talking about a Tinker class, the player would also not be a run of the mill Tinker either.

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They are both, because Tinker is just another name for Engineer.

Okay, but Gazlowe, Mekkatorque, and the Island Expedition members are clearly not insert class/engineering profession. They're not using any recognizable class abilities, or Engineering items.

Sure, thats fine.

But Gazlowe is still a Tinker and an engineer, and Mekkatorque is still a Tinker and an engineer, and you haven't really proven any difference. There is no lore behind your explanation of inventions when we are shown NPCs like Tinkmaster Overspark having not any inventions of his name either, and is just an engineering trainer.

Well Overspark isn't a Tinker. He's just an engineer.

[Triceron]

Okay, but Gazlowe, Mekkatorque, and the Island Expedition members are clearly not insert class/engineering profession. They're not using any recognizable class abilities, or Engineering items.

That:s because they're NPCs. I mean, Anduin is a Priest who can wear plate and use a 2H sword and he never upgraded to Paladin status. It doesn't mean classes will get what NPCs have.

That doesn't mean we aren't playing priests because we xan't wield a 2h sword or can't wear plate. It just means we don't have access to NPC standards.

[Teriz]

That:s because they're NPCs. I mean, Anduin is a Priest who can wear plate and use a 2H sword and he never upgraded to Paladin status. It doesn't mean classes will get what NPCs have.

That doesn't mean we aren't playing priests because we xan't wield a 2h sword or can't wear plate. It just means we don't have access to NPC standards.

Just because they’re NPCs doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t represent their class. For example, the Demon Hunters in Black Temple had pretty well defined Demon Hunter abilities. Ironically, so did most Monk NPCs. If Tinkers are supposed to be insert class + Engineering, the main NPCs should reflect that. The fact that we’re not seeing that, and are instead repeatedly seeing unique abilities (or Tinker abilities from HotS) should tell us something.

We also have the unused WC3 abilities, which (along with the alchemist hero) remain the only set of hero abilities completely unused by the class lineup.

[Triceron]

Just because they’re NPCs doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t represent their class. For example, the Demon Hunters in Black Temple had pretty well defined Demon Hunter abilities. Ironically, so did most Monk NPCs. If Tinkers are supposed to be insert class + Engineering, the main NPCs should reflect that. The fact that we’re not seeing that, and are instead repeatedly seeing unique abilities (or Tinker abilities from HotS) should tell us something.

We also have the unused WC3 abilities, which (along with the alchemist hero) remain the only set of hero abilities completely unused by the class lineup.

You're right, but then you're not talking about Gnomes and Goblins not having representation, you're talking about wanting a new class for the sake of some NPCs having abilities that you can't use right now.

Thats the core problem with your argument. You are using fallacious arguments like Gnomes not having a class and theme to call their own to justify your own want of a class that has mechs and rockets, when really thats got nothing to do why gnomes are unpopular in the first place.

If the core issue with Gnomes and Goblins is that they don't have mechs and their cameras are set too low, then all we need is to give them new racials like Worgens that gives em mech forms. That's all.

Everything else tech related is covered by Engineering and whatever the core class already provides.

If you want a new Tinker class because you want new abilities not covered by Engineering or other classes, then that should be your message. There is no reason to tie it in with a underplayed race's problem that is unrelated to the Tinker class itself.

No one would have said we needed Demon Hunters because Night Elves and Blood Elves don't have a mutually shared class that represents the demonic subcultures of the two races equally or some bullshit like that. Everyone wants Demon Hunters because they are cool and iconic, period. Any class needs to stand on its own, not be applied as some saving grace to a race's problems of unpopularity.

The Pandaren and the Monk Class are already clear indicators that class and race popularity are not guaranteed simply by having the options available. Polls on here have further indicated this.

[Ielenia]

Then why does the Tinker in WoW literally have 'Engineering Upgrade' as an ability? Because they are effectively one and the same as an Engineer in the lore.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tinker

"Tinkers (or tinkerers and tinkologists) are engineers mostly represented by gnomes, goblins, and dwarves of the Alliance, Horde and the Venture Company."

Dude, nice find. It completely destroys @Teriz's claim that "tinkologists aren't tinkers" when I mentioned there are night elf tinkologists, meaning night elves can be tinkers too.

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You're moving the goalposts. The point was that "Tinker" means Inventor.

I'm sorry, but where's the official source for this obvious headcanon of yours? Where does it say that "tinker = inventor"?

Again, a profession engineer isn't inventing anything, they're just following schematics.

That is objectively false. Many of the items in the "tinkering" sub-section of the engineering profession are acquired through invention. No schematics. On top of that, the Jeeves schematic: it is acquired only through killing all the mechagnomes around Storm Peaks, and the schematic itself is just a gameplay way of saying your character learns how to create the little robot after examining the other robots enough times.

Because a Tinker is a type of engineer. Just like a Paladin and Enhancement Shaman are types of warriors.

Nowhere near close. "Paladins and shamans are types of warriors". Laughable.

Also: "tinker" is a sub-section of engineering, so if we go by that, the engineer is SUPERIOR to the tinker.

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Uh what? Can you provide any examples of another race besides Goblins and Gnomes which use the term?

Here you go.

[Teriz]

You're right, but then you're not talking about Gnomes and Goblins not having representation, you're talking about wanting a new class for the sake of some NPCs having abilities that you can't use right now.

That argument only works if a profession was enough to support that representation. It isn’t. Just like the book of the dead isn’t enough for Necromancer proponents.

Thats the core problem with your argument. You are using fallacious arguments like Gnomes not having a class and theme to call their own to justify your own want of a class that has mechs and rockets, when really thats got nothing to do why gnomes are unpopular in the first place.

The only race (along with Goblins) to not have a class that reflects their own racial lore are also the least chosen races in the game? Surely that must be a coincidence right?

If the core issue with Gnomes and Goblins is that they don't have mechs and their cameras are set too low, then all we need is to give them new racials like Worgens that gives em mech forms. That's all.

And since that has zero chance of ever getting implemented by Blizzard, we’re better off advocating for the class that actually allows the player to pilot a mech. I mean, the idea of having a mech form with no mech associated abilities is pretty dumb. At least Dark Flight and the other racials are associated with a Worgen form in some sense.

Everything else tech related is covered by Engineering and whatever the core class already provides.

Toys and items don’t cover anything a class would cover.

If you want a new Tinker class because you want new abilities not covered by Engineering or other classes, then that should be your message. There is no reason to tie it in with a underplayed race's problem that is unrelated to the Tinker class itself.

No one would have said we needed Demon Hunters because Night Elves and Blood Elves don't have a mutually shared class that represents the demonic subcultures of the two races equally or some bullshit like that. Everyone wants Demon Hunters because they are cool and iconic, period. Any class needs to stand on its own, not be applied as some saving grace to a race's problems of unpopularity.

Where did I say the ONLY reason the Tinker should be included is to help the Goblin/Gnome population? I always said that was ONE of the reasons.

The Pandaren and the Monk Class are already clear indicators that class and race popularity are not guaranteed simply by having the options available. Polls on here have further indicated this.

Yeah, and the Tinker and the Monk are two entirely different situations.

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Nowhere near close. "Paladins and shamans are types of warriors". Laughable.

Enhancement
A totemic warrior who strikes foes with weapons imbued with elemental power. Preferred Weapons: Dual Axes, Maces, Fist Weapons

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ga...aman/elemental

This is the call of the paladin: to protect the weak, to bring justice to the unjust, and to vanquish evil from the darkest corners of the world. These holy warriors are equipped with plate armor so they can confront the toughest of foes, and the blessing of the Light allows them to heal wounds and, in some cases, even restore life to the dead.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/classes/paladin

Also: "tinker" is a sub-section of engineering, so if we go by that, the engineer is SUPERIOR to the tinker.

Pure semantic nonsense. But thanks for sharing.

[jellmoo]

The only race (along with Goblins) to not have a class that reflects their own racial lore are also the least chosen races in the game? Surely that must be a coincidence right?

Except that isn't accurate. Both Forsaken and Worgen lack a class to fit the bulk of their respective racial lore (plague based alchemy and tooth and claw werewolf ferocity).

[Firefall]

Except that isn't accurate. Both Forsaken and Worgen lack a class to fit the bulk of their respective racial lore (plague based alchemy and tooth and claw werewolf ferocity).

This is why if they do Tinker ever, I'm hoping it has racial variants/skins like Paladins did. Even if it is just one or two abilities having different visuals for each race, they wouldn't even need to be the same ability that is always different. Forsaken are very tech savvy, too. Could have IE a flamethrower attack replaced with plague, or a summon drone thing replaced with a mana golem for blood elves, ect. Especially for the Forsaken, I see the Tinker as the best possible way to have the mad plauge alchemist. Many common tinker ideas could easily be made plauge themed.

Meanwhile they should really let worgen feral and guardian druids fight in worgen form if they want to.

[TheRevenantHero]

That argument only works if a profession was enough to support that representation. It isn’t. Just like the book of the dead isn’t enough for Necromancer proponents.



The only race (along with Goblins) to not have a class that reflects their own racial lore are also the least chosen races in the game? Surely that must be a coincidence right?




And since that has zero chance of ever getting implemented by Blizzard, we’re better off advocating for the class that actually allows the player to pilot a mech. I mean, the idea of having a mech form with no mech associated abilities is pretty dumb. At least Dark Flight and the other racials are associated with a Worgen form in some sense.



Toys and items don’t cover anything a class would cover.



Where did I say the ONLY reason the Tinker should be included is to help the Goblin/Gnome population? I always said that was ONE of the reasons.



Yeah, and the Tinker and the Monk are two entirely different situations.

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Enhancement
A totemic warrior who strikes foes with weapons imbued with elemental power. Preferred Weapons: Dual Axes, Maces, Fist Weapons

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ga...aman/elemental




https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/classes/paladin



Pure semantic nonsense. But thanks for sharing.

Funny how you accuse him of semantic nonsense when the vast majority of your argument is ridiculous semantics. He's right. Tinkers ARE a subsection of engineers which would make them inferior. The definition of the word tinker would also support that.

[TriHard]

Why tf are ppl discussing potential new classes at this point, we should've had one in SL but that didn't happen, it could very well be that DH is the last class we're getting.
It's also 2 and a half year until next expansion after SL will release so it's kinda pointless to discuss that kinda shit now.

[Triceron]

That argument only works if a profession was enough to support that representation. It isn’t. Just like the book of the dead isn’t enough for Necromancer proponents.

There is a difference between 'it would be nice if we had a class to represent gnomes' and 'gnomes have no cultural representation'. We should be arguing for the former, not the latter, because the latter implies that gnomes aren't already intelligent mages, cunning rogues, hunters with mecha pets and battle medics, all accompanied by the ever present Engineering profession.

Their entire lore is adapted into the fundamentals of using tech to enhance the different classes they play. Their priest lore is even centered on using science rather than light magic, even if it's purely Holy based from a gameplay perspective.

Again, the core reason they aren't played isn't related to any lack of representation. That is why engineering _doesn't_ need to overstep its boundaries into class mechanics while providing the tech theme. It's acceptable for tech to be an ever-present choice in supporting a class, just like Alchemy is for Goblins or Enchanting is for Blood Elves or Nightborne. Yet even those professions are generally applicable to all races, whereas engineering was defined for Goblins and Gnomes, with sub professions specifically sourcing those races.

As for book of the dead, it's literally just an item, and that is why it's a bad example. It's not a profession or a class or even a talent for that matter. It's an offhand from Vanilla days of WoW that never really got an update. I don't see how that can be equivalent to Gnomes already having access to their cultural theme through Engineering.

You don't play a gnome and you seem to know very little about the immersiveness of engineering. I mean, wouldn't the first step be to try the combo out? And if you don't think it's immersive, then maybe it's because you don't like Gnomes and the tech theme as much as you think you do. And Tinkers honestly wouldn't solve that problem.

Going by WC3 standards, I doubt you ever really played the WC3 Tinker either since you continually make errors of equating it to a Ranged Tank or having all ranged abilities despite the tank form and basic form of the Tinker is and always has been melee.

More and more, it just sounds like you want a playable Mekkatorque like in the one cutscene in Legion, and you're making every excuse in the book to make yourself sound convincing.

[Teriz]

Except that isn't accurate. Both Forsaken and Worgen lack a class to fit the bulk of their respective racial lore (plague based alchemy and tooth and claw werewolf ferocity).

With Forsaken you have Hunters (also for Dark Rangers), Warlocks, and Rogues which all deal with afflictions, Potions, poisons.

With Worgen it’s pretty much open. If you want tooth and claw ferocity there’s Druids. Greymayne in HotS felt quite similar to a Outlaw Rogue.

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Funny how you accuse him of semantic nonsense when the vast majority of your argument is ridiculous semantics. He's right. Tinkers ARE a subsection of engineers which would make them inferior. The definition of the word tinker would also support that.

Except he isn’t right. Mekkatorque for example is certainly not inferior to a standard profession engineer trainer.

[cuafpr]

Necro for me, but that ship sailed with SL i think.

[Teriz]

Necro for me, but that ship sailed with SL i think.

I agree. SL would have been perfect for their introduction. They could have been guides through the world of the dead.

[jellmoo]

With Forsaken you have Hunters (also for Dark Rangers), Warlocks, and Rogues which all deal with afflictions, Potions, poisons.

In which case for Gnomes and Goblins you have hunters which allow you to use tech items and have a mechanimal pet.

It's not particularly fulfilling, right? Then it wouldn't be all that fulfulling for somebody that loves the Forsaken lore and is unable to actually play a massive part of it.

With Worgen it’s pretty much open. If you want tooth and claw ferocity there’s Druids. Greymayne in HotS felt quite similar to a Outlaw Rogue.

The solution to wanting to play a wild and vicious werewolf is to either play as a cat or a pirate? Really?

The only reason you resist so hard against the notion of races like Forsaken or Worgen having a class that fits their racial lore is that it hurts your narrative for the lack of a class being the reason that Gnomes and Goblins are unpopular. The reality is that all four races are in the same boat. You see a ton of cool stuff in game that the race does that the player is unable to do with their respective characters in a meaningful and fulfilling way.

[Ielenia]

Enhancement
A totemic warrior who strikes foes with weapons imbued with elemental power. Preferred Weapons: Dual Axes, Maces, Fist Weapons

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ga...aman/elemental

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/classes/paladin

Oh, wow. "Warrior" in that context does not refer to the "warrior" class, but the general use of the word "warrior" that is synonymous with "fighter", "experienced combatant".

Pure semantic nonsense. But thanks for sharing.

... Oh my god, this is BEYOND HILARIOUS, to avoid using a more apt but rude word, considering what you wrote above is nothing but "pure semantic nonsense."

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Except he isn’t right. Mekkatorque for example is certainly not inferior to a standard profession engineer trainer.

Your unwillingness-- or inability-- to separate lore from game mechanics does not make you any less wrong.