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  1. #281
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3DTyrant View Post
    I hope we find out why Kel'thuzad is in the Shadowlands, if I remember rightly, we didn't find, nor destroy his phylactery the second time we fought him.
    It's likely non-corporeal undead temporarily go to the Shadowlands when "killed," which would make sense for Liches who've had their material aspect destroyed but their phylactery remains intact. Kel'Thuzad could likely reform himself in time, but for now he's chilling out in Maldraxxus somewhere.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #282
    Scarab Lord 3DTyrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's likely non-corporeal undead temporarily go to the Shadowlands when "killed," which would make sense for Liches who've had their material aspect destroyed but their phylactery remains intact. Kel'Thuzad could likely reform himself in time, but for now he's chilling out in Maldraxxus somewhere.
    Good point, I didn't think of it that way.
    Shath'mag vwyq shu et'agthu, Shath'mag sshk ye! Krz'ek fhn'z agash zz maqdahl or'kaaxth'ma amqa!
    The Black Empire once ruled this pitiful world, and it will do so again! Your pitiful kind will know only despair and sorrow for a hundred thousand millennia to come!
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  3. #283
    What are the chances we'll find out which Dreadlord Sire Denathrius was in a previous life.

    It seems to be obvious as daylight he was 1 upon a time, he's even referenced as one by The Accuser, even uses a re-skinned Dreadlord model, but no references in his dungeon journal to any Dreadlord transformations or Natherzim abilities.


    It's worth discussing/speculating about. Note it's impossible to be Balnazzar or Varimathras as they're permanently dead but the others are still going.

  4. #284
    The Lightbringer Dalheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    What are the chances we'll find out which Dreadlord Sire Denathrius was in a previous life.

    It seems to be obvious as daylight he was 1 upon a time, he's even referenced as one by The Accuser, even uses a re-skinned Dreadlord model, but no references in his dungeon journal to any Dreadlord transformations or Natherzim abilities.


    It's worth discussing/speculating about. Note it's impossible to be Balnazzar or Varimathras as they're permanently dead but the others are still going.
    He looks more like a re-skinned Draenei male.

  5. #285
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    What are the chances we'll find out which Dreadlord Sire Denathrius was in a previous life.

    It seems to be obvious as daylight he was 1 upon a time, he's even referenced as one by The Accuser, even uses a re-skinned Dreadlord model, but no references in his dungeon journal to any Dreadlord transformations or Natherzim abilities.


    It's worth discussing/speculating about. Note it's impossible to be Balnazzar or Varimathras as they're permanently dead but the others are still going.
    To me, it's clear that Denathrius and maybe his gargoyles are related to the Nathrezim. I mean, he's called DeNATHRius and lives in Castle NATHRia. The question is: how are they related? Who came first? Was Denathrius a Nathrezim, or are the Nathrezim what some of Denathrius species became?
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    What are the chances we'll find out which Dreadlord Sire Denathrius was in a previous life.

    It seems to be obvious as daylight he was 1 upon a time, he's even referenced as one by The Accuser, even uses a re-skinned Dreadlord model, but no references in his dungeon journal to any Dreadlord transformations or Natherzim abilities.


    It's worth discussing/speculating about. Note it's impossible to be Balnazzar or Varimathras as they're permanently dead but the others are still going.
    Didn't Varimathras make an appearance at the Broken Shore intro?

    NVM was thinking of Mal'Ganis...

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    To me, it's clear that Denathrius and maybe his gargoyles are related to the Nathrezim. I mean, he's called DeNATHRius and lives in Castle NATHRia. The question is: how are they related? Who came first? Was Denathrius a Nathrezim, or are the Nathrezim what some of Denathrius species became?
    Actually, the opposite what I said about Varimathras and Balnazzar may be true.

    The venthyr of Revendreth are vampiric punishers of the unworthy and seek to rehabilitate the sinful souls sent to them by the Arbiter. Souls who are successfully rehabilitated are either sent to another realm to serve for eternity or may choose to become a venthyr and continue the cycle as an instrument of repentance
    So it's very possible Denathrius is either 1 of Varimathras or Balnazzar living a new life, most likely the former.

    Was it ever found out what he was referencing to when he said this in Antorus?

    So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
    The later parts of his quotes have already been found out being Teldrassil and the Forsaken Banner

    Also with only 8/10 of the Castle Nathria bosses only revealed so far and it's been found that Nathanos Blightcaller has a raid boss ID attached to him but not added yet! It's very possible that 2 main suspects are in cahoots with each other yet again.

    This is firmly wild speculation at this point but what we can agree on there is a clear connection between the Venthr and the Natherzim.

  8. #288
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    Actually, the opposite what I said about Varimathras and Balnazzar may be true.



    So it's very possible Denathrius is either 1 of Varimathras or Balnazzar living a new life, most likely the former.

    Was it ever found out what he was referencing to when he said this in Antorus?



    The later parts of his quotes have already been found out being Teldrassil and the Forsaken Banner

    Also with only 8/10 of the Castle Nathria bosses only revealed so far and it's been found that Nathanos Blightcaller has a raid boss ID attached to him but not added yet! It's very possible that 2 main suspects are in cahoots with each other yet again.

    This is firmly wild speculation at this point but what we can agree on there is a clear connection between the Venthr and the Natherzim.
    The problem with this theory is that Denathrius is ancient. He's the very first lord of the Venthyr and even their creator, it seems. So, I really doubt he could be Balnazzar or Varimathras. Furthermore, demons do not go to the Shadowlands when they die.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  9. #289
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    The problem with this theory is that Denathrius is ancient. He's the very first lord of the Venthyr and even their creator, it seems. So, I really doubt he could be Balnazzar or Varimathras. Furthermore, demons do not go to the Shadowlands when they die.
    Perhaps once upon a time the Nether didn't work in that way, or perhaps the Dreadlords were not always truly demonic? This may be proof that there are perhaps no "natural" demons, so to speak, and that demonhood is a trait acquired from sufficient time within the Nether.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Perhaps once upon a time the Nether didn't work in that way, or perhaps the Dreadlords were not always truly demonic? This may be proof that there are perhaps no "natural" demons, so to speak, and that demonhood is a trait acquired from sufficient time within the Nether.
    What happens if you die in the nether as a demon? because that isnt explained, afaik. Maybe you go to the shadowlands and stay there for eternity
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  11. #291
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    What happens if you die in the nether as a demon? because that isnt explained, afaik. Maybe you go to the shadowlands and stay there for eternity
    Demons' souls are supposedly annihilated if they die within the Nether, although the lore is also uncertain there what with the effect of Antorus in Legion and all. A Thousand Years of War canonizes Argus as "within the Twisting Nether - every enemy the army felled would stay down forever" and that Argus is "fully shrouded within the Nether." Yet we kill demons on Argus only to have them resurface once more, and the Krokuun Broken also confirm the demonic slave-drivers cannot be killed and return to life over and over.

    Presumably death for demons in the Nether is permanent, but Sargeras was using Argus' world-soul and the engines in Antorus to subvert this process and gift his demons with true eternal reincarnation, but once Argus was defeated and Antorus rendered defunct the demons will return to being permanently destroyed if killed within the Nether.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Demons' souls are supposedly annihilated if they die within the Nether, although the lore is also uncertain there what with the effect of Antorus in Legion and all. A Thousand Years of War canonizes Argus as "within the Twisting Nether - every enemy the army felled would stay down forever" and that Argus is "fully shrouded within the Nether." Yet we kill demons on Argus only to have them resurface once more, and the Krokuun Broken also confirm the demonic slave-drivers cannot be killed and return to life over and over.

    Presumably death for demons in the Nether is permanent, but Sargeras was using Argus' world-soul and the engines in Antorus to subvert this process and gift his demons with true eternal reincarnation, but once Argus was defeated and Antorus rendered defunct the demons will return to being permanently destroyed if killed within the Nether.
    That's my thought too. But are their souls truly destroyed (so, eternal oblivion) or they're sent to the shadowlands, unable to reform in the nether ever again? Because, lorewise, souls can be destroyed (mainly via void/fel power) and the consciousness of said souls stop existing for the rest of eternity... i guess.
    Last edited by Thepersona; 2020-05-08 at 04:55 AM.
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  13. #293
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    That's my thought too. But are their souls truly destroyed (so, eternal oblivion) or they're sent to the shadowlands, unable to reform in the nether ever again?
    No idea, there. Permanent destruction was the original assumption - but who can really say. Sargeras has had his hands on Argus for 30,000+ years and demons are naturally immortal, so it's possible that relatively few demons have actually suffered true death in their collective existence. Might explain their relative paucity in the Shadowlands, or perhaps they have their own discrete realm in the Shadowlands that we're not privy to. Then again maybe they're just dissipated into Fel energy in the Nether on true death and their essence used to give rise to new demons over time, similar to how anima works in the Shadowlands.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #294
    Interview with Morgan Day (lead developer) dropping the hints on Denathrius before he became a Venthyr.

    Think we're on the right road with the Natherzim stuff, maybe not necessarily a currently-known one as it's currently unexplained what happens to a demons soul when it's killed in the Nether.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Perhaps once upon a time the Nether didn't work in that way, or perhaps the Dreadlords were not always truly demonic? This may be proof that there are perhaps no "natural" demons, so to speak, and that demonhood is a trait acquired from sufficient time within the Nether.
    I think this is very likely it. There was this one prediction from Il'gynoth about the "Cunning Ones kneeling in front of six masters but only truely serving one." They very likely are the original servants of the Jailer and when he got confined in the Maw they were send out to explore the different powers of existance to find a way to free him.

    The six masters being the six force in the universe, Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order and Chaos and we know that the Dreadlords have used Light, Void, Undeath and Fel, with only Life and Order not yet seen.

    Probably the whole reforming in the Nether is an aspect of the Fel itself not of a specific race, breaking the normal Order of Life and Death by reviving those that have taken it in.

  16. #296
    With Chronicles being written only from the perspective and based on the knowledge of the Pantheon, it could easily be the case that they don't know anything about the Twisting Nether and what really happens there with demonic souls. So only in the eyes of the Titans demon souls seem to be destroyed completely if they die in the Twisting Nether or a very fel corrupted place. But the thing is, we don't really know anything about the Twisting Nether. And its also pretty obvious that there should be beings in the Twisting Nether that are the counterparts of the Titans. The Titans represent Order. But we have no equvialents to them when it comes who represent the Disorder. And i definitely don't count Sargeras here, because he is only a corrupted Titan. This literally means Blizzard has a lot of options open in that direction.

    And in regards to that new interview with Ion Hazzikostas: "Arthas true personality". I really can't wait. *looks at all the amazing true personality changes of BfA*

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post

    And in regards to that new interview with Ion Hazzikostas: "Arthas true personality". I really can't wait. *looks at all the amazing true personality changes of BfA*
    What did he said about Arthas? I hope they don't want to bring him back as some lawful good redeemed character, heck the role of Maul from Clone Wars is the only standar I expect for that old bastard in the case he returns
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    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
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    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  18. #298
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    And in regards to that new interview with Ion Hazzikostas: "Arthas true personality". I really can't wait. *looks at all the amazing true personality changes of BfA*

    Arthas is actually the champion of the primal force of the Arcane
    And he likes Lacrosse
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    What did he said about Arthas? I hope they don't want to bring him back as some lawful good redeemed character, heck the role of Maul from Clone Wars is the only standar I expect for that old bastard in the case he returns
    On front page of MMO Champion its stated like this:

    "Arthas is obviously SOMEWHERE in the Shadowlands, but they want to be respectful with the character. We will learn more about him and his true nature, but we most likely won't be adventuring or interacting much with him."

    So we appaerently will learn more about his true nature. Looking at all the amazing character progression in BfA this will potentially be more cringe of the highest order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Arthas is actually the champion of the primal force of the Arcane
    And he likes Lacrosse
    Something like that. Oh joy.
    Last edited by Reinhart11; 2020-05-15 at 08:38 AM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart11 View Post
    On front page of MMO Champion its stated like this:

    "Arthas is obviously SOMEWHERE in the Shadowlands, but they want to be respectful with the character. We will learn more about him and his true nature, but we most likely won't be adventuring or interacting much with him."

    So we appaerently will learn more about his true nature. Looking at all the amazing character progression in BfA this will potentially be more cringe of the highest order
    What's even the point of all that jazz if we aren't going to interact with him in the first place? This sounds like the whole purge of Stratholme would be made more black or he's going to be run in the ground that all his actions were just the Jailor using him like a puppet in order to hype him as a villain
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

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