Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[ravenmoon]

I want an Astromancer skin for Mages when they ever introduce class skins.

That would be awesome, I even hoped that maybe tehy would re-skin the shaman class as an Astromancer for elves, but blizzard would n't rekin clases... if they did though, we could get lots of new classes, special unique race ones as well, missing playstyles in elves like shaman could be filled with a re-skinnned one


I don't know why they haven't done thissooner, like just call the spells something else, give them different visual effects and colours... but that would be so Night elfy. Nightborne too can have this, as wellas thebloood and void elves.

[Venziir]

We need an "Eld subforum" at this point

[Mace]

First of all Ardenaso is just stating speculation as fact (the same thing you're accusing me of doing). There is nothing in the lore to suggest the elves rexxar killed were highborne, I do agree you can (based on the surrounding circumstances) draw the conclusion they might be highborne. But isn't your argument meant to be we're not allowed to use anything that isn't written in black and white?

You are (intentionally or unintentionally) misunderstanding what I am saying;
I never said (or even implied I believed) that the "highborne were invented for the blood elves".
When I said they "pulled the highborne out of their asses in cata for Night elf mages" I didn't mean they literally invented the idea of highborne in cata. I was referencing the fact in vanilla the Shen'dralar were a tiny population that was naturally decreasing because they couldn't syphon energy effectively from the demon anymore, then the Horde killed almost all of them. Resultantly the idea that there were enough left to be a viable population to be the player mages is silly and obviously blizzard to 'massage the numbers'.

I'm relieved for both our sakes that I mis-understood you there, I've gotten use to hearing ridiculous things, so didn't give you the benefit of the doubt. I sometimes am bothered that others don't give what I say similar, only to have done so with you.

For what its worth, apologies and thanks for clearing that up.

This is the problem with how you analyse lore. You are taking things written at different times (in our world) and events that have taken place at different times (in warcraft) and trying to smash them into this simultaneous convergence so everything you believe was always true.

Like do you honestly believe Blizzard planned priestess of the moon and druid abilities that invoked the moon in WCIII to be arcane spells, while simultaneously writing those groups as fearing arcane magic? The reason that is true is because the lore changed over time, you can't go back and retroactively apply that to WCIII like blizzard has been planning the lore 15 years in advance since day one.

That interview you are holding up like it's DNA evidence is a perfect example of how you're making the facts fit your theory;
You're assuming that because the dev says the nelves are a combo of wood elves and drow that he means Blizzard always intended 50/50 nature arcane split in WCIII because now we know there are still some highborne alive.
In reality, it means they took aspects of drow (matriarchal, aggressive, purple) and wood elves (hippies, trees, nature) and mixed them and look at that WCIII Night elves are purple matriarchal aggressive nature-focused hippies who live in trees.

Look, I have to go based on what they have said, not just there, but many times elsewhere and what they show. When I think of dark elves, powerful magic users is the first most thing, the drow matriarchal society is one of them, but it's not the best of them. I have no reason to doubt the arcane presence as being that either because it is present quite strongly in the Night elf race story, it is also the best version of arcane prowress too I have seen written in any dark elf rendition just as the height and power of nature usage is the best aspect of the forest elf I have seen displayed in a fantasy genre. In the Night elves they literally did exactly that. THe problem with your assertion here is it is looking to avoid or deny the legitimacy of the arcane part of the Night elves - but it's right there in the lore, in the history, it is there currently too in the current era, and they showed us groups that didn't go all forest elf too. This makes sense.

I have no lore-based reason to doubt the arcane aspect of the Night elves.

As for your question as to whether I honestly believe blizzard planned priestess of the moon abilities that invoked the moon in WC3 (and actually it is the stars that are invoked, and still are in WoW) to be arcane beforehand? Read carefully ALL my response.
I don't know, I have to go based on what they actually showed us.

e.g. in WC3, when they introduced night elves, they did so as a race that invented magic - "the first to study magic and let it loose in the world", they put them as a race that had mastered using arcane magic fully and civilization, and had to abandon it to prevent the legion returning..

This is from the WC3 manual:





In WC3, Moonwells were arcane magic wells, as was the WEll of Eternity, a lot more detail on what this meant came in the WotA trilogy shortly after WC3 - we are later told was commissioned during WC3's production and only eventually finished after WoW's release. It was not an arsepull, but completely intentional.

STarfall from the priests makes sense from a race called the Kaldorei, arcane magic ban was explicitly told to us was in place to prevent the Legion's returning, this was the fear behind its use. Once the Legion returns, there is no indication of reticence or prohibition to humans, elves or anyone using arcane magic, and the priests use Starfall. In WotA, the night elves aren't fighting or condemning their soldiers for using arcane magic, most of them use it to fight the Legion. WotA says it becomes a problem because they believe using the Well of Eternity lights up Azeroth as beacon in the twisting nether whenever they use its arcane power for spells. Using the Well Illidan reformed is the only known way of calling the Legion back.

Conclusion?
It seems a very logical reason, to prohibit the use, nothing about hating the magic itself or wanting nothing to do, the fear is clearly not wanting the legion to return, so preventing any means necessary.

I suspect fans have missed the detail and over read it, they interprete the fear to be some arcanophobic aspect of Night elves. Meanwhile the Long vigil era, has the Night elves in that group making full use of the arcane power of the Well of Eternity through Moonwells, boosting the land, healing properties, (food and mana) - hardly surprising from the arcane given that we are told directly it is responsible for giving them immortal lives, enhanced intelligence, greater stature/strength and that their purple skin is a result from that connection. In an article on the eyes of elves on the official website after TBC, blizzard revealed to us the eyes of the Night elves are glowing silver because of the internal power they are filled with from the Well of Eternity, power they do not use for spells - for this reason the Thalassian elves scorn that group for not utilising their power but effectively acting in fear and superstition (which they would since they hate them.

Blizzard in Warcraft MMORPG - also give the magical type for spells like starfall, starfire, Moonfire, Starshards, it's all arcane, it didn't have to be, they could have made them all Astral, spellstorm, anything else. Furthermore they don't ever tell us Night elves can't use arcane spells, they just tell us it was banned during the Long vigil to prevent the Legion returning, the Legion returns during WC3.

Rather than assume blizzard just doesn't know what they're doing, or quickly for want of a better use, I suspect in this case they know exactly what they are doing. Frankly the priesthood and druids using arcane based spells makes sense given who the Night elves are. Children of the Stars, with an arcane legacy and core.

THe Long vigil has ended, and we only see these spells in use in a post long vigil world. Secondly, we know the source of these spells to not be the WEll of Eternity, they come directly from the Moon, the stars and Elune - as such to me it makes sense that using these even if it happened during the long vigil wouldn't be a problem - because the problem was using the Well of Eternity and arcane works from Azseroth sources that cause Azeroth to light up - this is the conclusion fans can draw - but we are not outrightly told.

We can largely go on what we are shown, blizzard doesn't abate in giving Night elf priests arcane spells or druids - new druid spells still have some arcane ones, even after astral class was introduced. Furthermore, we keep seeing Tyrande using arcane spells too, they look to come from either the moon, the stars or Elune, but they're unmistakenly arcane.


The only reason people think blizzard has made a mistake is because they think Night elves can't touch the arcane - but the mere fact of Moonwells and their use, the explanation directly given of the ban being on SPELL PRACTICE of the arcane using the well of Eternity is all there. WHat was stated brifly in the WC3 manual was fleshed out in far greater detail in the War of the Ancients trilogy.

Just because some fans think it conflicts or is not right, doesn't mean blizzard does, the information is there, the Night elves are enigmatic, they have a habit of simply not spelling everything out for us, but rather showing us, we can draw conclusions based on what we are told to settle many of of our disbutes.


Question you must ask yourself then, is whether the way you think about this might be wrong. Many players, incl Ravenmoon use to think like that about Nelves, but every player that has taken the time to actually look at what they're been shown, will find it hard to reach any other conclusion but change their perception on the Night elf in the light of what the lore actually says, rather than impose on them constructs from other fantasies. Some I notice can't handle Night elves being anything but Wood elves. There is no logical reason for this except in their brain, 1 race must be about this thing. And another about that. And that there can be several things to fantasy races is beyond them - do you know why? because in most DnD fantasy races, they are about one thing. This is by far the standard in the genre. Blizzard are exceptional by not making their races about 1 thing.. and by doing that, their races have a lot more depth and feel more real to many of us.

But what is the truth you want us to know? The highborne exist? You can play a night elf mage? Night elves liked being mages 10k years ago? Night elves were trolls mutated by the arcane energies of the well of eternity.
Ok, everyone acknowledges that because it's true.

All I have ever said is that this supposition; That merely because the highborne exist that they presently have this huge impact on night elf culture now because they did in the past and your evidence for this is this anachronistic application of old lore to new facts to try and imply blizzard planned it this way all along is an overreach.

I'm just mythbusting mostly here, and presenting things about the arcane and night elves I have noticed certain posters don't know..given how they can't handle it. Other Night elf threads, like the customisation thread in Shadowlands and other topics were turning into flame wars between them and some NElf fans, so rather than keep derailing every topic, I created this one to be the primary place they could have this discussion.

however I came armed with a presentation of those facts, and details on what my argument was, and what I was saying. Did you not notice how some thought I was saying arcane practice is widespread in Night elf society? This is what they thought I meant by Night elves have an arcane core. I had to correct one by re-quoting myself, something that wouldn't have been necessary if he had read what I first wrote and understood what I was trying to say. Did you notice another come on and say everything I wrote was headcanon? Yes, all the facts you have just stated here, apparently are all headcanon - either he is trolling, or just didn't read, and is exactly the sort of person this thread was written for.


Some interprete this as me going overboard to push the arcane element of the Night elves. They mistake my intention, the frequency with which I bring it up makes it seem so, I'll give them that, but if they pay closer attention, it is often in respond to people come out right with statements that "night elves are wood elves" or "Night elves can't use the arcane" , "night elves aren't good at the arcane" , "Night elves can't or shouldn't be highborne", "Night elves should have cities or arcane magic because they abandoned it" - I mean, I can't help but answer those statements and collect evidence for them to see by recalling things in the lore to them. One had the audacity to tell me what I was saying wasn't valid without direct quote references and sources - I literally had to point to him the interview snippet in the OP, then list the sources the information I posted came from - yes.. THAT stubborn.

Now what I am not sure of is why it matters to me so much? I got waded into this Night elf discussion nearly 10 years ago in a spat with Ravenmoon, I guess I am one of the personality types that if I know the truth about something I cannot stay quiet if I notice errors, I will speak up, I guess I also write a lot which means that when I cross paths with similar slows, you will get litany of essays, but I think because this was one area that kept coming up, and it kept grazing on my nerves, I kept getting sucked into it. So much so I changed my avatar and affections from orcs to Night elves, cos it seemed Night elves were the underdogs and mis-understood - by what I realised were a band of hardcore blood elf fans on this forum that have been dictating how people should interprete the Night elves since they switched their affections and loyalties to the horde with the release of the Blood elves in TBC.

Now not all blood elf fans are like this, but there are a handful of particularly vocal ones, and I have discerned they hate the alliance elves, getting anything they particularly like. Despite reasoning with them,showing proofs pointing out, they always fight night elf fans who ask for more arcane relted updates - often telling them that Nighte lves shouldn't have the arcane, theyshouldn't have citeis, they shouldn't have any of the stuff, because this is what blood elves (and now Nightborne ) have - basically, the horde has this (because we all know Nightborne are horde night elves). It is all faction based.

They phrase it in a manner to make it look like the horde should have this identity in the elves, while the alliance should have the poor, feral, non-magical elf - is literally what they are saying - and it's b/s, not only have neither the alliance or Night elves and high elves NEVER been that, to phrase it as an identity distinction is something that plays to their desires and is not what blizzard does with races. What makes them think Night elf fans don't want to see their pre-sundering cities or at least one available and don't like the descritiptions? Or don't want their elves as magical and powerful in both the arcane and nature and the priesthood - what makes them think night elf fans only like their elves feral, ferocious, savage, when the race they've fall in love with and spent 20 years reading about has so much more to it. This is partisan conflict in the fans, and the night elf fanbase is on the losing side, because they are smaller and less vocal (if you've been on forums as long as I have)

When was there anything wrong with Night elves having more than forests? When did the highborne or a night elf city every have to interfere with druids being druids in a forest and having your forest elf side? It never did, and it doesn't, nor does it have to.. yet the way they go on, you'd think fans who like the arcane side of the Night elves want the Night elves to be ALL about that. Yet not once have I seen a night elf highborne or arcane civilization or a fan that likes night elf pre-sundering city architecture ever want the removal of druids and the forests. Not once. So why do these people go on like that? Partisan. They don't want the alliance elves looking or being as good as theirs, or even having better things. THey were very happy when the Nightborne went horde for that reason. Yet the lore gave night elves the greater arcane mastery, the greater civilization, the greater nature mastery - because the Night elf was designed to be the original elf, a full race, and therefore given a greater measure of those things in their race. It's no biggie, Vrykul are greater in many of the key attributes humans have, it really serves no purpose but to give races and groups their identities, cos when it comes down to actual fighting, it's the plot that determines the winner bottom line, not how much stats or features your race is packed with.

But players want bragging rights, so if the Night elves get greater arcane stuff, and cities, they get jealous, never mind this has been part of the Night elf lore and we know they have achieved, have the mastery, expertise and knowledge to establish greater in that department - it's in their lore, the opposition is purely because I don't want their elves to be better than mine.

yet as Raven once pointed out, magical kingdoms, forests and cities, beauty and grace - these are the things elf fans covet the most. It's what draws them to playing the elf races, what ever makes them think night elf fans are going to be okay to see blood elves get the more beautiful models, the more beautiful cities, the more enchanted forests and magical capabilities. and be okay with it. I fully agree that the demand for high elves is high because of how poorly progressed and refined they made the night elf.

Don't get me wrong, at the time the night elf was the best, but they did the blood elf better in TBC in every department, better model, better magical city, better magical forest, better rangers, better magic users, and every encounter the two met the blood elves have destroyed the Night elves. The 6.0 model updates, the night elves ended up looking worse in the eyes of many than their classic models, not better - watch how the cries for high elves went up. Then finally a night elf civilization city came and it was stunning, but look where it went? Even though the Nightborne were clearly a night elven sub race group, based on night elf lore - look where they went, and look how adamantly blood elf fans argued how "more blood elven" the Nightborne were which is absolute garbage if you know the lore, but they fel they had to, because they greatly feared the alliance getting it, and would hae been JEALOUS.

Human emotions are.

[DemonHunter18]

@Mace problem is, Blizzard has long forgotten about WC3 and retconned most of it to do WoW.

[Mace]

@Mace problem is, Blizzard has long forgotten about WC3 and retconned most of it to do WoW.

Not sure I follow, what exactly did they retcon?

What I noticed was Night elves went from cool and dangerous to whipping boys. Almost like the benevolent nature we could actually see for the first time in classic (absent from WC3 b/c that was a war event - and no one's normal countenance is apparent there) was mis-understood by new writers in cataclysm or whoever wrote the cata storylines for the zones to mean night elves were whipping boys.

Aside from that, neglect and underuse - instead of taking time on them they were filler NPCs in Stromwind and alliance activities to just "show face", they were nerfed in terms of immortality, racial fighting prowress and powers - we don't see night elves using any spectacular powers or abilities when we meet them in most of wow (unlike Warcraft 3), no power of the Well of eternity or world trees - in fact, the first time we see night elves powerful are the Demon hunters, then in Legion where we see Prince Farondis, Thaon the Feral arch druid, the Moonguard, Korvas - then Illidan and Maiev - see how easy it was to list the Night elves that look powerful -

In BFA, Tyrande looks powerful for the first time ever in the 8.1 Night warrior quest line, and Malfurion actually looks dangerous in the cinematic.

Notice how all of these are from Legion onward, showing you how neglected and nerfed Night elves have been - is this what you meant?

[DemonHunter18]

Not sure I follow, what exactly did they retcon?

What I noticed was Night elves went from cool and dangerous to whipping boys. Almost like the benevolent nature we could actually see for the first time in classic (absent from WC3 b/c that was a war event - and no one's normal countenance is apparent there) was mis-understood by new writers in cataclysm or whoever wrote the cata storylines for the zones to mean night elves were whipping boys.

Aside from that, neglect and underuse - instead of taking time on them they were filler NPCs in Stromwind and alliance activities to just "show face", they were nerfed in terms of immortality, racial fighting prowress and powers - we don't see night elves using any spectacular powers or abilities when we meet them in most of wow (unlike Warcraft 3), no power of the Well of eternity or world trees - in fact, the first time we see night elves powerful are the Demon hunters, then in Legion where we see Prince Farondis, Thaon the Feral arch druid, the Moonguard, Korvas - then Illidan and Maiev - see how easy it was to list the Night elves that look powerful -

In BFA, Tyrande looks powerful for the first time ever in the 8.1 Night warrior quest line, and Malfurion actually looks dangerous in the cinematic.

Notice how all of these are from Legion onward, showing you how neglected and nerfed Night elves have been - is this what you meant?

most of the events that happened (and character descriptions) in WotA have been changed.

and yeah, from cool and dangerous to being whimps.

they should just give them back immortality.

maybe they won't be pussies then.

I didn't get some big vibes from Malfurion and Tyrande in BfA tbh.

[Mace]

most of the events that happened (and character descriptions) in WotA have been changed.

and yeah, from cool and dangerous to being whimps.

they should just give them back immortality.

maybe they won't be pussies then.

I didn't get some big vibes from Malfurion and Tyrande in BfA tbh.

I would like them to have immortality back, but it wouldn't make much difference if blizzard keep showing them as whipping boys and the "poor" elf group.

I want immortality back b/c I felt it was one of the most magical feeling things about the night elves and one of the simplest but distinguishing factors about them from the "other elves". It helped characterise them as the original elves quite markedly, showing that the Thalassians truly had lost something valuable because of the exile they could never be - it also helps make their dislike (high elves) and hatred (blood elves) for Night elves more meaningful. However, there are people that will oppose night elves getting any improvement whatsoever, especially ones that show them off as cool. Regardless of what you suggest. Especially ones that make them fit the Elf racial type more - i.e. more magical, high fantasy etc - why do you think some are so bent on feral Night elves (most of them are blood elf fans, not all though, but the Belf fans are smart, they have some NElf fans believing that magical elves has never been the night elves and that this is not NIght el ves, recasting WC3 in the light of Grom's statement - lol - nevermind that what WC3 really shows is night elves are dangerous and powerful - you don't actually see savagery from them, you do see a ruthless edge.


The pure feral race they imagine has never been the night elf in lore or game, and they should realise you don't call a race you want to be savage and feral Night elf, you have orcs, trolls, Worgen fitting that. Alas I am full of sighs right now.

I have come to believe that most Night elf fans wanting Wc3 Night elves are actually wanting night elves shown as powerful and strong - horde Belf fans opposed to magical and beautiful night elves use that opportunity to link powerful night elves to savagery and pure rural existence. Forest dwelling is part of the Night elves, their racial story doesn't paint it as something they look down on nor as some devolution animalistic backwards step - that is people mis-representing themo r mis-interpreting it because they see forest and rural and they think backward - the arrogant city types of Europe and the U.S have this mindset, they look down on "country" bumpkins as being lesser, more stupid, they throw things like "less educated " around, not understanding that for some people it is a choice, not that they aren't capable of building great cities and harnessing great technology - I mean afterall, all city folk came from country folk and the race hasn't changed.

They do this because they want their elf group to have the best things, and they hate the alliance simply because they support the horde (think of men with football teams they just support but don't work or play for, and how they get possessive over them to the extent on trash talking, opposing every positive word opposite fans have to say.



In game druidic night elves wouldn't perceive themselves such, nor would the priestesses who had to live without temples and cities for 10k years because of their mission and the lack of arcane practice in their society to rebuild what was fallen. Yet we see not all Night leves are priests and druids, and some night elves ofc definitely prefer cities, nad never stopped using arcane magic, some operate in the high civilization mode of the pre-sundering era, and are just termporrarily out of a city they mean to claim back or are still living in one (Nightborne).

Long and short, is you have many types of Night elves that fit into the fantasy tht has been created for the race, ranging from great arcane types in great cities to great nature types in magical forests, female warrior types, femalepreist types and edgy demon empowered/hating types - that is there set up.

In game allows you to play as any of these types, which ever or how many of them you like. You have the lore of the race to excite you, whether you choose your loyalties to be with the Darnassians or imagine it elsewhere, a lone ranger, a Moonguard, an Illidari, a non-Darnassian druid like the Cenarion Circle druids can be etc.. These are the fantasies for night elves.

Notice how distinctive the fantasy is for a Highborne night elf, or a demon hunter Illidari night elf, or a night elf hunter or female warrior/hunter, a night elf priest, and while perhaps the warden comes closest to the Night elf rogues, even a non-warden rogue like night elf can fit into the theme. The only one that doesn't seem to have a defined fantasy or place carved out for it is the Night elf DK, because DKs have nothing to do with Night elves, and the only reason night elves can be DKs is because the Lich King was raising fallen warriors wherever he met them, and your hero is one of them that he found and raised to serve him. This is how you can become a DK, notice how there is no army of undead night elves tied to the Dk, tehre is an army of undead night elves now, in Black Rook Hold, thanks to the Legion, blizzard could use this to generate a fantasy and lore for the Night elf DK connected to the Night elf race. I remember reading that very suggestion on here.

I didn't get some big vibes from Malfurion and Tyrande in BfA tbh.

curious s to why you didn't, was it because, like most fans you felt it was rather pathetic and that the Night elves were owed a lot more than that? Were you disappointed when one dev remarked the night elves had got their pay back and had been compensated because of the Darkshore warfront and thought pfft, just this? TO make up for all that crap since cataclysm?

[DemonHunter18]

.curious s to why you didn't, was it because, like most fans you felt it was rather pathetic and that the Night elves were owed a lot more than that? Were you disappointed when one dev remarked the night elves had got their pay back and had been compensated because of the Darkshore warfront and thought pfft, just this? TO make up for all that crap since cataclysm?

Probably since I don't care much about the lore in general since Legion so I didn't feel a thing.

Maybe Malfurion was a little threatening but that's it.

[ravenmoon]

e.g. in WC3, when they introduced night elves, they did so as a race that invented magic - "the first to study magic and let it loose in the world", they put them as a race that had mastered using arcane magic fully and civilization, and had to abandon it to prevent the legion returning..

This is from the WC3 manual:

In WC3, Moonwells were arcane magic wells, as was the WEll of Eternity, a lot more detail on what this meant came in the WotA trilogy shortly after WC3 - we are later told was commissioned during WC3's production and only eventually finished after WoW's release. It was not an arsepull, but completely intentional.

STarfall from the priests makes sense from a race called the Kaldorei, arcane magic ban was explicitly told to us was in place to prevent the Legion's returning, this was the fear behind its use. Once the Legion returns, there is no indication of reticence or prohibition to humans, elves or anyone using arcane magic, and the priests use Starfall. In WotA, the night elves aren't fighting or condemning their soldiers for using arcane magic, most of them use it to fight the Legion. WotA says it becomes a problem because they believe using the Well of Eternity lights up Azeroth as beacon in the twisting nether whenever they use its arcane power for spells. Using the Well Illidan reformed is the only known way of calling the Legion back.

Funny, how some of the people who ask for WC3 night elves don't want them to be magical, yet they are very. Also it's the very same people that intentionally misconstrue the reason the Night elves ban the arcane - though it's stated here quite clearly.

I mean, what do they expect once the Legion returns? For night elves to continue banning something they only banned to prevent a return? To continue to stay in isolation hidden from the rest of the world? Do they think that the Night elves' history is purely there for the blood elves?

But ofc, only a blood elf fan would think that the everything is about them, and that the other elf race is only there to feed their fantasy and set them up. And only the most hardcore fanatics would mindlessly be against aspects of the Night elves that are quite clearly Night elven.

[Tuor]

(unlike Warcraft 3),

Well, if i remember well, that doesn't happen in WC3, the only magical NElf mobs there are the druids and dryads. The druids use nature magic... Even Tyrande uses mostly thrown weapons.

in fact, the first time we see night elves powerful are the Demon hunters, then in Legion where we see Prince Farondis, Thaon the Feral arch druid, the Moonguard, Korvas - then Illidan and Maiev - see how easy it was to list the Night elves that look powerful

Pick any country you wish has an example, saying the education levels for a specific are low, doesn't mean scientists don't exist. Same thing to NElfs, those other NElfs that use non nature magic, are, or Highborne, or uncomon like Ilidian.

The reason why NElfs banned magic, and become a separated faction was because arcane magic almost destroyed Azeroth. But yes, some Highborne are still the same race has NElfs, others turned into the Naga and other elf races.

I've always played NElf, both in WC3 and WoW, and i actually enjoy their caracterisation, if you want magic, get a gay elf instead.

[Mace]

Well, if i remember well, that doesn't happen in WC3, the only magical NElf mobs there are the druids and dryads. The druids use nature magic... Even Tyrande uses mostly thrown weapons.

Did you notice Tyrande fighting with her fists in Suramar invasion - I had to /roll eyes

I wasn't exclusively referring to magical abilities, just anything powerful which you see in hero units - but the priestesses use Starfall for example which is arcane, druids Tranquility nature, the DH unites empowered abilities - both physical and magical. But truly what I was trying to illustrate was how you saw Night elves coming off as powerful. Getting trees to fight for you too is also quite remarkable

I know in the MMO it's slightly different, the fact that the player charcter can be powerful means the race can be, but not much is shown in the MMO, in cata quests the Night elf npcs are mostly useless and beaten, I happen to play both sides, and it's incredible how stupidly powerful the horde hero is and the horde NPCs you meet along the way.

Pick any country you wish has an example, saying the education levels for a specific are low, doesn't mean scientists don't exist. Same thing to NElfs, those other NElfs that use non nature magic, are, or Highborne, or uncomon like Ilidian.

The reason why NElfs banned magic, and become a separated faction was because arcane magic almost destroyed Azeroth. But yes, some Highborne are still the same race has NElfs, others turned into the Naga and other elf races.

I've always played NElf, both in WC3 and WoW, and i actually enjoy their caracterisation, if you want magic, get a gay elf instead.

No friend, the reasons the Long Vigil Nelves banned it was to prevent the Legion's return - read the WC3 excerpt from its manual I linked above, then go read the end of the Sundering novel. It really is quite clear. Although I'd advice reading the whole thing.

The Legion destroyed their civilization, and it wasn't using magic that destroyed the world, it was destroying the Well of eternity to beat the Legion that did that. Still, the reason Nordrassil is grown and the practice of the arcane is banned, is to prevent anyone from using the Well to call back the legion or drawing its attention back to Azeroth because that's what using the Well odes, it lights Azeroth up as a beacon in the twisting nether. Nordrassil hid the power signature of the well and controlled the follow restricting anyone who wasn't directly connected from utilising it. The Night elves stopped anyone from coming near Hyjal, Ashenvale forest is the boundary, to stop people from discovering the Well of Eternity and possibly magical usage ALL so the Legion would not be drawn.

The Legion is entire reason for the Long Vigil. What vigil do you think is been held there? What are they watching for? This isn't life as normal for the night elves - so people who think that the long vigil is the way night elves are don't understand the story, the Long vigil is mission time, they paying for their sins and taking responsibility for what they caused, they abandon civilization and life as normal. What is that? No making families, babies, trade, exciting visions of the future and prosperity and increase..none of that. It's war, watching, hunting down rogue magic users, satyrs and others who are trying to contact their masters, suppressing the use of arcane magic so that no a peak gets through to the legion. What happens once that mission ends, then the things they abandoned, like civilization, arcane magic use, interact with others those start returning - it's logical, expected and its exciting if you love the group to see how they will develop. But if you like the old way, blizzard didn't change how the druids of the Cenarion circle operate, the nation changes, but you can still experience the Long vigil culture in the druids, and the pre-sundering culture as is in the Nightborne. But the new Daranssin society has a mixture of many elements as they build a new feature involving elements from the past and new ones they meet along the way of overcoming new threats and challenges.

Just a quick observation I picked up from the WotA trilogy and the earlier official website encylopedia pages, as far as the Night elves realise, the Well of Eternity is the main way magic can be used. I don't think they relaised that the well's implosion later meant others could use magic in the atmosphere, or maybe they did and that's why the druids were suppressing it. I know the High elves magical use was shielded by the Ban'dinoriel, so no one outside Quel'thalas could tell. And there was no other large magical source aside from the Well of Eternity than the one in Quel'thalas. The Nightwell was under an impenetrable dome, we know nothing could penetrate it, and the magic in Eldre'thalas was ingeniously utilised through siphohoning and ppylon masks, the celver Shen'dralar 's methodlogy clearly made their magical flow undetectable. But these are 3 highborne based groups, that successfully flew under that radar.

The druids meanwhile were spending 1,000s of years in hibernation, working in the Emerald dream with the green dragonflight to guide the evolution of the world. They weren't making babies with the women and doing civilization. We know most of the druid population was vastly male, (we use to think 100 % male -but a soft retcon or rather later detail changed that), most of the females were upholding the society.

It wasn't life as normal.

I've always played NElf, both in WC3 and WoW, and i actually enjoy their caracterisation, if you want magic, get a gay elf instead.

Well I've liked night elves for a long time, I have no problem with the druidic characterisation, nor the priestly characterisation, nor the arcane characterisation or the demon fel hunter charterisation.

What makes you think I have a problem with it? But it seems you have a problem with magical characterisation in Night elves.

You my friend appear to be one of the Nelf fans who need to realise that Night elves being magical doesn't stop you from playing your feral night elf hunter or feral druid if that's what you like. Do you think blood elves being magical stops you from playing a blood elf hunter or warrior? or somehow makes the Farstriders and Silvermoon guard somehow not blood elves?

Do you think magical night elves, whether nature, arcane, fel or divine would cancel out the non magical ones? ofc not. Those who like magical night elves have them, those who don't also have them. But for non-magical night elf haters to deny or oppose the existence of magical night elves because they don't like it...? Is it really necessarily? Are you one of those people that throws a tantrum if it isn't exactly how you like it or isn't the way you imagined it? or do you just accept the reality and make do with what you have?

[Tuor]

Well I've liked night elves for a long time, I have no problem with the druidic characterisation, nor the priestly characterisation, nor the arcane characterisation or the demon fel hunter charterisation.

Then what's the problem? You already have NElf Priests, NElf Druids and if you haven't noticed before the Highborne Mages are back since Cata, you want NElf Warlocks too?

What makes you think I have a problem with it? But it seems you have a problem with magical characterisation in Night elves.

All i said was that the magical characterisation doesn't fit NElf society, look around, No other race (NElfs are in fact a faction not a race) other then Tauren has been so well charactirised.

You my friend appear to be one of the Nelf fans who need to realise that Night elves being magical doesn't stop you from playing your feral night elf hunter or feral druid if that's what you like. Do you think blood elves being magical stops you from playing a blood elf hunter or warrior? or somehow makes the Farstriders and Silvermoon guard somehow not blood elves?

Actually i think that NElf Mages (Highborne) make more sense then Blood Elf Warriors, and no, i wouldn't switch my NElf Warrior for any other class, certainly not for a Blood Elf.

Do you think magical night elves, whether nature, arcane, fel or divine would cancel out the non magical ones? ofc not. Those who like magical night elves have them, those who don't also have them. But for non-magical night elf haters to deny or oppose the existence of magical night elves because they don't like it...? Is it really necessarily? Are you one of those people that throws a tantrum if it isn't exactly how you like it or isn't the way you imagined it? or do you just accept the reality and make do with what you have?

Already answered, you already have Priests, Druids, Demon Hunters, and even mages, what do you want more? There are only 2 other magical classes other then those, Shaman's and Warlock, are you saying you want Shaman NElfs and Warlock NElfs too? Go and pick another race, races don't have all classes.

[Saltysquidoon]

I'd just like to say I read your post addressed to me, I'm only not replying to that because the conversation has moved on, not out of any malice.
That said.

The pure feral race they imagine has never been the night elf in lore or game, and they should realise you don't call a race you want to be savage and feral Night elf, you have orcs, trolls, Worgen fitting that. Alas I am full of sighs right now.

Night elves have fangs, they are the og druids turning into bears and cats, they fight aside large cats, wardens are the avatars of vengeance

Saying night elves are not savage is the same as saying they have no magical affinity, it is far to absolutionist.

[Mace]

Then what's the problem? You already have NElf Priests, NElf Druids and if you haven't noticed before the Highborne Mages are back since Cata, you want NElf Warlocks too?

There isn't a problem. Anyway, some horde fans were saying Night elves have no right to magic because they supposedly abandoned it, same with civilization apparently... Also saying things like Night elves are or should be feral and savage, or shouldn't have hhighborne because it's not a night elf thing, some very dodgy reasoning based on pseudo lore, partial information, mis-information and the like. Stuff like that, has happened recently on NElf topics, derailing most of them, so I thought I'd do this for those guys to first of all do a comprehensive list the parts relating to the night elves that show all the aspects they are denying, wher ein the lore you can see them - aware that most of the people who post these, aren't actaually big on Night elf lore or blizzard lore really, they just either enjoy the game and like the race, but either don't know much about it, or are specifically elf fans on the horde very jealous of the prospect of night elven magical side of the race that shows up a lot in the books actually being in game, (don't ask me why, I think they feel if it is clear as day rather than in a novel or in a forgetting expansion pack, then somehow their race will lose it's top spot - (it's all nonsense though.)

Whatever the group, individual or motive, this is the space to tackle those misconceptions, highlight that aspect of the lore, argue, debate, discuss etc without derailing other threads and as some provide info for those who don't realise this side exists, either because they only played classic, or thought what they saw in Wc3 was basically all the Night elves were about.

All i said was that the magical characterisation doesn't fit NElf society, look around, No other race (NElfs are in fact a faction not a race) other then Tauren has been so well charactirised.

Ah, that's very different from what I thought you said. However, if you are basing it from looks.. how do you reach that conclusion? did you read my second section on magic and the Night elves? You'd have to ignore all of that to still think magical characterisation doesn't fit NElf society - unless you mean arcane magical characterisation doesn't fit Darnassian Night elf society. In which case, I would say I see where you are coming from, but I wouldn't use the word fit, I'd say it's just not a large part or significant part of that society currently.

Actually i think that NElf Mages (Highborne) make more sense then Blood Elf Warriors, and no, i wouldn't switch my NElf Warrior for any other class, certainly not for a Blood Elf.

Tbh I have never understood why people on here don't think Night elf mages make sense - you would only think so if you didn't know their lore properly. For me instantly a Highborne or Moonguard come to mind.

When I factor in their lore, it is hardly surprising that some great night elf magical societies survived the sundering and hid successfully. Also, everyone knew highborne night elves were around from classic, with the patch shortly after launch.. they didn't even need to make the Shen'dralar join the Darnassians tbh, especially given how the DKs didn't join the Night elves or any race you can play them at.

it is significant that they did and continued developing their roles as well as showing a lot more of that side of the Night elves in Legion.

Finally it's shocking how some players don't grasp the point of the very role playing game they play - i.e. to play roles, so it shouldn't surprise them that blizzard builds more than one fantasy for each race. While many races had new roles added to them over the course of Warcraft, the arcane in the Night elves wasn't an addition, but there from the very beginning, the race already had great arcane in their lore from the very first introduction. It wasn't even an addition, but a core part of the race (notice I said race, not a Darnassian society -another thing detailnaysayers don't pick up because of one and the same problem, they don't pay attention to the information they are given properly)

Already answered, you already have Priests, Druids, Demon Hunters, and even mages, what do you want more? There are only 2 other magical classes other then those, Shaman's and Warlock, are you saying you want Shaman NElfs and Warlock NElfs too? Go and pick another race, races don't have all classes.

At least you see it now,

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Night elves have fangs, they are the og druids turning into bears and cats, they fight aside large cats, wardens are the avatars of vengeance

Saying night elves are not savage is the same as saying they have no magical affinity, it is far to absolutionist.

Nightborne also have fangs, as do San'layn, - i'm sorry but the fangs touch to me just shows they are not human, not that they are feral.

And yes druids do turn into bears and cats, does that not make only the druids of the claw feral, and only when in an animal form? Does it make the entire race a feral race? No.

They fight alongside these powerful cats they tame and highly train (so they aren't really feral) besides, they have above average intelligence thanks to the well of eternity, those are there mounts though, are we judging a race as feral because they have creature mounts? That would make every race feal, because all races have creatures.


I'm sorry, the things you pointed out are not an indication of savagery or a feral race... at best you can say the druids of the claw that use cat o r bear form are feral while in those forms, but that's hardly even the case.

Savage, even less so, you can probably say that the night elves can fight savagely - I can imagine some demon hunters and sentinels fighting with a new primal feral savage rage, but that's about it. I certainly wouldn't label the entire race savage. At the very most you could say they have some feral-like elements to them (thinking of the druids in animal forms), but even that is a stretch, the druids use those forms to fight and carry out that work, not to live like wild animals. When they fight in those forms, that's savage - and that's about all the savage in the Night elves I can think of.

The vast majority is not.

[Tuor]

There isn't a problem. Anyway, some horde fans were saying Night elves have no right to magic because they supposedly abandoned it, same with civilization apparently... Also saying things like Night elves are or should be feral and savage, or shouldn't have hhighborne because it's not a night elf thing, some very dodgy reasoning based on pseudo lore,

Again, NElf isn't a race, its a faction, so please stop adressing them as if they were a race, their race is called kaldo'rei, and includes both NElf and Highborne, they both lost imortality at the same time when the Hyjal worldtree was consumed by the wisps.

Also, the one whose basing in pseudo-lore is you, and your last post you claimed stuff like NElfs don't have babies, well, there is a nice quest in Astranaar/Ashenvale waiting for you, the quest were you asked to help a deseperate father whose chieldren is dying, this quest has been there since classic, and after cata was refurbished, but it still is there, which proves NElfs do have babies.

Another misconception based on pseudo lore is the fact that the Highborne got their ass kiked by the Druids. Before the sundering the Highborne ruled all the Kaldo'rei, they were the noblesman, all other Elfs were nothing else then just peasants. When Malfurion banned the Highborne, and magic, some Highborne accepted that, whille other didn't only after that they formed the NElf society we see in current lore, NElfs didn't existed before the sundering.

Also in your previous post you claim only men survived, how can that be? We know for sure at least one female survived, Tyrande. Their wholle society is female based, only females can become priests and sentinnels, that is what we see both in WC3 and WoW. Males are meant to become Druids.

Highborne, aren't included in the NElf society, because whille they still Kaldo'rei, they never have been part of the NElf society, they even refused to stop using arcane magic, and you can see them in places like Dire Maul. All of the Sindo'rei (Blood Elfs and High Elfs) are descendent of the Highborne that got isolated in the Eastern Kingdoms, they diverged so much they stopped being Kaldo'rei, they are their own race. Same thing with the Naga and the Satyr.

Conclusion, NElfs aren't addicted to magic, they banned it, Malfurion even sent his own brother to jail because Ilidian refused to stop using magic.

This is what is supposed to be a NElf, a female controlled society that refused to use any other source of magic other then nature, and the magic that comes from Elune (moon light).

Ah, that's very different from what I thought you said. However, if you are basing it from looks..

Its not just looks, its perhaps the most complex characterisation on the game.

how do you reach that conclusion? did you read my second section on magic and the Night elves?

NElfs didn't EXIST at the sudering event.

Tbh I have never understood why people on here don't think Night elf mages make sense - you would only think so if you didn't know their lore properly. For me instantly a Highborne or Moonguard come to mind.

They aren't NElfs, they are Highborne, a diferent faction within the Kaldo'rei race.

The in-game lore is meant to despict NElfs, not the Highborn that refused to stop using magic.

[Beloren]

Again, NElf isn't a race, its a faction, so please stop adressing them as if they were a race, their race is called kaldo'rei, and includes both NElf and Highborne, they both lost imortality at the same time when the Hyjal worldtree was consumed by the wisps.

Sounds like rubbish to me. I would understand if you said Night elf could be considered as faction also.. but to say it's not a race. You do realise Night elf is what they call that race in common, and kaldorei is what they call them in the elven tongue.

Night elf race and the faction stopped being interchangeable after WC3, when the current timeline showed there were other night elven factions.

[Tuor]

Sounds like rubbish to me.

Night elf is the race, we use to call the race and the faction the same thing, which was fine when we thought only one group existed, but they clearly have many factions, so it is not a faction, the Night elf is a race, the faction you play mostly is the Darnassian, the Darnassians have the druid faction, the Priest order, the highborne caste, you can also play the Illidari faction of half demon night elves and the Ebon Blade undead faction, which the Night elf DK is part of. A Night elf DK is not part of the Night elf faction - so Night elf is obviously not a faction but race description.

It does have factions and they have names. The Night elves when I refer to them is a race, I think this is the case for most people. As far as I know, the race is called Night elf in common and Kaldorei in the elven tongue.

The problem is that NElfs only started calling themselves Night Elfs after they banned magic, at that time none of the highborne had time yet to evolve into other races (Blood Elves, Naga, Satyr), the NElf mages we play in-game, remained Highborne and never got twisted into deeper kind of magic like other Highborne. Those Highborne lost their imortality at the same time NElfs did, which proves they were still both the same race, even that those Highborne haven't been part of the NElf society. Highborne are not NElfs at all, they only reunited with NElfs at the time Deathwing was destroying the world. They lived separeted from NElfs for over 10k years, and even today they don't fit the NElf standart. But they not a diferent race like Blood Elfs, i cal them Kaldo'rei, if you or anyone else has a real name for that race, then feel free to post it here, one thing i have sure, that race already existed much before the NElfs stated to call themselves that way.

So, to finish, all Druids (even being part of the Cenarion Circle), all Priests, all sentinels came from the group that banned Highborne and sterted calling themselves NElfs. Highborne have never been part of the NElf society until Deathwing came, that was 10k year after NElfs started calling like that, i think they still aren't quite NElfs.
As for DH's and DK's they were born NElf's, being the exception Ilidian, but even Ilidian initially adopted the NElf tradition of not using magic...He got twisted later, if i'm not mistaken.

[Maleific]

All elven magi take a backseat to humans in this game anyway, so meh.

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Don't get me wrong, at the time the night elf was the best, but they did the blood elf better in TBC in every department, better model, better magical city, better magical forest, better rangers, better magic users, and every encounter the two met the blood elves have destroyed the Night elves. The 6.0 model updates, the night elves ended up looking worse in the eyes of many than their classic models, not better - watch how the cries for high elves went up. Then finally a night elf civilization city came and it was stunning, but look where it went? Even though the Nightborne were clearly a night elven sub race group, based on night elf lore - look where they went, and look how adamantly blood elf fans argued how "more blood elven" the Nightborne were which is absolute garbage if you know the lore, but they fel they had to, because they greatly feared the alliance getting it, and would hae been JEALOUS.

Human emotions are.

2 factions of Highborne had more in common with each other culturally than a conservative nature-based Night Elven society of the same skin colour?

[sam86]

the only misconseption u have is blizz giving a single f8ck about lore anymore since a while
trying to make a race that was flat out anti-magic for 10k years and considered it the biggest blasphemy and their civilization is literally built on anti-arcane and druidism-nature love has exact same logic as 'demons are one and same across all universes, but their own boss Sargeras is unique in each universe since he is titan', aka bullsh8t

blizz will do whatever they want if not obvious anymore since ages, they will shove any lore in our throats and we have to accept it, heck their own 'most accurate definition' of lore Chronicles is from creatures that spent 99% of their time dead and trapped as souls, having no access literally to any events outside of their prison world to know them, yet they are - according to blizz - the writers of Chronicles, the only thing that would make chronicles has no credibility is saying they were written by rats, in fact rats may know about Azeroth more than titans...

Blizz even admitted the reason they made belfs join horde isn't lore or credibility or anything, but a poll asking asian players (who by TBC were almost 40% of playerbase, ironic since in wrath china banned it and they were unable to play it) what will make them play the game more and the asian players answered want a pretty race for horde (blizz isn't hiding that fact btw, u can easily google it)
U think a company with that mentality really gives a single f8ck about lore on long term?

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All elven take a backseat to humans in this game anyway, so meh.

fixed
alliance have a literally immortal race, a 10k years old warrior race, a 250 years old race, a light divine immortal race and so on, and all those exist how 'amazing superior' a single teenage boy is as long he is human
if a nelf male wank just once a week he will have arm strength that no human can achieve, but yeah let's make humans lead alliance because they are self-inserted mental images of wow team

[Syegfryed]

fixed
alliance have a literally immortal race, a 10k years old warrior race, a 250 years old race, a light divine immortal race and so on, and all those exist how 'amazing superior' a single teenage boy is as long he is human
if a nelf male wank just once a week he will have arm strength that no human can achieve, but yeah let's make humans lead alliance because they are self-inserted mental images of wow team

they should take a backseat because the game is hordexalliance orcsxhumans after all, see how they remove orcs from importance in the horde how much the horde became shit.