Was hoping for massive Demo changes

[VinceVega]

Imagine you know an ability for years and one day wake up and it’s gone and another class has learned it. Incredibly stupid gameplay wise and lore wise.

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Cloak of shadows doesn’t fit rogue design, a class with no magical knowledge becomes immune to magic. Better remove it.

Portal cloaks and other things hurt mage class design. Better remove them.

Summoning stones outside dungeons hurt warlock class design. Better remove those too.

See how dumb that sounds? Every class and race have things that don’t fit but are there for gameplay reasons

Removing meta from locks made no sense once it was added. Dh could’ve had a different form, and I say that as a dh main

The two forms could co exist. The lock meta was very different. Rename it if you have to but it was a cool ability and fun warlock play style. Damn sure better than what followed

But the others is not a valid argument.
I i don't think it hurts them tbh.

None of them are a integral part of the class like your MAJOR cooldown.
I liked demo after they removed the form. Never really liked it. throwing piles of demons on the enemy on the other hand does.
And i don't think demo is really bad rigth now tbh.

[justandulas]

But the others is not a valid argument.
I i don't think it hurts them tbh.

None of them are a integral part of the class like your MAJOR cooldown.
I liked demo after they removed the form. Never really liked it. throwing piles of demons on the enemy on the other hand does.
And i don't think demo is really bad rigth now tbh.

I hate it’s play style now and that’s the rub. I don’t care if it was #1 dps and my imps we’re #2; babysitting a dozen tiny worthless summons is not fun for me. We aren’t necromancers

I’d rather have one super beefy demon than 15 baby demons.

I played demo lock from vanilla to legion, but could not stand the change to demon so went to dh

If they ever fix demo so it isn’t babysitting imp and dog armies I’d come back to it

Why they haven’t ever made permanent enslave demon a thing is beyond me. Should’ve been in since tbc

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

As i said, bring back MoP demonology, bring back dot snapshotting to make affliction fun to play again.

[Coraline Bat]

They are busy buffing the shit out of Affliction. Wait for Beta, if at all.

Nothing wrong with them focusing on the worst one first i suppose, and doing them one by one.

They did say theyre waiting until soul binds and such to be implemented in first before doing too much class stuff, which should be in the next few weeks.

If it gets to beta without anything then I would be worried >.<

As i said, bring back MoP demonology, bring back dot snapshotting to make affliction fun to play again.

I wouldnt count on snap shotting ever returning. It caused so many issues and limited what could be done in terms of items like trinkets and set bonus's.

[Nerovar]

I think many people were hoping for significant changes to their classes after two expansions of the same boring, dysfunctional class design. I just don't think Blizzard can do it. They threw away 12 years of class development in favour of their new vision of "sleek" and "improved" specs with their Legion overhauls which often don't even remotely resemble the same playstyle let alone capture the feeling of playing your class. If Shadowlands tells us anything it's that they're not willing or able to go back. This is it. A few unpruned abilities on a silver plate is their concession to all the people that complained for the last two expansions and spent all that time and energy to formulate constructive criticisms of Legion/BfA class design.

The only thing we can hope for is that in the near future they'll get some fresh devs in who'll do another overhaul of our classes which would probably come with the same issues.

When warlocks had meta, it changed spells, made them tankier, unlocked new abilities, on top of a standard damage increase. When DH got meta it became a haste increase. It's the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever.

Dark apotheosis can work the same as old meta without taking the ability back from DH.

Yeah, it's a sick joke. It's also a good example of past class design vs. current class design.

[BradicusRex]

It didn't come out of thin air. It was Gul'dan's knowledge, not Illidans, that allowed for this. Gul'dan is not a demon hunter. So... you're wrong again.

Yo Melusine, this is off topic, but your signature does not link to your characters any more...I was trying to check out your Warlock and got Russian'd.

[Coraline Bat]

I think many people were hoping for significant changes to their classes after two expansions of the same boring, dysfunctional class design. I just don't think Blizzard can do it. They threw away 12 years of class development in favour of their new vision of "sleek" and "improved" specs with their Legion overhauls which often don't even remotely resemble the same playstyle let alone capture the feeling of playing your class. If Shadowlands tells us anything it's that they're not willing or able to go back. This is it. A few unpruned abilities on a silver plate is their concession to all the people that complained for the last two expansions and spent all that time and energy to formulate constructive criticisms of Legion/BfA class design.

The only thing we can hope for is that in the near future they'll get some fresh devs in who'll do another overhaul of our classes which would probably come with the same issues.



Yeah, it's a sick joke.

Really is, Even if they just removed the old model and let us keep the glyphed version which doesnt look as dated.

[Shandalar]

Dont worry, we just have to wait to the next expansion. There are only 3 years.

[Melusine]

Please show me where Guldan became a giant demon.

Please show me where Illidan knew ANY of the shit traditional to the Demon Hunter. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is spectral sight, maybe Chaos strike, or some attack that is not obvious, but did he have wings he could glide with? No. What about eye beams? Nope. Demon Spikes? Try again. Blade dance? Doubtful. Immolation aura? Nope. Metamorphosis? That's a great big negatory there, ghost rider. All the other abilities came from the skull of Gul'dan. ALL of them!! Including metamorphosis. That was the biggest, most obvious thing Illidan learned. For that matter, there was a variety of magic similar to eye beams that Illidan learned..... as a mage. I might add, he lost that ability when Sargeras seared his eyes, but who cares.

And to answer that question, Gul'dan began changing into a demon during the Nighthold fight. The longer the fight goes, the more his back starts creating those back protrusions like a Vengeance demon hunter.

What I can tell you is, Warlocks entering the Wrath of the Lich King knew how to cast Metamorphosis, and it would turn us into a nathrezir form a demon. I'm guessing Gul'dan was a much higher level warlock when he died, so, it is not outside the realm of possibilities he knew how to do it also, if all it took was a level 62 specced into it to have it. And it was perfected by Kanrethad Ebonlocke.

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Yo Melusine, this is off topic, but your signature does not link to your characters any more...I was trying to check out your Warlock and got Russian'd.

I server transferred, so, you'll have that. I haven't been raiding with him, or doing much with him as of late, because I hate the BFA iteration of warlock, and I mean every spec, but he is currently 453 Demo, 3 X baleful Invocation, 2 x Supreme Commander, I hate Implosion talent, because of its retarded nature, anyway, He's on Stormrage US and I couldn't get his original name, so the I in his name is an alt character I can't remember off the top of my head. Currently sitting in my kid's guild, Toto Bunny. I'm hoping to get him back off the shelf, but at the moment I am a resto Shaman on Dalaran US, name is now Terravolta, and a holy pally on Stormrage US named Chanderakara. Depending on what happens with warlocks will determine whether I care enough to play warlock.

[Saltysquidoon]

Please show me where Illidan knew ANY of the shit traditional to the Demon Hunter. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is spectral sight, maybe Chaos strike, or some attack that is not obvious, but did he have wings he could glide with? No. What about eye beams? Nope. Demon Spikes? Try again. Blade dance? Doubtful. Immolation aura? Nope. Metamorphosis? That's a great big negatory there, ghost rider. All the other abilities came from the skull of Gul'dan. ALL of them!! Including metamorphosis. That was the biggest, most obvious thing Illidan learned. For that matter, there was a variety of magic similar to eye beams that Illidan learned..... as a mage. I might add, he lost that ability when Sargeras seared his eyes, but who cares.

Illidan 100% had immo aura before he consumed the skull (as evidenced in WCIII), he had access to fel rush (as shown in the cavern of time instance in cata), Any ability tied to his tattoos (which he also possessed pre skull) and I would also argue any movement of physical based attack (other than glide) had nothing to do with the skull.

And to answer that question, Gul'dan began changing into a demon during the Nighthold fight. The longer the fight goes, the more his back starts creating those back protrusions like a Vengeance demon hunter.

That was AU gul'dan directly channelling the powers of Sargeras. Which has zero to do with MU gul'dan who died decades previous and had nothing to do with anything.

What I can tell you is, Warlocks entering the Wrath of the Lich King knew how to cast Metamorphosis, and it would turn us into a nathrezir form a demon. I'm guessing Gul'dan was a much higher level warlock when he died, so, it is not outside the realm of possibilities he knew how to do it also, if all it took was a level 62 specced into it to have it. And it was perfected by Kanrethad Ebonlocke.

Blizzard added meta the demo locks because at the time they had no intentions of adding DH's to the game (and indeed wouldn't for near a decade) and figured it would be a cool ability. You're ascribing a lore reason for a dev decision that the writers had to write around.


You want meta for locks? Cool sure add a CD that turns you into a demon and empowers your pets for the duration or whatever. Don't pretend meta isn't a DH ability because you need a lore reason to have the shiny toy.

[Nadiru]

Considering WoW's a game that has two Restoration specs, two Frost specs, and had two separate classes using the same spell, people are awful pissy about this one particular thing being duplicated.

[Xorzor]

Are Voidwalkers and Felguard still defensively weak like they are in BfA? They can't seem to take much punishment anymore.

[enigma77]

Considering WoW's a game that has two Restoration specs, two Frost specs, and had two separate classes using the same spell, people are awful pissy about this one particular thing being duplicated.

Including Blizzard. I guess they just hate Warlocks and dont want it to be a fun class.

[Saltysquidoon]

Including Blizzard. I guess they just hate Warlocks and dont want it to be a fun class.

If your enjoyment of an entire class is intrinsically tied to an ability demo locks will have not had (vanilla, tbc, legion, bfa, SL) longer then they will have had (Wrath, Cata, MoP, Wod) as of the release of shadowlands perhaps the DH as the class that posses said skill is the one for you.

[enigma77]

If your enjoyment of an entire class is intrinsically tied to an ability demo locks will have not had (vanilla, tbc, legion, bfa, SL) longer then they will have had (Wrath, Cata, MoP, Wod) as of the release of shadowlands perhaps the DH as the class that posses said skill is the one for you.

No absolutely not. I do have a DH alt and it's the most boring class in the game.

MoP/WoD demo was the peak of class design.

[Melusine]

Illidan 100% had immo aura before he consumed the skull (as evidenced in WCIII), he had access to fel rush (as shown in the cavern of time instance in cata), Any ability tied to his tattoos (which he also possessed pre skull) and I would also argue any movement of physical based attack (other than glide) had nothing to do with the skull.

Seems I stand corrected by one instance, possibly. As memory serves, immolation was an ability learned post-skull, but even if it isn't, Illidan used a similar ability as a mage. Fel rush, well, that isn't really a warlock skill, so... /shrug.

That was AU gul'dan directly channelling the powers of Sargeras. Which has zero to do with MU gul'dan who died decades previous and had nothing to do with anything.

You don't know that. Not every warlock uses Metamorphosis, because you need to spec into it, but every warlock above 62 had access to it pre-Demon Hunter. Both Gul'dans were known for using chaos bolts, so, that kind of tells me what spec Gul'dan preferred, kind of like how Jaina is a powerful FROST mage, but no doubt has access to the rest of the mage library, including versions of the spells that are clearly on steroids.

[quoted]Blizzard added meta the demo locks because at the time they had no intentions of adding DH's to the game (and indeed wouldn't for near a decade) and figured it would be a cool ability. You're ascribing a lore reason for a dev decision that the writers had to write around. [/quote]

So what? The fact that Kanrethad Ebonlocke perfected the Nathrezir variant of Metamorphosis, and at the time made it permanent, before we took him down, tells me, like it or not, metamorphosis is intrinsically tied to the warlock. Had you been able to demonstrate that Illidan knew how to meta before encountering the skull, you'd have a point, but since you can't, face it... you're wrong here. You're wrong where it really counts. Without warlock knowledge, there would be no demon hunters as they are in game now. So, no I'm not ascribing lore based off "a lore reason for a dev decision that the writers had to write around.", I am merely reciting a lore reason that exists, whether that was the developer's intentions or it wasn't. Fact is, it was made canon, and then removed for arbitrary reasons, despite the fact that there is still a prime example of both a meta lock, and a dark apotheosis lock in the game RIGHT NOW.

You want meta for locks? Cool sure add a CD that turns you into a demon and empowers your pets for the duration or whatever. Don't pretend meta isn't a DH ability because you need a lore reason to have the shiny toy.

I've demonstrated to the contrary enough. Bottom line, Illidan could not use meta pre-Skull of Gul'dan. It was the knowledge of the warlock that he used, nothing more. Nothing less. Until it is demonstrated that the ability to use metamorphosis existed before he did that, your argument is invalidated.

[rhorle]

I've demonstrated to the contrary enough. Bottom line, Illidan could not use meta pre-Skull of Gul'dan. It was the knowledge of the warlock that he used, nothing more. Nothing less. Until it is demonstrated that the ability to use metamorphosis existed before he did that, your argument is invalidated.

But that doesn't really prove anything. Playable classes do not exist in lore in the same sense that they do in terms of game mechanics. Magic isn't bound by a universal law that says Jania can't use fel because she is a mage. Or that using that fel spell makes it a warlock playable class thing she stole.

[Saltysquidoon]

So what? The fact that Kanrethad Ebonlocke perfected the Nathrezir variant of Metamorphosis, and at the time made it permanent, before we took him down, tells me, like it or not, metamorphosis is intrinsically tied to the warlock. Had you been able to demonstrate that Illidan knew how to meta before encountering the skull, you'd have a point, but since you can't, face it... you're wrong here. You're wrong where it really counts. Without warlock knowledge, there would be no demon hunters as they are in game now.

Everything you said is (I suspect knowingly) false, Ebonlock was the first warlock to learned how to metamorphize and he did so from studying Illidan and outland long after Illidan did so during the reign of chaos.
Further, there is no need to show Illidan knew about meta before consuming the skull's power, we've seen DH's using meta 5-6 years (in-universe) before any warlock even tried to use the spell that's canon. All you have is fanfiction that MU Gul'dan somehow learned about meta offscreen and never used it or told anything about it until illidan consumed the skull 20 years later despite numerous other people (including warlocks) possessing the skull during that period.

I've demonstrated to the contrary enough. Bottom line, Illidan could not use meta pre-Skull of Gul'dan. It was the knowledge of the warlock that he used, nothing more. Nothing less. Until it is demonstrated that the ability to use metamorphosis existed before he did that, your argument is invalidated.

There is not a shred of evidence stated or even implied anywhere that the skull contained knowledge of any kind. It has however been showing multiple times (going back to WCII) to be a powerful totem for channelling and absorbing fel energies, illidan used it as a battery not an encyclopedia.

[Amariw]

meta never made sense for locks,i get it was fun,just play demon hunter

MoP demo with meta and legion-bfa demon hunters couldnt be anymore different, beside using one similar spell name. MOP meta was a complex build and sustain gameplay that empowered your spells when you choose (freely, at any point) to enter demon form, but it didnt made spells better in every way, it made them powerful in specific ways that you had to take advantage of, while weaving in your normal form rotation. I mained aff and destro during mop for progression and they were also very good but damn if i'm not sad blizz fucked demo just for a two button double jump class. It was complex, involved decision making, and i doubt we'll have anything close to it again.

Edit: the really sad part is that they could have kept it. Change meta form to some empowering demon that empowers your spells and is maintained by demonic fury and/or a different type of demon form (say eredar), and the gameplay, which was different to the core from DH, could have stayed. I think they didn't kept it because it was such a full package, complex class gameplay that it wouldn't fit with legion and onward's rental power systems that make your class empty without them.

[Shiekyerbooty]

My friend played wow, and I saw a fel guard in Stormwind, I asked him... what class was that ?

He said, that's not a player, that's a warlock's minion. That was at the end of WoTLK, I played Demo for the next few of years.

Playing Demo in Firelands and Dragon Soul was some of the most fun I've ever had in wow...and I didn't always top the meters, and didn't care... it was freaking just fun to play.

I wasn't a huge fan of demonic fury and the resources tied to Meta added in MoP… and it seemed in WoD they just couldn't balance the fun stuff... I think I changed specs every other week in WoD

But still, Demonic fury, although I didn't too much care for it, was a thousand times better than the garbage spec Demonology has become today