Who lost its soul? Veteran Players or the Game?

[Saltysquidoon]

But also the top end players sold their soul in the name of a .01% DPS increase. They were the ones that started a lot of trends that ended up birthing the toxic community the game has now. Cookie cutter builds, FotM classes, class stacking in general, faction/race changing for optimal racial, using the PTR as basically extra clear attempts. We're already starting to see them rally to kill the last bit of RPG flavor in Shadowlands in the name of their meters.

I mean most of those things have existed since vanilla in one form or another, if the game has been losing its soul in one form or another since before the first expansion did it ever really have one?

[Tuor]

Main problem are the expansions.

Get the best loot --) your gear is now trash in new expansion --) get the best loot again ---) Oh wait its trash again ---) repeat this process ---) get tired of the same thing over and over and over and over and over ...............................and over and over again.

Then there are your main class nerfs and so on.
However invention of a LFG killed the game for me. Since it killed the community.
They tried to fix that in cata (kinda), but whiny new players didnt like it because dungeons were to hard (singe lfg was a 98% chance of failure).

When we had an expantion were only 2% of the playerbase killed last boss on hard mode, and those people started to wine the game was to easy... That was the point it became official that Blizzard didn't had a clue of what it was doing.

[Kralljin]

Cookie cutter builds, FotM classes, class stacking in general, faction/race changing for optimal racial

This entirely predates WoW, was already a thing in Everquest and any combat based RPG.

The difference is that people have far more access to information, people aren't playing in their own closed off world and indepth guides are pretty easy to find.
It's easier to tell who sucks nowadays, that's really nothing unique to WoW.

We're already starting to see them rally to kill the last bit of RPG flavor in Shadowlands in the name of their meters.

The devs can ramble about the "saving the beating heart of the RPG", but at the end of the day, it's the people sitting at Blizzard HQ that stabbed a lot of daggers into that heart.

Who asked them to kill off professions?
Who asked them to prune the shit out of classes?
Who asked them to remove unique Classes synergies (such as Windfury Totem + Warrior)?
Who asked them to remove any defensive stats (Dodge, Parry, defense) or Mana regen stats (Spirit, Mp5)?
Who asked them to turn almost any items into a bland copy of each that has: Stamina, Primary Stats and two secondary stats?

Sorry, it's a damn cheap excuse for the developers to now turn around and say "look guys, we want to save the RPG!" while they have removed a ton of those RPG aspects for over a decade by now.

Interesting point, I kinda feel like this behaviour pushes Blizzard to tune the top end content harder, which just encourages more of what you described. Would making mythic raids less hard be a good solution?

Games have a tendency to get optimized to the brink, as same people find that engaging.
Look towards Super Mario, with speedruns of the full game being at <4 Minutes.

Even if you want to call that a poor example, look towards Classic where people stack 18+ Warriors to smack through BWL in less than 25 mintues, despite the content absolutely not needed that sort of optimization.

[Big Thanks]

I think it is both. We have been playing this game for far too long, there is no more mystery left. Also I feel before developers were passionate about the game, they wanted create a game which they wanted to play. We hear stories of developers creating content on their own time. After all these years I think now to a lot of them its just a job. People who were the driving force behind the game Mike Morhime, Chris Metzen already quit the game.

Yeah, im going with this exact opinion.
No hate though...dont want to offend anyone.

[deenman]

I'm having a blast on Classic. Got my Thunderfury 2 weeks ago. My friends and I brought together a huge amount of people we've met over the years to form a guild. I can definitely say that not everybody enjoyed the experience as much, I think we dropped like 60% of our 150 people to the early leveling grind.

Now we have a pretty solid roster though. We clear MC in 50 minutes and BWL in 1 hour. Not world top times by any stretch but good for a mixed casual / hardcore guild. The forced community aspect really brings out the best in me, it's a sense of all being on the same boat and having to stick it out together.

And I am super glad your having fun,I never said you cant have fun,i said the same feeling literaly cant be the same,unless you hit your head and get amnesia

also,forced comunity?you say that as if thats somehow different today

[Sagenod]

I began playing at the start of BC and the last time I seriously played was in Legion, and although there have been those "moments of glory" in my WoW career, I'll never get the same feeling from when I was a kid finally finishing Ghostlands on my first BC toon, a Blood Elf rogue, or finally getting the Whirlwind Axe on my warrior. It's like getting really high on a drug for the first time, it's great but you'll never experience it again. There's a reason WoW has often been memed on and called "World of Warcrack" in the past. The game has historically played to the reward system of your brain in such a way that every time you reach a new milestone, you want to keep striving for the next one.

Where I think they went wrong was in going too deep into the philosophy of accessibility. Not even in regards to playing solo or with others, but with how easily you complete everything in the game. Sure, I didn't like the leveling slog of vanilla/classic, but they went in the complete opposite direction by making levelling content way too easy even without heirlooms.

I still hope they find a better balance in the future, but I don't think WoW will ever be able to recreate the same feelings for people as when they first started because, as others have said already, both the players and the game changed. And not just the game, but the developers. I couldn't imagine the stress of being a World of Warcraft developer, you have such a weight on your shoulders to make the game you and millions of other people cherish, the entire time you have to deal with money-hungry suits setting unrealistic deadlines, the ire of a community that is absolutely the most spoiled rotten of any gaming community out there, and on top of that you're often overworked and underpaid. I salute all the developers of this game and I don't envy them.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Neither.

10char

[deenman]

This entirely predates WoW, was already a thing in Everquest and any combat based RPG.

The difference is that people have far more access to information, people aren't playing in their own closed off world and indepth guides are pretty easy to find.
It's easier to tell who sucks nowadays, that's really nothing unique to WoW.

The devs can ramble about the "saving the beating heart of the RPG", but at the end of the day, it's the people sitting at Blizzard HQ that stabbed a lot of daggers into that heart.

Who asked for them to kill off professions?
Who asked them to prune the shit out of classes?
Who asked for them to remove unique Classes synergies (such as Windfury Totem + Warrior)?
Who asked them to remove any defensive stats (Dodge, Parry, defense) or Mana regen stats (Spirit, Mp5)?
Who asked them to turn almost any items into a bland copy of each that has: Stamina, Primary Stats and two secondary stats?

Sorry, it's a damn cheap excuse for the developers to now turn around and say "look guys, we want to save the RPG!" while they have removed a ton of those RPG aspects for over a decade by now.

how have professions been killed?they are as alive and needed as ever,crafted gear is as strong as ever,its bis even for many

the pruning was actualy an issue a lot of people were raising at the time,it did start to get silly in mop with a little to many pointless stuff,granted they whent to far in some cases

there are still plenty of unique synergies,windfury is a buff...dh and monk have debuffs for the raid,how is it so different?some winds dont pop up around you?

defensive stats were just an arbitrary pre requisit you needed,it didnt add anything just a number you had to reach and forget about,i do agree about mana regen,atleast that was something you could build around and change

itemization and balance,classic feels kinda silly when a lvl 40 item is bis until literaly wotlk

[Kralljin]

how have professions been killed?they are as alive and needed as ever,crafted gear is as strong as ever,its bis even for many

Compare the craftable items of Vanilla or TBC with the current ones.
They're not even close.

Those items actually require a multitude of materials, which varies from item to item, which makes them stand out.

the pruning was actualy an issue a lot of people were raising at the time,it did start to get silly in mop with a little to many pointless stuff,granted they whent to far in some cases

Oh yeah, spamming Whirlwind as filler in virtually any situation, that's what i wanted!

there are still plenty of unique synergies,windfury is a buff...dh and monk have debuffs for the raid,how is it so different?some winds dont pop up around you?

The fact that you even make this comparison tells me that you have no idea why Warriors synergize so well with Windfury.

defensive stats were just an arbitrary pre requisit you needed,it didnt add anything just a number you had to reach and forget about,i do agree about mana regen,atleast that was something you could build around and change

Neither parry nor dodge were a prerequisite for anything, those stats were simply preferred by Tanks because they did what a Tanks wanted - making them take less damage, while also creating a clear line between tank itemization and dps itemization.

itemization and balance,classic feels kinda silly when a lvl 40 item is bis until literaly wotlk

As broken as it is, at very least it's not as creatively bankrupt as the vast majority of loot in Retail.
Like, i couldn't even name 5 items that my character wears on retail, because they're all just the same.

[ablib]

16 years of WoW, and people still don't understand that playing the same game can get old, and that it is normal for that to happen.

It's like gamers are dumber than shit now that they don't realize this. 30 years ago, we just put the game up and never went back to it. Kids these days....

[Nerovar]

Sorry, it's a damn cheap excuse for the developers to now turn around and say "look guys, we want to save the RPG!" while they have removed a ton of those RPG aspects for over a decade by now.

It's either a cheap excuse or they really don't know what they're doing. I can't say which one of these options is worse.

[Gaidax]

Lost soul?

Yeh buddeh, I know it's hard to grasp, but times change. It's 2020 - what people want and like nowadays is a whole lot different from what people liked in 2005 and in 1995.

That's why you barely have any RTS games nowadays, where in 90s they were all the rage. And that's why MMOs are out of fashion for many years.


It's like those retards who say "people not listening to vinyl records and jazz much anymore - totally lost their soul", it's simply different times and different likes. I can bet your ass that in 15 years from now you will have Fortnite gamers of today clamoring about how gamers lost their soul because they don't play Fortnite much anymore and instead do *insert new hype genre of the year*.

[Kralljin]

Just remember, if Blizzard decides *they have to cut something*...it'll be your high-end content that less people use. Not the casuals' content.

Due to WoW's design, everybody is essentially playing the "same game" at a varying difficulty.
Blizzard said that Mythic only takes like ~10% of their encounter design resources.

So that's left after that?
Highrated Arena? Works the same as lowrated Arena.
Highend M+? It's a scaling system, the only thing that changes past 10 are the numbers, no more work on Blizzards part.

Now take into account that something such as the Race to world first is free advertisement for the game, so it's not has a bit more relevance there.

There is no "hardcore" nor "casual" content in WoW, everything is designed in a way that everyone will engage in those systems, albeit at varying levels of difficulty.

[deenman]

Compare the craftable items of Vanilla or TBC with the current ones.
They're not even close.

Those items actually require a multitude of materials, which varies from item to item, which makes them stand out.

Oh yeah, spamming Whirlwind as filler in virtually any situation, that's what i wanted!

The fact that you even make this comparison tells me that you have no idea why Warriors synergize so well with Windfury.

Neither parry nor dodge were a prerequisite for anything, those stats were simply preferred by Tanks because they did what a Tanks wanted - making them take less damage, while also creating a clear line between tank itemization and dps itemization.

As broken as it is, at very least it's not as creatively bankrupt as the vast majority of loot in Retail.
Like, i couldn't even name 5 items that my character wears on retail, because they're all just the same.

huh?what do the multitude of materials matter?you said professions being useless,dont try to completly change it,profession gear today is much more needed,all crafting proff and ghatering prof are very much needed and alive

spaming wirlwind?cmon dude,warrior today has to do way more than it had to in vanila/tbc/wotlk,also fury today feels rly good to play

i know why warriors synergize,but at the end of the day its damage,and if you liked random 1 shots in pvp,that wasnt good design

defensive stats were 100% a prerequisite,no1 invited critable tanks for raids,if those stats did more than just being arbitrarily needed id say they would be fine

i dont rly disagree with items feeling uninteresting,but at the end of the day...items are and have always been stat sticks,regardless of how wonky those stats were before,atleast trinkets are cooler today,and set bonuses,and sometimes they make items with cool effects,today you also got transmog and rly cool looking items atleast

[Big Thanks]

Lost soul?

Yeh buddeh, I know it's hard to grasp, but times change. It's 2020 - what people want and like nowadays is a whole lot different from what people liked in 2005 and in 1995.

That's why you barely have any RTS games nowadays, where in 90s they were all the rage. And that's why MMOs are out of fashion for many years.


It's like those retards who say "people not listening to vinyl records and jazz much anymore - totally lost their soul", it's simply different times and different likes. I can bet your ass that in 15 years from now you will have Fortnite gamers of today clamoring about how gamers lost their soul because they don't play Fortnite much anymore and instead do *insert new hype genre of the year*.

Ofcourse no one lost his soul i was being "fancy" on the title.

I explained better in the OP somewhat the situation.

I also put on the title "Veteran Players" because i didnt want to offend anyone...but in reality i meant "BITTER Veteran Players"
You know who im talking about...heck maybe im one.
Damn...i think im one bitter veteran player now...

[Zogarth]

Lost soul?

Yeh buddeh, I know it's hard to grasp, but times change. It's 2020 - what people want and like nowadays is a whole lot different from what people liked in 2005 and in 1995.

That's why you barely have any RTS games nowadays, where in 90s they were all the rage. And that's why MMOs are out of fashion for many years.


It's like those retards who say "people not listening to vinyl records and jazz much anymore - totally lost their soul", it's simply different times and different likes. I can bet your ass that in 15 years from now you will have Fortnite gamers of today clamoring about how gamers lost their soul because they don't play Fortnite much anymore and instead do *insert new hype genre of the year*.

While I agree that a lot of things have changed, and the majority for the better in game development as a whole, I have to disagree about why things like RTS is not really that big anymore. RTS and 4x games are still a big thing (Crusader Kings 3 upcoming, new Civ games still coming etc.). The thing, big developers have gotten bigger. EA's "big" development team is not 60 people anymore, it is 300 people. A game selling "great" is not 2 million copies but 10 million. To do that you need to release on as many platforms at possible, and to reach for a wider audience. Anything niche is automatically out.

Think about how "single player games are dead" that was echoed for so long by EA and Activision, and in some ways they are right. If the goal is to earn a lot of money, and not to make a good game. Everyone wants the new Fortnite, the new CoD etc.

A lot of trends in game development are objective bad in my opinion. Loot boxes, ridiculous amounts of DLC, cut-up games to sell day-1 DLC etc.

You can't tell me that "It is 2020, not 2005, people want DLC and Loot Boxes these days buddy!". No one wants it except for greedy executives and shareholders drowning in their own pits of avarice.

[Kralljin]

huh?what do the multitude of materials matter?you said professions being useless,dont try to completly change it,profession gear today is much more needed,all crafting proff and ghatering prof are very much needed and alive

If you seriously want to tell me that crafted gear is more relevant today than in Vanilla / TBC, i am going to end this discussion right here.
Especially if you take into account how much time it took for a player to get those crafted items.

spaming wirlwind?cmon dude,warrior today has to do way more than it had to in vanila/tbc/wotlk,also fury today feels rly good to play

That's how Warrior worked in WoD.

i know why warriors synergize,but at the end of the day its damage,and if you liked random 1 shots in pvp,that wasnt good design

Because it was just good in PvP and nowhere else, right?

defensive stats were 100% a prerequisite,no1 invited uncritable tanks for raids,if those stats did more than just being arbitrarily needed id say they would be fine

Again, this is just the defense stat, not Dodge, Parry or Block.

but at the end of the day...items are and have always been stat sticks

Doesn't mean that every item has to a copy of another one.

[Tuor]

defensive stats were 100% a prerequisite,no1 invited critable tanks for raids,if those stats did more than just being arbitrarily needed id say they would be fine

They also allowed people to understand their class, and understand the game.

Some other stats gave you progression, like ArPe, i still remember the day i finally got the 1400 rating of ArPe, i spent almost an hour replacing my arPe gems for strenght ones.

Look at wow today, its just drop gear and you donne, there is no class learning, there is no progression feeling, its just Zerg mode. You hit max level you get the top gear, and you ready for a raid even if you don't even understand your class.

[Doffen]

It's like those retards who say "people not listening to vinyl records and jazz much anymore - totally lost their soul"

People who doesn't listen to vinyl can fuck right off!

[MoanaLisa]

It's difficult to stay as enthusiastic about a game after 10-15 years than when you first start up with it. Very few can do that. It has nothing to do with soul or any crap like that. It's just human nature that things get old after a bit. Frankly, for most casual players, the game hasn't changed all that much since vanilla with one exception which I'll get to. I know people will react in horror to that but WoW is instantly recognizable, the world looks better but pretty much the same, there are more races and classes but all of the old ones are still there.

The one exception: classes and specs. If you learned the game one way and then come back to it some distant time later and everything is way different, a lot of people are going to poke at it and then say no, no thanks. So that's a hard thing. Leave classes/specs static and it would be insufferable after a few years. Change them all the time and a lot of people won't much enjoy their experience when they return.

Cost is another thing. So is getting older and just moving on to things like family, work and other stuff. These things are really important to most adults, much more important than setting aside a few nights a week to raid.

So I'm firmly on the side that we've all changed a lot more than the game. You can either deal with that or not. Games, as such, don't have soul. This game, specifically, has become somewhat tedious with all of the math and theory-crafting that goes on behind it. The game is way over-engineered and while easy to learn our asshole community demands that you understand more crap than any casual player is interested in knowing or understanding. So fuck them. Another run through Skyrim is more fun than putting up with that crap.

And boom, another player gone forever.

People generally play video games to relax. Blizzard has slowly shifted away from a relaxing experience to something quite different. Part of this is their preference, part of it is responding to players like themselves. This quite easily explains why people come back at the start of an expansion, level a character, see the sights and log out after a month or two not to return until the next expansion.

EDIT: A few last words about sense of wonder: Come to Arizona and see the Grand Canyon for the first time you're likely to be overwhelmed with "sense of wonder" about what you're looking at. Come see the Grand Canyon every day for 10 years, make a fucking job out it, and your sense of wonder index is going to be about zero. This is human nature. It's natural. It's stupid to imagine that after years and years of living in any world you're going to feel the same way about it as you did when you first saw it.

The only thing that is going to be attractive to most players about World of Warcraft after this many years is story. Blizzard is mostly failing on this front. Storylines are generally bombastic, obvious and rather stupid. The best moments in almost any of the last couple of expansions has been with 2nd-level story lines and characters. A lot of smaller stories is going to have a better chance of being engaging than what they're doing now. Story is very subjective and Blizzard has always assigned it to second or third place. That's a mistake in my view. Story is really now what the game needs to be about. Finding different ways of swinging a sword or casting a spell and the math behind it just isn't what a lot of people are interested in.