Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[huth]

I mean we watched nearly the entire alliance end game scene collapse in mop for this very reason but ok?

We didn't. We saw it slowly dwindle away over the course of 4 expansions. More than enough time to level up a new character or 20, and there's still enough Mythic raids on Alliance side that Ny'alotha Hall of Fame actually went faster than EP.

[Big Thanks]

On the recent interview

Ion: "Idealy there will never be a guy that says if you are a rogue and you want to PVP definitely dont pick this covenant because is terrible"

Look...im a dreamer IRL and stuff...but was Ion on the interview completely high and out of his mind?
This could be a meme! Someone edit Ion with a blunt on his mouth and with this quote and we are good to go!

I dont even know what to think here...

To say "there will be upsides and downsides AND at the same time "there wont be a guy telling you what to do"
Ion is not this disingenuous...he cant be...

[huth]

A better example to make you understand why you are so wrong is the talent tree. If you play a druid for example, you will pick some talents if you want to tank pve, others if you want to heal mythic +, others for feral BGs and others for moonkin arena. With the current covenant iteration, it's like you pick a talent set-up that fits best your bear pve tanking since that's what the guild needs, and you just do all the rest of the activities with the same or other specs while still using the talent load that is best for bear tanking. Whichever way you cut it, in World of Warcraft in the year 2020, this is a 100% moronic and indefensible system.

Picking an image that fits your view but not the actual system isn't really doing you any favours. What we're actually dealing with is closer to 3-4 talents being set out of 31. That's really not that big a deal, even back in Vanilla.

[Fkiolaris]

Picking an image that fits your view but not the actual system isn't really doing you any favours. What we're actually dealing with is closer to 3-4 talents being set out of 31. That's really not that big a deal, even back in Vanilla.

I am not sure if you are aware of the irony of your comment, but I will guess not... Keep adjusting that image to fit your story when trying to defend this abomination and don't forget to shout "RPG!1!1!!!" while doing so.

[huth]

To say "there will be upsides and downsides AND at the same time "there wont be a guy telling you what to do"
Ion is not this disingenuous...he cant be...

He's not, because that's not what he said.

That's not even what you quoted him as saying.

- - - Updated - - -

I am not sure if you are aware of the irony of your comment, but I will guess not... Keep adjusting that image to fit your story when trying to defend this abomination and don't forget to shout "RPG!1!1!!!" while doing so.

You do realise that you still have the entire base class and specs under that Covenant, and a good part of the Soulbinds is the same across all Covenants? The differences aren't anywhere as big as you seem to imagine them to be.

[Big Thanks]

He's not, because that's not what he said.

That's not even what you quoted him as saying.
.

You didnt watch the interview then

He said exactly what i said.

I had the video on one tab and copy pasted to here.

[Laughingjack]

We didn't. We saw it slowly dwindle away over the course of 4 expansions. More than enough time to level up a new character or 20, and there's still enough Mythic raids on Alliance side that Ny'alotha Hall of Fame actually went faster than EP.

To be honest I wasn't expecting the resurgence of alliance in bfa. Prior they couldn't even get the cutting edge mythic clear achievement done before the next patch.

I am happy about seeing the ally back but it does show just how damaging these small choices are.

- - - Updated - - -

On the recent interview

Ion: "Idealy there will never be a guy that says if you are a rogue and you want to PVP definitely dont pick this covenant because is terrible"

Look...im a dreamer IRL and stuff...but was Ion on the interview completely high and out of his mind?
This could be a meme! Someone edit Ion with a blunt on his mouth and with this quote and we are good to go!

I dont even know what to think here...

To say "there will be upsides and downsides AND at the same time "there wont be a guy telling you what to do"
Ion is not this disingenuous...he cant be...

The future is set we will simply ready ourselves for it. It is all that can be done and all that will done. Thus is the end game players burden.

[Davryn]

It's only a real problem if they screw up the balance. For any combination of spec and activity (arena, mythic+, raids, etc.) there should not be a choice that is always clearly optimal.

In arena, the ideal choice should depend on arena comp.
In mythic+, the ideal choice should depend on affixes.
In raids, the ideal choice should depend on the type of encounter.

It shouldn't be so hard to balance them well enough for the above three statements to be true

[huth]

You didnt watch the interview then

He said exactly what i said.

I had the video on one tab and copy pasted to here.

And then misrepresented it the second time, yes. He didn't say there will never be somebody telling you what to do. That's pretty much the entire point of guides, after all.

He just said he would prefer if there wasn't a time where people tell you to never use Covenant x for activity y because it sucks.

[Laughingjack]

It's only a real problem if they screw up the balance. For any combination of spec and activity (arena, mythic+, raids, etc.) there should not be a choice that is always clearly optimal.

In arena, the ideal choice should depend on arena comp.
In mythic+, the ideal choice should depend on affixes.
In raids, the ideal choice should depend on the type of encounter.

It shouldn't be so hard to balance them well enough for the above three statements to be true

I mean I can point out how hard this is to balance with raiding alone never mind the other 2.

If you have the whole raiding running self rez can you then cheat a heavy aoe mechanic by simply having dps die and self rez for free?

In berserker fights with brutal last stages is there a point where the avenging spirit can simply kill the boss as you stop healing dps to cheese the fight?

Never mind specific abilities. Just as bfa was poisoned by terrible poorly thought out alternative progression paths SL will share that blight sadly.

[huth]

I mean I can point out how hard this is to balance with raiding alone never mind the other 2.

If you have the whole raiding running self rez can you then cheat a heavy aoe mechanic by simply having dps die and self rez for free?

In berserker fights with brutal last stages is there a point where the avenging spirit can simply kill the boss as you stop healing dps to cheese the fight?

Put those fights right after one another and you already achieved the balance in question.

Hell, make it the same fight.

Besides, raid bosses are likely to just kill the pods along with the players, so that's a risky strat at best.

[Laughingjack]

Put those fights right after one another and you already achieved the balance in question.

Hell, make it the same fight.

Besides, raid bosses are likely to just kill the pods along with the players, so that's a risky strat at best.

Depends if one of the fights is one of the road block bosses or not. It is more rare then not to kill one hard boss then just down 2-3 in the same week. This problem is magnified if one covenant lets you cheese the last boss that more often then not is the hardest. I can easily see it removing a whole stage of a fight.

[Big Thanks]

And then misrepresented it the second time, yes. He didn't say there will never be somebody telling you what to do. That's pretty much the entire point of guides, after all.

He just said he would prefer if there wasn't a time where people tell you to never use Covenant x for activity y because it sucks.

He said exactly what i put beween "..." quotes.

Yes, it can also read, if translated softly:
There wont be a guy telling you to not use covenant x for activity y because it sucks

Now tell me if you truly believe this is true? "There wont be a guy", OMEGALUL

He also said there will be "upsides and downsides to covenants" on the same interview.

[Laughingjack]

He said exactly what i put beween "..." quotes.

Yes, it can also read, if translated softly:
There wont be a guy telling you to not use covenant x for activity y because it sucks

Now tell me if you truly believe this is true? "There wont be a guy", OMEGALUL

He also said there will be "upsides and downsides to covenants" on the same interview.

I mean.. isn't this what everyone figured out months ago when covenants were first mentioned?

History repeats itself and those who point it out generally are disbelieved.

[Gaidax]

It's really down to what people want to do with their game.

Not sure what's so hard to understand there. People here are so laser focused on their feast or famine thing, that it's almost silly. The guy who said that vast majority of non crazies will treat covenant choice like class choice is spot on, because nobody in their right mind will be sitting there trying to find that optimal class/covenant combo for a shitty weekly M+10 run.

Same goes for guilds - "man we raided with you for 3 years, but you picked Night Fae for fairy wings, so /gkick". Yeah... ok.

[Laughingjack]

It's really down to what people want to do with their game.

Not sure what's so hard to understand there. People here are so laser focused on their feast or famine thing, that it's almost silly. The guy who said that vast majority of non crazies will treat covenant choice like class choice is spot on, because nobody in their right mind will be sitting there trying to find that optimal class/covenant combo for a shitty weekly M+10 run.

Same goes for guilds - "man we raided with you for 3 years, but you picked Night Fae for fairy wings, so /gkick". Yeah... ok.

We get it the mid tier isn't effected... no one here is claiming they will be so I don't know why you harp on it with every post.

[Gaidax]

We get it the mid tier isn't effected... no one here is claiming they will be so I don't know why you harp on it with every post.

Here's the thing though. High Tier is not affected either.

The only place where this shit will be REAL is ultra cutting edge activities (Top 50 guilds, top X pro level M+ teams, bleeding edge PvP) which are like 1% domain if that. People there will do what they did since time immemorial and will pick the BEST option and it's fine, that will be the expectation to participate there, because it's a closed club thing to begin with.

[Laughingjack]

Here's the thing though. High Tier is not affected either.

The only place where this shit will be REAL is ultra cutting edge activities (Top 50 guilds, top X pro level M+ teams, bleeding edge PvP) which are like 1% domain if that. People there will do what they did since time immemorial and will pick the BEST option and it's fine, that will be the expectation to participate there, because it's a closed club thing to begin with.

I mean I can understand someone being naive enough to believe that.... its just I am not sold you are. Even if it didn't make a difference what they choose will become standard till any deviation is a rarity.

To quote a blizzard quest npc " I've heard this tale before"

[Gaidax]

I mean I can understand someone being naive enough to believe that.... its just I am not sold you are. Even if it didn't make a difference what they choose will become standard till any deviation is a rarity.

To quote a blizzard quest npc " I've heard this tale before"

Kekw... I think you need to burst out of your bubble a bit. Vast majority of WoW players don't give a poppycock about what's optimal and shit.

The whole thing is done for that majority of players who don't give a shit about that crap, but do like characters with individuality.

[huth]

He said exactly what i put beween "..." quotes.

[...]

Now tell me if you truly believe this is true? "There wont be a guy", OMEGALUL

No, that's you misquoting Ion. Ion said "Ideally there will never be" not "There will never be". The word you're leaving out is important and changes the sentence from a declarative statement to a goal they're trying to achieve.