[Discussion] Mage class - What would we like to see happen to the class in Shadowland

[nickseng]

None of that changes how the core of the spec scales better into late expansion than at the start. A big portion of Ignite damage is still going to be Pyroblast, and if you aren't getting those to crit, you'll have less Hot Streaks and less Ignite damage overall. You don't need to stack crit to 60%+ like you did back in the day, but the spec will still always shine in the latter half of an expansion versus the start...which was my point.

Can we agree that Crit matter less during combustion (it does convert to mastery, hence less and not none)?
If you look at a fire mage's damage profile, you'd see peaks during combutions, and low valleys outside of out it. Almost all of our damage is focused into that combustion window, and there, crit really doesn't matter as much as the other stats.
You could have over 50-60% crit, but this would only really be useful outside combustion and execute, and it's still not going to matter.

[Swizzle]

Can we agree that Crit matter less during combustion (it does convert to mastery, hence less and not none)?
If you look at a fire mage's damage profile, you'd see peaks during combutions, and low valleys outside of out it. Almost all of our damage is focused into that combustion window, and there, crit really doesn't matter as much as the other stats.
You could have over 50-60% crit, but this would only really be useful outside combustion and execute, and it's still not going to matter.

I'll agree that it matters less, but as long as it converts your value to excess Mastery, it won't ever be useless. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about Crit the stat being what the spec is about, I'm talking about the mechanic. Blizz just realized that making a pure DPS spec wait over a year to be able to function isn't the best idea.

[Swizzle]

Sooo, how does everyone feel about them possibly taking MI away again?

[Obelisk Kai]

Sooo, how does everyone feel about them possibly taking MI away again?

Firstly, god bless Preach for using Fire Mages as the example of a crippled base class design. It was heartening to see there may be some class iterations incoming as soon as all the active systems are in place.

In response to your specific question, is there any news regarding that? Was something said in the interview I missed? Or is this a hypothesis you've put forward?

I would be disappointed with Mirror Image being removed from baseline. It's role in Shadowlands looks ideal, a baseline damage spell on a two minute cooldown with minor utility. It's fantastic for class fantasy and it would help shore up some specs in mythic+ where our cooldown focused gameplay leads to us sucking for large chunk of content until we get to our respective moments of glory.

Mirror Image doesn't function as a talent because nobody takes it. And it's pre talent iteration was a highly niche button with little appreciable impact once threat was changed.

No, Mirror Images becoming baseline is one of the positive changes we are receiving in Shadowlands. I would prefer to bank that change as a win and leave it as is.

[Swizzle]

Firstly, god bless Preach for using Fire Mages as the example of a crippled base class design. It was heartening to see there may be some class iterations incoming as soon as all the active systems are in place.

In response to your specific question, is there any news regarding that? Was something said in the interview I missed? Or is this a hypothesis you've put forward?

I would be disappointed with Mirror Image being removed from baseline. It's role in Shadowlands looks ideal, a baseline damage spell on a two minute cooldown with minor utility. It's fantastic for class fantasy and it would help shore up some specs in mythic+ where our cooldown focused gameplay leads to us sucking for large chunk of content until we get to our respective moments of glory.

Mirror Image doesn't function as a talent because nobody takes it. And it's pre talent iteration was a highly niche button with little appreciable impact once threat was changed.

No, Mirror Images becoming baseline is one of the positive changes we are receiving in Shadowlands. I would prefer to bank that change as a win and leave it as is.

Maybe Mirror Images could become a talent again. A survivability or utility button rather than another damage cooldown.

Last line of the interview transcript. Personally I have no idea why they would want to remove a baseline ability that was originally introduced and functioned well as a baseline ability. Hell, the row it's currently on doesn't even make sense. How does it compete with RoP or IF?

[Mefistophelis]

The only thing I want to see is a rotational help for Frost. You know it sucks when you got 5+ frostbolts without any procs and hitting like a wet noodle doesn't help.
Fire has its own "bad luck protection" in Enhanced Pyrotechnics, so all I'd ask is for the same treatment for Frost.
Just a stacking buff that gives you +X% chance to proc Fingers of Frost or Brain Freeze every time you fail to gain one, if you have none of either of them, stacking up.
Also maybe some kind of ranged AOE talent for Arcane, I would like to play more of it but the melee aoe playstyle and the rune anchoring just isn't to my liking.

[Obelisk Kai]

Last line of the interview transcript. Personally I have no idea why they would want to remove a baseline ability that was originally introduced and functioned well as a baseline ability. Hell, the row it's currently on doesn't even make sense. How does it compete with RoP or IF?

That is worrying, making Mirror Images baseline was one of the few positive decisions they've made so far and it would be a bad idea to change that. Mirror Images should be designed to scale off our power but not our cooldowns, so combustion, arcane power and icy veins wouldn't affect them but they would still grow stronger as we grow stronger. That way it can function as an independent cooldown we wouldn't need to factor into our spec specific cooldowns.

[nickseng]

That is worrying, making Mirror Images baseline was one of the few positive decisions they've made so far and it would be a bad idea to change that. Mirror Images should be designed to scale off our power but not our cooldowns, so combustion, arcane power and icy veins wouldn't affect them but they would still grow stronger as we grow stronger. That way it can function as an independent cooldown we wouldn't need to factor into our spec specific cooldowns.

You need context.
They were talking about how arcane had so many buttons to push before going into their burst (MI, ToTM, RoP, CU, AP, etc), and the designer suggested a possible solution could be MI being changed to a more utility button rather than dps, and make it a talent to help with the above problem.

[dileria]

General Changes
Interrupts:
“Castable while casting other Spells” - Every Single interrupt in the Game.
Interrupts should not Interrupt your own spell. Simple QoL Change, its off gcd anyways already… DemonHunters are even rewarded with resources for interrupting sth. Casters are punished by interrupting their own cast.
Melees are favored in m+ anyways, why not improve the caster situation in m+. I want to help my team with interrupting, but please dont punish me for it.
Mirror Image :
Imho one of the coolest looking mage spells… zero spec interaction. Be Creative pls. Succesful Mirror Casts refund 1% Mana(arcane), reduce the fireblast cooldown by0,2secs (Fire), have a 25% Chance to create an Icicle (Frost). (Just a simple idea)
Talents:
In my opinion Talents Row should either concentrate on modifying existing spells OR give you a new spell. Having multiple Rows with passive choices AND active Spell choices can easily double the amount of “important” dps keybinds, depending on talent choices. Always feel Clunky to keybind this sort of talent trees. (this is a fundumental design philosophy, pls keep reading even if you dont agree on this one :P)

Fire Mage:
These Suggestions involve a lot of FireBlast Charge refunding, this can be exchanged with Cooldown Reduction by x secs for FireBlasts. Which is pretty much the same, but has a better haste scaling. (Balancing Numbers / Dmg is the easier part after improving the gameplay first)

Fire is a fast spec which relies on weaving crit - fireblast combos to do dmg.
This makes Flame On the best talent by default. Delete it or make 3 Charges Baseline and the -2s cooldown reduction is the talent option.

Flamestrike: (give Flamestrike some love, its not all about Pyroblast)
I think Flamestrike is one of the most unsatisfying spells to press in Wow right now…Hardcasting a 4 sec cast, praying that the tank doesnt have to kite (12 secs if including Flame patch)
The mastery/crit scaling is also bad - Flamestrike doesnt synergize with the Fire Spec at all (except consuming a Hot Streak…)
You have to look up different guides and sim yourself, before you even know if pressing that big fiery aoe spell on a big group is worthwhile. Just improve the mastery Scaling. Dont let the single target rotation outscale flamestrike with enough mastery. (Please)
Crit scaling is also easy to implement. For every target which is critically hit by flamestrike the cooldown of fireblast is reduced by 20-25%.
4 Targets+ -> You better press that Flamestrike, and the crit scaling makes chaining Fireblasts/Instant Flamestrikes possible. Synergy archieved.

A Spec which is based around crits, doesnt scale well with crit rating. Not Cool.
“Always deals a critical Strike” - I do not like that sentence. Because everytime i read that sentence it automaticly devalues any crit rating i have. (Combust being the only exception with its modifier)
Solutions
a) Autocrits scale with crit (Like Combustion for example-> more crit rating -> bigger autocrits)
b) Stop the Autocrits. We dont need them. We need Hot Streak Procs.
-> Fireblast doesnt autocrit anymore, but contributes to our Hot Streak Mechanic.
-> Scorch <30% doesnt autocrit anymore, but contributes to our Hot Streak Mechanic.
-> Firestarter: Fireball and Pyroblast Crits on Targets >90% refund one Fireblast Charge. (Big lucid like Combust Opener, instead of the clunky waiting till 90% until i can finally use combustion…)
Its easy to solve. Makes gearing and gameplay smoother. Win - Win (-Win)

While im at it, also Change Pyromaniac. Consuming a Hot Streak has a 8% chance to refund a Fireblast charge. Simple Change, better gameplay by giving the Player more choices and interactions.

Row 4
Flame On: -2 or -3 Sec Cooldown on Fireblast. Thats it. OR Replace with sth completely different.
Alexs. Fury: DB doesnt autocrit. It CAN crit, but Crits dont heat up, instead DB contributes to Hot Streak by reducing FireBlasts Cooldown by 2 Secs per target hit.
Phoenix Flame: It looks amazing and no one uses it. Shame Shame Shame !
The Spell doesnt need that auto crit. It CAN crit on the main target, this will contribute to Hot Streak, but Splash Dmg Crits do not contribute to Hot Streak.
Phoenix Flame refunds one Fireblast Charge instead. (oh and the Cooldown should scale with Haste)
Every Choice can be useful in different Situations now. Burst DMG needed -> Phoenix Flames. Longer ST Fights -> Flame on. Constant aoe dmg -> Alex Fury.

Row 5:
Flame Patch new: Flamestrike leaves a burning burning Flamepatch on the Targets. Damaging the Target for 8 Seconds. Stacks but doesnt refresh previous Stacks.
Conflag: Stays the Same - passive dmg, bit boring, but we have bigger issues to solve first.
Living Bomb: One little Change - the first explosion (4secs after the cast) refunds one Fireblast charge. (Living bomb is currently so bad dmg wise, that it only shines in REALLY big groups. With the fireblast refund we can finally use our Spell we specced into, even if the other talent choices might be slightly better.)
Every Talent has its place again. Constant AoE-> Flamepatch. Another Instant with some AoE and single target uses -> Living Bomb. Constant Singletarget/Patchwork fight (with some rnd aoe dmg) -> Conflag.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Have you ever tried to sim your mage? Have you ever watched a Method dude sim their mage? It's a fact that fire scales better than frost, and it's one of the reasons that it is usually not the go-to spec in the first tier (yes there are other reasons too as you pointed out and I'm not here to say which of the reasons is the most important). I don't know where you dug up that "not objectively true", because it almost certainly is objectively true.

Play fire right now in bfa without using neck essences and mastery corruption, and see how well it "scales" compared to frost or arcane

Crit is important, but the spec gives you enough for free that it doesn't need to be stacked. Take out the bonuses from Critical Mass etc and you WOULD stack Crit because, again, the spec genuinely doesn't function without it.

Fire right now does 90% of its damage during combustion (where crit is the weakest stat you can have) and 10% damage outside of combustion (where crit is stronger but still weak due to the combination of fire blast and fireball crit blp). If they removed Critical Mass tomorrow, nothing would change about fire stat priorities because crit is so weak compared to every other stat during combustion.

[Obelisk Kai]

You need context.
They were talking about how arcane had so many buttons to push before going into their burst (MI, ToTM, RoP, CU, AP, etc), and the designer suggested a possible solution could be MI being changed to a more utility button rather than dps, and make it a talent to help with the above problem.

No I get the context, Fire has the same issue right now with having to manage your trinkets and essences before you start dealing damage and I can see how Mirror Images on top of that could cause issues but it's a little concerning Mirror Images is the spell brought up.

I get it's currently in a state of flux, but as Preach said it's visually interesting spell that really dovetails with the class fantasy. I prefer it to be a baseline dps spell rather than a utility option, and I also like that it the images stay around for a fairly lengthy period of time (although I can see that forty second duration being trimmed). Personally I don't think the issue is Mirror Images in this particular case, but the number of cooldowns you have to press to get going.

We have to wait and see though. Whilst Mirror Images is currently uncertain, Morgan Day's comments fill me with a degree of hope that there is a serious class pass coming to deal with the problem classes.

While right now Mages do big numbers, we are a problem class because our core design is, for want of a better word, rotten. They need to bolt on a considerable amount of borrowed power to make our class playable with each expansion (which is like shoring up the rotten walls of a decaying house) and then we have to play nice with this by selecting a cookie-cutter talent build.

If they can fix our class so that the core design of each spec is sound without borrowed power, and if we can get some meaningful choice in our talent trees, alpha will have been a success. But we've been in a bad spot for many years now. That isn't even hyperbole. People are talking Mists of Pandaria class design as if it was the best thing ever, but Mages had a terrible time during that expansion, exemplified as when they literally gave up trying to fix us before WOD and just inflated the damage of spec specific dots to keep us ticking over whilst acknowledging dots aren't really a Mage thing. Legion and BFA disguised the rot with borrowed power, but as they end and those systems are removed the rot just becomes apparent again.

I am hopeful Blizzard will now tackle this head on. Bake into the class the talents and powers that make it function. Improve or remove talents that never taken. Implement new talents that offer genuine choice.

[Dizzeeyooo]

If they can fix our class so that the core design of each spec is sound without borrowed power, and if we can get some meaningful choice in our talent trees, alpha will have been a success.

This is how their expansion class design works now, the core is empty/minimalist and you grind your class changes over the course of the expansion as borrowed power, lose them all at the end and start again from the same empty baseline each time. It would be nice if they could "fix" classes to not rely on borrowed power to function, but when its literally their design choice now then there isn't really anything for them to fix.

[dileria]

Fire right now does 90% of its damage during combustion (where crit is the weakest stat you can have) and 10% damage outside of combustion (where crit is stronger but still weak due to the combination of fire blast and fireball crit blp). If they removed Critical Mass tomorrow, nothing would change about fire stat priorities because crit is so weak compared to every other stat during combustion.

Those guaranteed Crits devalue Crit Rating. (Scorch Execute -> Crit Rating only useful for those instant Pyros inbetween the Scorch Spam)
Or sth like fireblast always critting .... Zero Crit Value on that Spell.

I want to Pick up that 90% Number. Its a bit exaggerated, but depending on the encounter its true from time to time. (Hivemind for example)

I simmed my char and wrote down the first two minutes second by second.

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/1c0XIdY"><a href="//imgur.com/a/1c0XIdY">Fire Mage 2 Min DMG Profile</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



https://imgur.com/a/1c0XIdY

About 30 Secs into the Fight i did 50% of the Dmg i will do after 2 mins. This is "OP" since Fight mechanics are encouraging burst over sustained dmg. But it doesnt feel op at all, if you have to switch targets, have no combust up and just tickle the new target.

Edit:
Added Link since i haven't figuered out yet, how to insert pictures

[facefist]

Play fire right now in bfa without using neck essences and mastery corruption, and see how well it "scales" compared to frost or arcane

Ehh what is even that argument.. "play the class without X and see how well it scales". Why should anyone care about a situation where you dont use essences and corruption because you know, those happen to be on the game?

Its a simple fact that fire has higher stat weights so I dont know what your post proves about the scaling.. I just think you dont understand simming.

[Mirishka]

I would like to see specs with utility like this pop up, instead of just gogo pure damage.

The amount of rage would be... un-quantifiable. "Hey Arcane mages, great news! You now do shit damage. BUT!! You buff the damage of all your friends, isn't that great?" I am fairly sure that people would literally cook Ion and eat his flesh.

I'm all for a utility/support role but it would be better for an all new class, rather than gut a bunch of specs that people already know/expect to be competitive.

- - - Updated - - -

Ehh what is even that argument.. "play the class without X and see how well it scales". Why should anyone care about a situation where you dont use essences and corruption because you know, those happen to be on the game?

Its a simple fact that fire has higher stat weights so I dont know what your post proves about the scaling.. I just think you dont understand simming.

"Warrior tank without a shield and see how much damage you block!"

[Swizzle]

Those guaranteed Crits devalue Crit Rating. (Scorch Execute -> Crit Rating only useful for those instant Pyros inbetween the Scorch Spam)
Or sth like fireblast always critting .... Zero Crit Value on that Spell.

This is what I don't get about this argument. "Fire isn't based around Crit because most of its damage comes from a period where it has guaranteed Crit!" Well, no duh. You get a period where you're casting nothing but instant cast spells, with guaranteed crits on Pyro, as well as it converting your Crit into Mastery which further amplifies the damage. Further more, the fact that your damage comes from instant spam is what raises Haste's value as it reduces your GCD so you can fit more casts in during the Combustion window. So yes, Crit is devalued as a stat, but it's not like they put Spirit on your gear and you want to Reforge it away. It's still REALLY good for your core spec mechanics, but due to game design, you need other stats just a bit more.

[dileria]

"Fire isn't based around Crit because most of its damage comes from a period where it has guaranteed Crit!"

I didnt say that. Im saying that guaranteed Crits devalue Crit rating as long as there is no compensation for it. (For example Combustion converting Crit into Mastery)
Why would i want Crit Rating if i have 100% Crit Chance anyways?
Ofc ill take Crit Rating on my Gear, since i dont have those 100% crit windows all the time. Additional Crit Rating obviously increases my dmg output, BUT the Scaling of Crit Rating is hindered by 100% Crit mechanics. I dont know how to express myself better on that point.

Its the same for frost. As soon as you reach 33%(?) your shatter combo will crit 100% of the time. If you increase your crit chance further more your shatter combo wont do more dps (crit rating value = 0 for that shatter combo), but your casts inbetween still scale with crit. -> Crit Rating looses value after that breakpoint, but still increases your dps.

So my simple suggestions is that current autocrits contribute to the Hot streak mechanic, but dont autocrit anymore.
Where is the problem in changing Fireblasts tooltip into "Deals xx Dmg and Contributes to Hot Streak". With that we open up crit scaling on Fireblast.
OR give it the Chaos Bolt Treatment. "Deals xx Dmg and always Crit. Dmg is further increased by your critical hit chance"

[Dizzeeyooo]

This is what I don't get about this argument.

As long as you continue to switch effortlessly between talking about fire needing crit rating on gear to function, and fire having mechanics that involve spells critting, you probably never will get the argument tbh

"Warrior tank without a shield and see how much damage you block!"

Who knew shields were a bfa specific rental power never to be seen again after the expansion is over.

[Mirishka]

As long as you continue to switch effortlessly between talking about fire needing crit rating on gear to function, and fire having mechanics that involve spells critting, you probably never will get the argument tbh


Who knew shields were a bfa specific rental power never to be seen again after the expansion is over.

If only you had looked up, you might have seen the point as it passed over your head.

[Dizzeeyooo]

If only you had looked up, you might have seen the point as it passed over your head.

Your post doesn't actually have a point, since the person you quoted had zero point to begin with, so i'm not convinced that looking up would change anything tbh