9.0 General Discussion

[Makabreska]

There will never be a time skip.

Feel free to quote me on that one in two years. It's not happening. People always say and speculate this, every expansion. It's not a thing.

TBH, I've started to see this theory only sine SL announcement.

Maybe we will free Rastakhans bloodline by saving Bwonsamdi?

That would be super lame. This plot line is defining feature in Talanji's future endeavours, and ending it so quickly, w/o letting it have any consequences would be dumb. Like, why having this deal in the first place, if it's gonna be resolved at the begging of next xpac?

[tristannarutofan]

Right, because wanting an evil character kill another evil character somehow makes one an incel?

That not what yall were proposing. Yall were talking about destroying arthas' character arc to enjoy the fictional suffering of his woman victim who he murdered, and yes, violated, cus u dont like her.

While maybe its not your INTENT but it is extremely similar to how incels think. Like that one guy who decided to shoot up a sorority cus he thought women like them would never have sex with him.

Perhaps u havent payed attention to reactions to sylvannases arch by male fans as much or have different social circles. Its fully possible to have similar opinions to terrible people. Maybe your opinions arent rooted in the same things. But that is the type of thing THOSE ppl do believe. So ppl are justified in generalizing it so imo

[Chickat]

What about something like this?

10-20 years feels about right. Long enough to mostly repopulate Azeroth with strong/young fighters. A decent bit of nelves. A ton more Draenei. Void elves recruit the High Elves into the alliance officially. We have lower ranking children of current leaders. Like Thralls kid is now 20 or something. Anduin is 35-40 and married with a 10 year old kid. Wrathion is fully grown. The world is mostly healed from the cataclysm/legion/old gods etc. Alliance and horde still separate but on good terms. Now a few neutral major cities. Booty bay now bigger and takes up half of Southern Stranglethorn instead of just a small part. Same with Ratchet and Gadgetzan. Gadgetzan is now nearly half of Tanaris. A good 20-30 quests of the zone take place in the city similar to Suramar.

[Defend]

Paul would know.

[Makabreska]

If your audience cant tell where your story is going you have failed as a writer.

Thats writing 101. Exposition, rising action, forshadowing and character development create a path that creates the story. The details can change in the moment but by and large if the end of a story has little to do with most of the story u failed to craft a cohesive story

So like, each time a story takes an unexpected turn, it's a failure on the writers part?

[tristannarutofan]

I have no idea how someone can make the conclusion that wanting Arthas to kill Sylvanas is fueled by sexism except in the case of trying to bait for replies.



Haven't seen anyone say Arthas is an angel, people want him to kill her because he is her biggest enemy and it would be the most humiliating/satisfying way for her to die in their opinion.



Not much deeper than that folks.

Why do u want her die die in a humiliating way then? Arthas died next to someone who cared about him illidan didnt die. Guldan lost all his power but he didnt live long enough to be humiliated.

Like seriously if u pay attention at all to misogynists the first thing they do to a woman they hate is try to humiliate her. Sexually or otherwise

There is no reason to want it so one has to question why. Why isnt enoigh that she might die and why does it have to be at the hands of the person who made her evil

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So like, each time a story takes an unexpected turn, it's a failure on the writers part?

Careful not to hyperbolize.

If the story is leading to a confrontation between the hero and villain and u think hes going to defeat the villain but instead he joins him because hes lost his innosence and believes in the villains values, thats an unexpected turn yes. But it was also forshadowed and based on characterizarion on the chapters leading up to it. If there was nothing to suggest that the hero was losing his innocense and nothing to show him identifying with the villain then yes it was bad writing.

Similarly if the conflict doesnt happen cus rick and morty blow up their planet then that is also bad writing (but possibly good comedy)

But yes everytime things happen in a story for no reason and counter to established characterization and plot that is bad writing.

That isnt an unexpected turn though.

Or in otherwords. If u say u are going straight for a mile but instead take a right at the next exit that is an unexpected turn. If u decide to just twist your wheel and drive through the barrier and into the forst, thats jist bad driving

[therumblings]

Yall were talking about destroying arthas' character arc to enjoy the fictional suffering of his woman victim who he murdered, and yes, violated, cus u dont like her.

Lol what??? Sylvanas was a good character that got hit with the villain bat. Making Arthas kill her would be blissfully ironic and shitty to the point of it being humorous, which is much better than what we have now, despite it still being shit.

Hating Sylvanas does not make you sexist.

[tristannarutofan]

TBH, I've started to see this theory only sine SL announcement.


That would be super lame. This plot line is defining feature in Talanji's future endeavours, and ending it so quickly, w/o letting it have any consequences would be dumb. Like, why having this deal in the first place, if it's gonna be resolved at the begging of next xpac?

Its cus in the interview today he specifically mentioned that time works differently and "who knows what azeroth will be like when we get back"

My thought is that it will be jist enough time for a force to invade and set up operations.

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Lol what??? Sylvanas was a good character that got hit with the villain bat. Making Arthas kill her would be blissfully ironic and shitty to the point of it being humorous, which is much better than what we have now, despite it still being shit.

Hating Sylvanas does not make you sexist.

never said it did

but i understand how seeing people doing somethign that looks exactly like what sexist men want, might be confused as such.

further your basic premise is wrong at best and extremely ignorant at worse. she didnt get hit with a villain bat, she was evil since she became a banshee, thats why she went to the maw when she died, the same short story that showed she hated the horde and forsaken and saw them both as only weapons to be used to prevent her death. She's always been an evil monster, she just hasnt had the role of villain till now.

Furthermore humor is subjective. You say "lul it wud be luls to have arthas kill her" and people who actually care about the writing would see that as a violation of both of their character arcs. Both Sylvannas and Kerrigan have suffered from the "Rape allegory" since conception. Kerrigan turned her pain into a reason to understand other peopels pain, sylvannas let it consume her and satisfied her anger by hurting others. And she got that way because of arthas. So while it is a valid writing technique to have the monster who created her and ruined her eternal soul be the one who destroyes her for good, that would be an extremely pessimeistic and tragic story. She is murdered, used to kill her people, suffers for years and is finally killed off for good by the person who did all this to her?

thats not really the tone of warcraft. And IMO its bad fandom in order to put pressure on the writers to ruin the theme of their stories just because you "think it would be funny"

[Sharby]

Why do u want her die die in a humiliating way then? Arthas died next to someone who cared about him illidan didnt die. Guldan lost all his power but he didnt live long enough to be humiliated.

Like seriously if u pay attention at all to misogynists the first thing they do to a woman they hate is try to humiliate her. Sexually or otherwise

There is no reason to want it so one has to question why. Why isnt enoigh that she might die and why does it have to be at the hands of the person who made her evil

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As someone who is wary of bigotry, I understand what you are trying to say, and I do agree that some of the people who dislike her would probably be fine with her if she was a man.


But that has no bearing here, and you're really weird for suggesting so.


People want her to get blasted in a satisfying way because she has been shown as always having the upper-hand, being smug, condescending, on top of blatantly evil. There is nothing strange or red-flag-worthy about wanting her to get knocked off her pedestal and hit rock-bottom. Nobody that I've seen has ever suggested her death needs to be gender-heavy or weirdly sexual, humiliating in this case just means she loses her upper hand.

If she was a man and acted the same way people would still want this for her end, see: Nathanos.

[tristannarutofan]

(like jeeze honestly people get their jimmies rustled by one offhanded comment from one user. If someone calls you prejudiced and you dont think you are then move on with your life, no need to burn crosses over it)

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As someone who is wary of bigotry, I understand what you are trying to say, and I do agree that some of the people who dislike her would probably be fine with her if she was a man.


But that has no bearing here, and you're really weird for suggesting so.


People want her to get blasted in a satisfying way because she has been shown as always having the upper-hand, being smug, condescending, on top of blatantly evil. There is nothing strange or red-flag-worthy about wanting her to get knocked off her pedestal and hit rock-bottom. Nobody that I've seen has ever suggested her death needs to be gender-heavy or weirdly sexual, humiliating in this case just means she loses her upper hand.

If she was a man and acted the same way people would still want this for her end, see: Nathanos.

again i didnt call anyone anything, I simply stated why some behavior looks like similar behavior.

but yes lets use your example. what have you seen people say they want to happen to nathanos? cus i've only ever seen people say they want to kill him. Not humiliate him

p.s. I extremely disagree with your presmise. i've seen anti jewish posts, anti black people posts, anti women posts, anti lgbt posts here many many times. And its why until sl was announced i only came here in desperation. So I dont believe for a second that the users here are any better or worse than, say , reddit. there has been plenty of bigotry on this website and so there is nothing wrong with expecting it

[therumblings]

She is murdered, used to kill her people, suffers for years and is finally killed off for good by the person who did all this to her?

Then she murdered, killed her people, and made people suffer for years.

It would be ironic to have the person who made her, end her. It's not at all preferable, it's just humorously ironic and exactly something Blizzard writers would do, since it's not a satisfying end to Sylvanas' character.

cus i've only ever seen people say they want to kill him. Not humiliate him

Nathanos humiliation would be even better than Sylvanas humiliation, since Nathanos is more of an edgelord and dick to players. Would be glorious.

[tristannarutofan]

Then she murdered, killed her people, and made people suffer for years.

It would be ironic to have the person who made her, end her. It's not at all preferable, it's just humorously ironic and exactly something Blizzard writers would do, since it's not a satisfying end to Sylvanas' character.

mmmm i think you think my comment was saying that ..ikd....she's just a victim?

I know she did all that stuff. I've been saying that to sylvannas stans for 2 years. I find the character interesting cus of that and i hate her as a person cus of that.

I'm saying from a Narrative standpoint, that is a TRAGIC story and thats not Warcrafts MO. "you suffer and then you die, by the hand of the person who made you suffer in the first place."

Its more fitting for her to be brought to justice by her own actions, or the people she hurt. even Nathanos, assuming they have a good reason. For awhile i was hoping they were going for a "even evil has standards" thing with him with his hesitation at teldrassil. but apparently he's ride or die, for her

[therumblings]

I mean we're at the point where it's too far gone. I can't imagine any ending that would be satisfying, they had a chance before Teldrassil, but just like Arthas, she has crossed a terrible threshold.

[TheFirstOnes]

For all the incels maybe.

Really? A bunch of you go on and rightly point out the immorality of Sylv's actions, and yet champion the sociopath who for all intents and purposes murdered, spiritually raped, and enslaved her?

I am disappoint.

No one is saying he's right, either. We're just saying it would be ironic, considering Sylvanas did what she did cause she hated Arthas for enslaving both her, as well as the many others he violently slaughtered and raised. And now, SHE's being the Arthas here, but on a Cosmic Scale.

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Apologies if I offended your delicate sensibilities, I just wanted some clarification.

People are, in fact, advocating a redemption arc for character that slaughtered countless innocents, raised commoners and heroes as mindless undead abominations, stabbed their closest friends in the back (or front, I honestly forget) all because of a secret greater calling that no one else understood and distinctly unlearned sense of privilege? AND, if someone objects or calls into question any of this they are taking it too seriously and looking for issues?

Also, I thoroughly enjoy being called any variation of justice warrior, so thank you for that.

For all the shit Arthas did, he never once tried to disrupt the Cosmic Balance and want literally everything and everyone to die for the sake of it...

[FlubberPuddy]

I mean we're at the point where it's too far gone. I can't imagine any ending that would be satisfying, they had a chance before Teldrassil, but just like Arthas, she has crossed a terrible threshold.

This pretty much. Any resolution to Sylvanas's behavior will most likely be unsatisfying other than knowing she's not going to continue the 5d chess she's been doing between BFA pre-patch to BFA War Campaign ending.

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For all the shit Arthas did, he never once tried to disrupt the Cosmic Balance and want literally everything and everyone to die for the sake of it...

I have never read the Arthas book so anyone feel free to correct me with evidence why I'm wrong but Arthas's story seems like a tragic one of someone who was on a good path but their own selfish desires got in the way of it and they ended up a villain through and through.

I would say the most similar parallel I could draw would probably be Christopher Nolan's take on Two-Face.

Is this correct? Not just asking you, but in general anyone feel free to chime in. My only experience of Arthas is pretty much Wrath and hearing about the Culling of Stratholme/his WC3 story.

[Cosmic Janitor]

A redemption for arthas, as in arthas or to be more precise the matthias lehner part, could be in so far interesting if there was a part of his soul that actually is good and seeks forgiveness. After retconning the whole "who is the lich king for real?" part a dozen times over a definitive answer could be interesting, even if it ment that Arthas would have to suffer in the maw in a manner like Bolvar did in Icecrown. Maybe by creating a kind of twin/double Lichking as the Jailor of the Damned with Bolvar representing the physical side while Arthas represents the spiritual one in the shadowlands.

At the end of the day you can do alot of things, it just depends on how you tackle it. While Arthas is/was evil, he was also corrupted and merged with an evil and twisted entity (or not, depending on who you ask over the last 20 years). Sylvanas is just pridefull, arrogant and scared shitless since she was turned, all of that was her own work. I'd be willing to give the tiny speck of Arthas that might be good a chance at redemption. At least it'd have to be an actual redemption that would need to be earned over the course of the expansion. A redemption for Sylvans would just be a convoluted 5D chess move because she wanted to topple some cosmic threat.. or something.

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Nobody that I've seen has ever suggested her death needs to be gender-heavy or weirdly sexual, humiliating in this case just means she loses her upper hand.

If she was a man and acted the same way people would still want this for her end, see: Nathanos.

I agree, case in point: How Garrosh got killed. While the setup was maybe not that great, seeing the smug warrior that somehow could always beat you (because the story says so) get defeated while helplessly struggling against the elements (which he wronged big time btw), was the kind of thing I'd prefer for syvlanas. Off the pedestal you go, back to the starting line.

[TheFirstOnes]

This pretty much. Any resolution to Sylvanas's behavior will most likely be unsatisfying other than knowing she's not going to continue the 5d chess she's been doing between BFA pre-patch to BFA War Campaign ending.

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I have never read the Arthas book so anyone feel free to correct me with evidence why I'm wrong but Arthas's story seems like a tragic one of someone who was on a good path but their own selfish desires got in the way of it and they ended up a villain through and through.

I would say the most similar parallel I could draw would probably be Christopher Nolan's take on Two-Face.

Is this correct? Not just asking you, but in general anyone feel free to chime in. My only experience of Arthas is pretty much Wrath and hearing about the Culling of Stratholme/his WC3 story.

Think of Arthas as Warcraft's Version of Anakin, with Uther being like Obi Wan, but more of a dick, ya know?

[Harbour]

Hey, guys, im from 2021, the Shadowlands world.
Shortly:
shit just hit the fan

Elaborated:
>People complained about Covenants being not even nearly enough to be considered balanced;
>Couple times Ion went on a rant about how RPG experience is more important to them than gameplay(!) in Shadowlands, so they not gonna change Covenants;
>Conduits turned out to be mandatory stat system, basically Azerite traits that are less RNG.
>Bloodmallet and Icy-Veins had working guide to Covenants and Conduits on the day one of release;
>It was pretty fun game first month or two. Like always people complained about their classes and covenants, but overall Torghast runs were pretty fun and the only thing that was actually nice to do if you dont want to grind M+ and raid;
>But the more time went on, the more noticable became the problem, the more people cried; Covenants and Conduits fucking sucked;
>What exactly happend - you create the character, said, Subtlety Rogue, you spend the day leveling it, you hit 60, you go to Icy-Veins, look at what the best Covenant for you and realize, that its Venthyr, but its only good for Subtlety (not for Ass or Outlaw) in M+, so if you wanted to play it in raiding or later switch into another spec, Venthyr would be sub-optimal;
>Many retards dont welcome you in a +10 and +15 if you dont have optimal M+ Covenants;
>So, okay, you decided you wanna go Sub, Venthyr, for M+. There is also BIS Conduit, so you pick it up too. Okay, you are ready to go.
>You do M+, you realize that you are pretty shit in raiding and arenas, and yeah, Torghast is way better suited for Outlaw rogues, so you feel yourself not that effective;
>You decide to pull out you old boost and make another character;
>Repeat previous steps;
>Now, the most interesting things happened - 9.1 update came out, with 5 to 20% boost to other Covenants with 15% nerft to Venthyr for Rogues. Lmao. Your Rogue character became shit in M+;
>Fuck!
>People are already bitching about it.

[Sondrelk]

Hey, guys, im from 2021, the Shadowlands world.
Shortly:
shit just hit the fan

Elaborated:
-snip-

Or, counterpoint:
>Players whined about the guides telling them what to pick, a few players obessively change covenants
>Right before the Nathria opens a big covenant balance patch comes out, all covenants+soulbinds are now as good as equal
>Players who chose what they enjoyed now get that smug feeling that comes from not having to change covenants at the drop of a hat
>Hardcore players who did care complain while more casual players keep enjoying the cosmeitcs and playing what they enjoy

[Nere]

With how much attention Torghast is getting and with how well it is received, I am a bit afraid Blizzard will focus way too much on it instead of gameplay outside Torghast. Already recent builds have been mostly focused on Torghast, as far as class balance goes. Hope they don't spend all their time there and realize that 90% of the gameplay will be outside Torghast and it needs to be refined too.