Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Strippling]

And despite that, a new blue joined the team that still wishes for Blood Elf Druids. Players, and even Blizzard employees, will always simply request what they want with no regard for whether something actually makes sense or not.

Because that's the norm. Which is what I've been trying to tell others. Most people will just ask for things, they don't care to ensure 'oh this makes sense in lore and gameplay and yada yada' all the stuff that people are trying to make those requesting High Elves jump hoops over.

Of course players will request what they want whether it makes sense or not. However, the interview shows though that despite players request (such as playable alliance high elves or void elf paladins), if it doesn't make sense then blizzard are not likely to do it rather than try to fill the status quo.

- - - Updated - - -

That's funny because Vereesa (you know... The Ranger General of the Silver Covenant, not a random raid boss with no background) also says blood elves are unworthy of their heritage.

Elisande is at least impartial where as Vareesa is naturally biased. Who's a better judge, an impartial one or a biased one?

[FlubberPuddy]

Of course players will request what they want whether it makes sense or not. However, the interview shows though that despite players request (such as playable alliance high elves or void elf paladins), if it doesn't make sense then blizzard are not likely to do it rather than try to fill the status quo.

Or Blizzard will only add it in a (to them) sensible way. Like Tauren Paladins are lore-wise Sun Druids, but for gameplay purposes they're given access to the Paladin class.

It's a good thing then that they've never said Alliance High Elves don't make sense, unlike blue eyes for Blood Elves.

[Strippling]

I am sure that the horde players have seen much more Vereesa than the current general ranger of Silvermoon.

Wrong. Halduron has featured in every expansion. On top of that he is in several novels. As a predominantly Horde player I've seen much more of him than Vareesa.

- - - Updated - - -

Or Blizzard will only add it in a (to them) sensible way. Like Tauren Paladins are lore-wise Sun Druids, but for gameplay purposes they're given access to the Paladin class.

It's a good thing then that they've never said Alliance High Elves don't make sense, unlike blue eyes for Blood Elves.

Well, they added void elves instead of alliance high elves. In a follow up interview they stated that alliance high elves would blur faction lines. So, blizzard implement a form of alliance high elf in a sensible way (to them).. aka void elves.

[Beloren]

I'm happy Ion addressed the matter and stated that blue eyes will never be a BE thing, ever. Ciao.

Ah, but High elves can become a horde thing as high elves too (not only as blood elves). There is always that

[Strippling]

Ah, but High elves can become a horde thing. There is always that

That's already a thing. Blood elves are our high elves. The high elf race is already a Horde thing, and in fact they are a core Horde race who are playable on the Horde.

[Obelisk Kai]

The whole concept of "race" in WoW is ridiculously inconsistent and only serves a gameplay purpose. You -and really anyone- are setting yourself for failure trying to find a consistent in universe definition of "race" in WoW.

See, that's the thing really. I'm not searching for a universal definition of race in Warcraft. My point is that an Allied race has to have some level of difference between itself and it's parent to qualify as an Allied race and every single Allied race so far has met that litmus test. It is those who seek high elves within the alliance, the group ruled out publicly on the grounds of being identical to Blood Elves, who force comparisons with every allied race introduced in an attempt to prove the developers wrong and that high elves either already meet this most basic of criteria or could be changed to meet it.

Every race introduced as an allied race so far has something. You could label it biological, you could label it physical, but they all have something that differentiates them from their parent. And yes, the gameplay purpose is that when Blizzard introduced a new race, that that race actually be new.

Holy macarel! Do you get that "could be" is not the same than "it is", right?

As thalassian bob observed, and he is a Void Elf player who roleplays as a former Silver Covenant Elf who is now a Void Elf, those who militantly object to the possibility are pursuing an agenda. That agenda is to foreclose the possibility of playing a Silver Covenant Elf who became a Void Elf to preserve the possibility of a high elf allied race.

Regardless, Void Elf players are not entitled to superior consideration when compared to Dwarf players who wish to play their Dwarf as a Wildhammer, or a Troll player who wishes to play their troll as a Revantusk. Moorgard was quite clear, they aren't going to make that kind of background explicit. It is entirely up to the individual to live out their own roleplay, so long as that roleplay is consistent with the lore. Void Elves being able to turn other elves is clearly consistent with existing lore. That you don't have that absolutely explicit confirmation isn't really relevant, particularly given those other players who are expected to make do. That the option exists to play an elf with 'that background' and that you refuse to do so implies the background argument is likely a fig leaf in service of the earlier mentioned agenda.

That's the sort of disingenuousness I don't abide. You could actually be consistent if you say that you just don't think are different enough even considering all non biological aspects and that would be fine, cause that's literally the answer. You don't need to devalue your own argument by tackling on a bad point like biological essentialism.

No disingenuousness at all. Each allied race is differentiated from it's parent in it's own way. It is the pro High Elf community who strive again and again to find a chink in each pairing in an attempt to validate their own hypothesis, that the exiles should not have been ruled out and are deserving of an allied race spot.

All Allied races needs to be different in some profound respect from their parent, in a way that the parent cannot replicate and the Allied race cannot reverse. The exiles fail this test. And they will always fail this test. Any change you imagine for them, stance, or tattoos, or hairstyles, all could be replicated by a Blood Elf. But turning purple and sprouting head tentacles? That isn't something you can do for a day and switch back.

- - - Updated - - -

That's already a thing. Blood elves are our high elves. The high elf race is already a Horde thing, and in fact they are a core Horde race who are playable on the Horde.

There are two biologically distinct groups of thalassian elves on Azeroth. Only two.

There are the elves who are bound to the Sunwell, fated to physically shift under it's influence to golden eyes in the fullness of time. The vast majority of these Elves are the Blood Elves. There are a few rebels exiled from Quel'thalas, but these rebels are no more a different race than the Defias Brotherhood or the Syndicate are a different race of Humans.

Then there are the elves who were transformed by the void, who now have their own path and their own destiny ahead of them.

These two groups form a nice thematic dichotomy representative of the coming struggle between the light and the void that will form the basis of a wow expansion one of these days. The Void Elves and the light based Blood Elves may have an interesting story in that period.

[Beloren]

That's already a thing. Blood elves are our high elves. The high elf race is already a Horde thing, and in fact they are a core Horde race who are playable on the Horde.

Yes, I edited it i think after you saw it, ...

I meant the faction of high elves. One of the factions of high elves could easily join the horde. Right now the Silver Covenant is an alliance faction of high elves, but it's not the only one.

If one of the other factions of high elves join the horde as their own High elf group, maintaining their principles etc.... = BLUE EYES BABY !!!!!! !!!

- - - Updated - - -

Remember it is "factions" that become playable - which is why we can have humans and Kul'tirans. Most of the playble races can be successfully argued as being different biologically, even if they're of the same species group - like Night elf and nightborne, or void elf and blood elf, Zandalari and Darkspear etc - but they don't have to be necessarily. Humans and Gilneans and Forsaken are the same biolgoically. Forsaken are just an undead state of human, same genetics, so are Gilneans, even the oonones that are worgen, the cruse allows the transformation so they become altered, it's like a magical morph - like when druids go into bear form, are they genetically half bear half their original race? Has their roiginal race DNA changed? No, it hasn't.
@Obelisk Kai

[Frenchvince]

There are two biologically distinct groups of thalassian elves on Azeroth. Only two.

There are the elves who are bound to the Sunwell, fated to physically shift under it's influence to golden eyes in the fullness of time. The vast majority of these Elves are the Blood Elves. There are a few rebels exiled from Quel'thalas, but these rebels are no more a different race than the Defias Brotherhood or the Syndicate are a different race of Humans.

Then there are the elves who were transformed by the void, who now have their own path and their own destiny ahead of them.

These two groups form a nice thematic dichotomy representative of the coming struggle between the light and the void that will form the basis of a wow expansion one of these days. The Void Elves and the light based Blood Elves may have an interesting story in that period.

The void elves and the lightforged draenei are already the force of the alliance which represents the void and the light.
We don't need the blood elves ...

There's a story that's still going on, you know, that of the Silver Covenant VS Sunreaver.
From what we saw at BFA, the Sunreaver want their revenge, we are waiting for the next battle.
It could be much more interesting.

[FlubberPuddy]

Well, they added void elves instead of alliance high elves. In a follow up interview they stated that alliance high elves would blur faction lines. So, blizzard implement a form of alliance high elf in a sensible way (to them).. aka void elves.

They've never said Void Elves are the replacement for Alliance High Elves so I'm not sure what adding Void Elves has to do with it. It's just as if they said they consider Dark Irons a better AR candidate over Wildhammer for BFA.

They also said 'anything's possible but no plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race.' Not that they will never be available and Void Elves are your Alliance High Elves or anything of that sort.

[Broflake]

The argument remains the same, the identity of the factions.
Alleria has an appearance that represents the high-elf farstrider, so it's going to be difficult now to allow the horde players to have the same thing.
I don't think Blizzard agrees that the horde will end up with full of Alleria's clones..

The argument you are holding is unfounded. You aremaking the claim it represents high elf far striders whenno such organization exists.
The only one with said tattoo is Alleria, who is not a part of the Silver Covenant. There really is not basis for your argument.

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't seen Steelweaver since WOD. Wonder if he still has blue eyes now. Maybe he's dead.

He still has blue eyes. He is in the blood elf camp in Suramar.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope.

Not facetious. That a Blood Elf can wear blue armor means as much as a Void Elf wearing red/black armor and then trying to call themselves a blood knight or some such.

The point seems to have missed you.

- - - Updated - - -

That's not what I am saying; what I am saying is that AR either reuse assets (models, animations) or fantasy/setting/lore. All AR fall on either of these camps, none of them is something entirely "new"

Oh that is certainly true. Outside of KT, everyone reuses something.

My issue with your argument is that you drone about game design when NB/NE just fail at that. They are too similar, what I am saying is that is the animation what makes them more different than their model itself, without the animation, they would just fail at being recognizable different.

Again, so we are clear; I am Not saying that animations are the most relevant aspect in general regarding model design, I am pointing out how in the case of the NB/NE, which the models just fail to make a meaningful difference by themselves, is the animation that adds more differentiation than the model differences. This whole argument is specifically related to how little divergence there is in AR in general, how they are copies of existing assets and not new.

I would have to disagree with you, because animations are so easily overlooked in gameplay because players seldom look over a model and go "okay theanimation is different so this means X".
It really just falls down to the minor details in appearance. As much as they are similar, those minor differences are enough. Similar to how what separates a void elf and blood elf is purely color

You are missing the point. What I am saying is that any of these things -except stance cause you know, that's behavioral- are no different than the difference between different human ethnicities in game; so the point of "what is a race" in wow is highly inconsistent. There's just no consistent litmus test that says "with enough bilogical differences, you become a different race"

I would argue its because people are not simply taking it by a case by case basis. If you go "same model remains on its faction" well nightborne and void elves break it.
If you go "well if you're the same race you stay with your faction" vulpera break it.
It is better to simply look at the situation and say "does this make sense and if so, how is it justified?".
Story wise, nightborne and void elves are a different race from their parents.
Design wise. Same thing different modifications





Don't you see the irony? In your own differentiation of the Mag'har you spend more time talking about their cultural differences, which we both know aren't biological!

Your acceptance of HMT is entirely discretional, and your interpretation off mechagnomes being "biologically different" is just wrong, cause again, chopping off your extremeties doesn't make you "biologically different", less so change your race.

The whole concept of "race" in WoW is ridiculously inconsistent and only serves a gameplay purpose. You -and really anyone- are setting yourself for failure trying to find a consistent in universe definition of "race" in WoW.



Holy macarel! Do you get that "could be" is not the same than "it is", right?



Oh so you do get is not just about a biological argument. You yourself are aware that is not just a biological factor what makes the differences as you stated above, so why peddle the flawed argument anyway?

That's the sort of disingenuousness I don't abide. You could actually be consistent if you say that you just don't think are different enough even considering all non biological aspects and that would be fine, cause that's literally the answer. You don't need to devalue your own argument by tackling on a bad point like biological essentialism.[/QUOTE]

[ddi2]

High elves are trolls, you heard it here first!

Which are waiting for people on the Horde side of things.

Did you really hear it here first, that High Elves are Trolls?

That's already a thing. Blood elves are our high elves. The high elf race is already a Horde thing, and in fact they are a core Horde race who are playable on the Horde.

Pretty sure Blood Elves are your Blood Elves.

Let alone that the argument of "why not just make high elves different" falls flat on its face because void elves are literally the "different" suggestion.
Repeatedly saying you can make them different is completely ignoring the void elves existing. That is your design difference.

The only problem is that these "different" high elves are one of the furthest races from High Elves on the Alliance. Draenei are more similar to High Elves than Void Elves are.

[Broflake]

That's the reason it's pointless to discuss against.

Anti-argument: They look the same/too similar

Counter: Ok, here's ideas to make them look different.

Anti-argument: You can't change them because they're the same.

Counter: Kul'Tirans were same up until Legion, Blizzard changed their model on a whim to add more variety and when deciding to make them an AR.

Anti-argument: You still can't change them because they're the same race.

Counter: So is every Allied Race sans Vulpera.

It's just a "Ring Around the Rosie" situation, keeps going never stops. Thus no sense in continuing it. I'd rather present suggestions/arguments to Blizzard than randos who are not looking to compromise in any way.

That's probably because you substituted the counter response to Kul Tirans.

Kul Tirans are still humans, and humans, go to the Alliance faction.
Let alone that the argument of "why not just make high elves different" falls flat on its face because void elves are literally the "different" suggestion.
Repeatedly saying you can make them different is completely ignoring the void elves existing. That is your design difference.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty sure Blood Elves are your Blood Elves.

They're still high elves just under a different name. That "race" is being represented in some way already. It can't be ignored.

[ddi2]

They're still high elves just under a different name. That "race" is being represented in some way already. It can't be ignored.

Why I, who would like to play High Elves, would care about Void Elves representing anything when it's literally the last race on the Alliance I would be willing to play?

[Strippling]

They've never said Void Elves are the replacement for Alliance High Elves so I'm not sure what adding Void Elves has to do with it. It's just as if they said they consider Dark Irons a better AR candidate over Wildhammer for BFA.

Then please enlighten me as to why to made void elves a playable race (out of thin air) rather than alliance high elves? And clearly they viewed DID as a better AR candidate than Wildhammer, hence why DID is its own AR and wildhammer is just a customization option to bronzebeard dwarves. If Wildhammer were viewed as the better candidate than they would have been the AR and DID the customization option. And I'm not a betting man but i'm willing to bet the reason they deemed DID a better AR candidate is that visually there was more to dinstinguish them from regular dwarves, as opposed to wildhammer who were literally the same but with tattoos.

They also said 'anything's possible but no plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race.' Not that they will never be available and Void Elves are your Alliance High Elves or anything of that sort.

You do you, but anyone who is willing to not be so naive will recognize the message blizzard have given us. That message is that alliance high elves are too similar to horde high elves (as they are literally the exact same race) and as such they will not be playable in order to avoid blurring faction lines. Their words confirm this and their actions too (hence why to this day they're still not playable). A high elf in the wow universe is represented via the blood elves. Watering down that identity is not a good option.

[Broflake]

The only problem is that these "different" high elves are one of the furthest races from High Elves on the Alliance. Draenei are more similar to High Elves than Void Elves are.

So?
If one is saying "we can make them different", then what is the issue with void elves? They're literally different in design which meets your suggestion.
If the issue is "well by storyline wise they aren't thehigh elves we want", then what is dis-satisfying about the void elves stating they never agreed with their people joining the Horde? That is literally what the high elves did.
If the issue is "they weren't loyal to the alliance the whole time", neither were the high elves. It took 2 expansions before we saw a high elf group.
If the issue is "well they had a background as blood elves", then what is the issue with instead asking for Blizzard to expand their lore?

- - - Updated - - -

Why I, who would like to play High Elves, would care about Void Elves representing anything when it's literally the last race on the Alliance I would be willing to play?

That post you are referring to is referring to blood elves, who are high elves, just with a different name.
Void elves may not be what you want, but it is clear that what you want would just end up a copy paste.

The issue witht he high elf request is that it wants basically a blood elf.
Offering to alter the design changes them from what they were and defined in terms of being a high elf. In which case, play a void elf.
If you want the story, request a void elf expansion.

[Strippling]

Pretty sure Blood Elves are your Blood Elves.

Take it up with Chris Metzen. He's the one who said "blood elves are our high elves". Unless of course you're suggesting that Chris Metzen is wrong?

[FlubberPuddy]

Then please enlighten me as to why to made void elves a playable race (out of thin air) rather than alliance high elves? And clearly they viewed DID as a better AR candidate than Wildhammer, hence why DID is its own AR and wildhammer is just a customization option to bronzebeard dwarves. If Wildhammer were viewed as the better candidate than they would have been the AR and DID the customization option. And I'm not a betting man but i'm willing to bet the reason they deemed DID a better AR candidate is that visually there was more to dinstinguish them from regular dwarves, as opposed to wildhammer who were literally the same but with tattoos.

Nope, like I said I won't engage in circular discussion. I am stating facts in the quotes you've replied. You are free to devise your own leap of logics but as I've said before that hasn't helped folks who want certain options for Blood Elves lately.

You do you, but anyone who is willing to not be so naive will recognize the message blizzard have given us. That message is that alliance high elves are too similar to horde high elves (as they are literally the exact same race) and as such they will not be playable in order to avoid blurring faction lines. Their words confirm this and their actions too (hence why to this day they're still not playable). A high elf in the wow universe is represented via the blood elves. Watering down that identity is not a good option.

Same to you, you do you as well. Void Elves have never been stated to fulfill the High Elves the Alliance has been requesting and Ion, nor any Blizzard employee has ever re-stated what Ion said two years ago.

In fact there is a transcript of Ion in that same year at Blizzcon 2018 telling someone who wants High Elves that "the door hasn't closed" and "just because they're not in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever."

Just like another fan at Blizzcon 2020 asked about darker skins for BEs and was told the truth as well.



- - - Updated - - -

And if anyone wishes to say it's fake they can go ahead and link this pic to Ion and ask for confirmation over Twitter DM, as I know some people like Obelisk have done that in the past

[Kyriani]

Then please enlighten me as to why to made void elves a playable race (out of thin air) rather than alliance high elves?

While I am not weighing in on the pro or anti side of things, and I most certainly cannot speak for the devs, I can attempt to answer this as far as what I have observed. Based on previous dev interviews, it seems to me that Blizzard originally considered Alliance High Elves as an allied race, but after they completed Alleria's story arc for Argus and (by Ion's own admission) their internal team gushed over it and Alleria's transformation, they decided to go with the "rule of cool" and do Void Elves instead.

I honestly believe Ion and the dev team were so enamored with their Void Elf concept that they were convinced that Void Elves would have appealed to those asking for Alliance High Elves much more than just "boring blood elves with blue eyes". Obviously the response was not what they expected and calls for playable Alliance High Elves continue unabated.

Also remember that the first four allied races were very low effort compared to the ones we got in BFA proper (likely due to most dev team focus being towards BFA at that point). Nightborne got the most effort (model, texture, and animation work) but ended up with the worst results out of all the initial four, while Void Elves got less effort than Nightborne but seem to be higher quality because they were primarily just a palette swap of existing Blood Elf textures and hairstyles with minor alterations and a few additional unique hair styles.

High Mountain and Lightforged were the bottom of the barrel for effort but look decent enough (even if they have far too few customization options IMO), thanks to basically being very minor variants of their parent races and would have served much better as simple customization options for Tauren and Draenei. I think Blizzard realized that High Mountain and Lightforged really should have been customization options and not allied races and that's why Wildhammer are being relegated to customization options in Shadowlands.

If Blizzard ever decides to make an effort to appease those asking for playable Alliance High Elves (and I do stress IF), I think the most likely avenue they would pursue would simply be giving Void Elves a broader selection of skin and hair colors (though likely not exactly the same ones Blood Elves have). They could easily justify this by pointing to the High Elf wayfarers in Telogrus and explaining that the Ren'Dorei are increasing their numbers through the method Alleria used rather than trying to replicate the accident that created the initial batch of Void Elves. Players would then have the option to RP being one of the "originals" with blue/purple skin/hair, or one of the "newbies" with whatever new skin/hair options Blizzard deigns to add (assuming they go this route).

Less likely would be Alliance High Elves as their own allied race, and while I think Half-Elves could have worked, I'm not sure Blizzard would want to risk trying to appease those asking for Alliance High Elves with yet another race that's "kind of are high elves" but aren't, though I personally think they would have served well to carry on the Alliance High Elf legacy if they were done well and done right.

Ultimately, the easiest course of action for Blizzard is to simply expand the Void Elf palette options and give some minor lore nods towards how the Ren'Dorei are expanding their population. And while Ion did say that new customization options were only for core races at Shadowlands launch, he also indicated that adding customization options is an ongoing process and that later Shadowlands patches may add more customization options for allied races as well. Only time will tell if anything actually happens in regards to Alliance High Elves though.

[Frenchvince]

The argument you are holding is unfounded. You aremaking the claim it represents high elf far striders whenno such organization exists.
The only one with said tattoo is Alleria, who is not a part of the Silver Covenant. There really is not basis for your argument.

You already have customization options to look like the leader of the blood elves (a veiled eye).
Why do you want to be like Alleria who looks like the high elf of the alliance?
I do not understand your request, knowing that the blood elves are no longer high elves because they have evolved.

The faction identity argument does not only work one way.

[matrix123mko]

That's funny because Vereesa (you know... The Ranger General of the Silver Covenant, not a random raid boss with no background) also says blood elves are unworthy of their heritage.

Elisande has a background of stopping a Legion invasion and ruling Suramar for over 10000 years. Veressa is just a foolish fruit of nepotism that used last remmants of her family's glory to get power over a group of traitors.

- - - Updated - - -

Yea I immediately thought him too. Though in saying that I get the point he was making, that generally blood elves are represented with reds, golds and blacks. But despite that there are blood elves sporting other colors such as blues and silvers.

Yes. Most often they pick red.