Do humans have a just reason to hate blood elves for joining the horde?

[Beloren]

What do you think? and do they really hate them or are more interested in winning them back?

DO you think they view it more a case of a friend, upping and leaving after your darkest hour to join your former enemies? or were the conditions the blood elves joined the horde in acceptable, seeing that the factions weren't really at war at all, and pre Wc3 grievances had gone after everyone worked together, and continued to do so as Daelin's attack on Durotar showed the alliance supporting the horde emphatically.


Would you say the humans and blood elves hate each other currently? Or there is still a measure of affection?

Do the blood elves actually hate the humans becuase of the scourge? Is this lore true? Or fans just interpreting it this way? Is it in character for a blood elf, to hate humanity as a race for the scourge rather than just the individual who caused it?

The lore doesn't outright say this is why the blood elves joined the horde, but it does give a sequence of events and a directive to join the horde from the leader at the time.

Once Kael'thas was exposedt o have been compromised and evil, should the blood elves, new friends witht he draenei have actually returned tot he alliance? Become neutral and left it up to the citizens?

Does the actual horde show enough support for the blood elves to warrant staying in it or should the friendship actuall yonly be with the forsaken?

Do the blood elves have sufficient casue to hate the alliance seeing Draenei and human friendships exist or do you think it's more a case of we ened up having allies who hate each other, and I'm going to have to support the ones who helped me.

ARe fans injecting unloreful hate into faction race relationships?

[Villager720]

I think most “normal” human characters/citizens of SW, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, etc wouldn’t have the full context that players do.
And with that in mind, from their limited perspective : blood elves fought with “us” against the Horde, now they kill “us” alongside the Horde.
I think it is pretty easy to see why that would come across poorly to an average Joe.

[Avriak91]

Can't really comment on the human perspective, but for the Blood Elves I think attempted genocide of your entire race is a pretty justified reason to hate the alliance

[Varodoc]

BEs never reprimanded humans for Arthas and Garithos (who has never even been mentioned in WoW). That's an argument BEs fans come up with on the forums to delude themselves that the Alliance is more evil than it actually is.

Humans dont give a shit if BEs joined the Horde because they know they won't stay loyal to the Warchief whenever there's a faction war going on.

[Saltysquidoon]

First of all, we have to accept that Belves joining the horde was a business decision that had nothing to do with the lore and (to a lesser extent) Kael going full 'no u are the demons' was a typical blizzard overreacction to complaints about vanilla having nothing to do with WCIII.

Why would the blood elves give one single shit about the draenei? It's now canon PC elves are gud bios (because every single metzan shaped edge the horde has ever had hs to be sanded down to a family-friendly nub) and it was only Kael's 'evil' elves that ever really fought them and Velen purified the sunwell and saved them all.

Also, do the belves even hate the alliance? I mean they were willing to run right back into it no questions asked in MoP which only didn't happen (in-universe) because of Jaina's spaghetti drop.
The only alliance faction the belves are ever shown being antagonistic towards is the high elves because they're the annoying moralistic vegan at dinner parties, even then they've been let into Silvermoon on occasion.

[ravenmoon]

I think most “normal” human characters/citizens of SW, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, etc wouldn’t have the full context that players do.
And with that in mind, from their limited perspective : blood elves fought with “us” against the Horde, now they kill “us” alongside the Horde.
I think it is pretty easy to see why that would come across poorly to an average Joe.

Most players behave as if they are in game characters and don't have access to the other side's point of view.. i use to think they were posting in character, but have to believe that most are not, they have simply taken fully on board what one side is written to feel and all objectivity has since ceased.

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Can't really comment on the human perspective, but for the Blood Elves I think attempted genocide of your entire race is a pretty justified reason to hate the alliance

Was it not the very undead they are allied with that attempted the genocide? WHy don't they hate the forsaken? WAs it humanit y that attempted genocide or Arthas, (a human) who wiped out most of humanit too, and was been led by an Orc (Ner'zhul) -

by the same logic, they still have more reason to hate orcs and undead than they do humans, gnomes and dwarves.

[Babadoo]

BE make fun of alliance calling them smelly and not fashinable while haging out with fuckin orcs.

[Daedius]

BE make fun of alliance calling them smelly and not fashinable while haging out with fuckin orcs.

To inflate one's ego of course. It's like an adult surrounded by toddlers saying they're the smartest...

[SoundOfGuns]

First of all, we have to accept that Belves joining the horde was a business decision that had nothing to do with the lore and (to a lesser extent) Kael going full 'no u are the demons' was a typical blizzard overreacction to complaints about vanilla having nothing to do with WCIII.

Yea, let me stop you right there? Because thats the kind of kool-aid the people in that high-elf-thread drink and its not really accurate? If my only hope for survival of my almost extinct species was treating me like gunfodder i would rather piss off and do my own thing as well, instead of seeking an alliance with them. It doesn't matter that it was just Garitos. For all Kael knew, every Human would treat them that way and it was also kind of a Human that did cause all this, which is how Arthas was perceived even though he was undead at the time. It does make perfect sense why the Bloodelfs did try to sort it out themselves. Sylvanas was still Sylvanas Windrunner to them to some degree and while there certainly was tons of distrust... at the time that was still a more reasonable choice than Stormwind when she came to their aid unlike everyone else, even years after Arthas houseparty while all that the Alliance did was sending spies and assassins, which you can still see today just by playing the starter-zone which does play before Silvermoon joins the Horde.

However (and back to topic) with that whole context missing (as evidently many Allianceplayers do) its clear why it looks like an unreasonable act of betrayal to the average alliance citizen. Especially with (actual) traitors like the Highelves going around, being unreasonably racist and hostile towards Silvermoon because Alleria and Vareesa just can't take their hands of that sweet human bod. However, the fact that Lorthemar did get in contact with the Alliance for negotiations will probably have made that worse? His reasons for doing that was Garrosh being a monster but to that average citizen - if they heard about it - it probably just... added to the perspective of the Bloodelfs being opportunistic turncloaks...

[Beloren]

To inflate one's ego of course. It's like an adult surrounded by toddlers saying they're the smartest...

Doesn't stop it from being true

[Ardenaso]

BEs never reprimanded humans for Arthas and Garithos (who has never even been mentioned in WoW). That's an argument BEs fans come up with on the forums to delude themselves that the Alliance is more evil than it actually is.

Yeah this is a huge misconception, Garithos is only 5-10% reason why the Blood Elves rejoined the Horde, the other 90-95% is because of an shoehorned asspull questline that forced Blood Elves to the Horde like it really didn't make any sense why they did it in the first place. Let's not forget the Blood Elves were still willing to work with the Alliance even after Garithos died.

There's 3 ways to justify it:

1. It was Fandral who sent them given his Kaldorei supremacist views
2. It was a response investigation of why they harassed the Draenei (but they aren't omnipotent to know they aren't actually aligned)
3. Prospector and the Elves went on their own and sabotaged just for shits and giggles

Btw: on that brainwashing scene, some Blood Elves do blame the Alliance for Arthas

Lyria Skystrider says: My brothers and sisters. Listen to me. We must speak of the survival of our people. We have narrowly survived one calamnity, but I fear the next shall destroy us.
Lyria Skystrider says: Can you not see what is happening? Open your eyes. It is laid bare for all to see. What is this new alliance? Why have we betrayed our allies of old, only to take up with the enemies of all that live?
Vaeron Kormar says: No, you're wrong! We were the ones betrayed!
Terric Brightwind says: When have the dwarves ever been our friends?
Melaya Tassier says: The humans abandoned us in our darkest hour! Their prince himself led the assault on our lands.
Priest Ennas says: You fool! The prince's minions were the very Forsaken we have now allied ourselves with, and now he has betrayed us.

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What do you think? and do they really hate them or are more interested in winning them back?

The humans were already angry with the High Elves when they left the Alliance of Lordaeron; when the High Elf exiles rejoined the Alliance, they were met with cold reception. The Quel'thalas proper joining the Horde is just a cherry on top

(even though the High Elves were part of the 1st Legion and they were active members in the Kalimdor Brigades)

[Varodoc]

Yeah this is a huge misconception, Garithos is only 5-10% reason why the Blood Elves rejoined the Horde, the other 90-95% is because of an shoehorned asspull questline that forced Blood Elves to the Horde like it really didn't make any sense why they did it in the first place. Let's not forget the Blood Elves were still willing to work with the Alliance even after Garithos died.

There's 3 ways to justify it:

1. It was Fandral who sent them given his Kaldorei supremacist views
2. It was a response investigation of why they harassed the Draenei (but they aren't omnipotent to know they aren't actually aligned)
3. Prospector and the Elves went on their own and sabotaged just for shits and giggles

Btw: on that brainwashing scene, some Blood Elves do blame the Alliance for Arthas



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The humans were already angry with the High Elves when they left the Alliance of Lordaeron; when the High Elf exiles rejoined the Alliance, they were met with cold reception. The Quel'thalas proper joining the Horde is just a cherry on top

(even though the High Elves were part of the 1st Legion and they were active members in the Kalimdor Brigades)

Priest Ennas debunked Melaya so hard that the government had to brainwash him to hide the truth.

[Ardenaso]

I really do hope in Classic TBC, they "Reforge" it and add some missing bits like why the Blood Elves would actually join the Horde. Here's what I think would be good proposals:

1. Bolvar/Varian is still embittered with them and explicitly shows that he doesn't care for them since he thinks "they deserve what came to them"
2. Fandral manipulates Jaina, Tyrande, and Bolvar/Varian that Blood Elves couldn't be trusted
3. The High Elf exiles, out of bitterness, cockblocks the Blood Elves from the Alliance

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Edit:

4. Some Lordaeron survivors create propaganda of Blood Elves consorting with the Naga

[Surfd]

Was it not the very undead they are allied with that attempted the genocide? WHy don't they hate the forsaken? WAs it humanit y that attempted genocide or Arthas, (a human) who wiped out most of humanit too, and was been led by an Orc (Ner'zhul) -

by the same logic, they still have more reason to hate orcs and undead than they do humans, gnomes and dwarves.

Except that this is not what happened at all. Sure, we, the players, with all of our outside knowledge know the ultimate origins of all of this, but what you describe is NOT what the High Elves saw happen:

They didn't see an army of forsaken (who didn't even exist at the time) decimate a path through their City. They watched a HUMAN cult of necromancers lead by the HUMAN Prince himself wreck their shit in order to resurrect a HUMAN sorcerer as a Lich. The Scourge didn't techincally exist at that point in time, as the main enemy was still "The Cult of the Damned", and nobody had even the vaguest idea that Ner'Zhul was manipulating shit, so the orcs (who Ner'zhul wouldn't even count as a faction member of) don't even enter into the equation. The argument that the Quel'dori should hate the forsaken simply because they are undead only works if you assume every elf is a brainless bigot. The idea that they should hate the Orcs, for something the Orcs had literally NOTHING to do with is even dumber.

As far as the Quel'dori were concerned, Humans, lead by the Human Prince, butchered their way through the city, and then Humans abandoned them to the ravages of the undead after Humans fucked up the entire northern continent leaving it at he mercy of an undead horde. Then to add insult to injury, the only surviving "Alliance" authority in Lordaeron ended up being a racist bigot who attempted to throw the Quel'dori Army into the meatgrinder as cannonfodder, and then tried to EXECUTE them all for not having the decency to die like they were asked.........

I think that alone would be enough reason for almost any Quel'dori alive to have severe reservations about throwing in with Humans ever again.

By time we get around to the Blood Elves joining the Horde, there has been plenty of time to establish that the Forsaken are NOT the same undead as the ones threatening Silvermoon (either currently or in the past) AND there is evidence that their former alliance "allies" have now teamed up with the Night Eves, who the Quel'dori have very little reason to trust given their past history. Doesn't help that Night Elf agents are actively attempting to fuck with the security of Silvermoon either.

Which makes their choice in joining the horde pretty obvious if you ask me.

[Ardenaso]

Also, do the belves even hate the alliance? I mean they were willing to run right back into it no questions asked in MoP which only didn't happen (in-universe) because of Jaina's spaghetti drop.
The only alliance faction the belves are ever shown being antagonistic towards is the high elves because they're the annoying moralistic vegan at dinner parties, even then they've been let into Silvermoon on occasion.

Yeah, it's really funny that the only thing preventing the Blood Elves from rejoining the Alliance or being friends with the humans, are the High Elves themselves

[Surfd]

Yeah, it's really funny that the only thing preventing the Blood Elves from rejoining the Alliance or being friends with the humans, are the High Elves themselves

It's even more ironic, since the "High Elves" are basically just the small handful of Quel'dori who happened to be out of Silvermoon when all the bad shit went down, who have basically spent the last several years being insufferable assholes who somehow are unable to understand why the "Blood Elves" are fucking bitter about the fact that they suffered and died while the High Elves got a free ride leeching magic energy off their human buddies and never had to deal with the Grief and Trauma that resulted from the distruction of the Sunwell or the sacking of Silvermoon.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah, it's really funny that the only thing preventing the Blood Elves from rejoining the Alliance or being friends with the humans, are the High Elves themselves

The high elves aren't really a concern, they have little to no political influence in the Alliance, Varian was more than willing to ignore them and their grievances entirely, despite some of them really not liking their kin.

OT

Both humans and blood elves have legitimate reasons to feel betrayed by the other.

[Ardenaso]

The high elves aren't really a concern, they have little to no political influence in the Alliance, Varian was more than willing to ignore them and their grievances entirely, despite some of them really not liking their kin.

perhaps not the Alliance, but Humans in general. The Silver Covenant were too insecure to see the Sunreavers and Argent Crusaders getting too friendly so they sent the Alliance to kill them, then Vereesa cockblocks the Aethas and the Blood Elves from rejoining the Kirin Tor, and now when (retconned) Jaina only teleported the Sunreavers to the prisons - Vereesa and her High Elves massacres the Sunreavers

[Combatbutler]

perhaps not the Alliance, but Humans in general. The Silver Covenant were too insecure to see the Sunreavers and Argent Crusaders getting too friendly so they sent the Alliance to kill them, then Vereesa cockblocks the Aethas and the Blood Elves from rejoining the Kirin Tor, and now when (retconned) Jaina only teleported the Sunreavers to the prisons - Vereesa and her High Elves massacres the Sunreavers

Yet in each of these instances they were soundly ignored, they rose to stop the admission of belves, they were ignored. They wanted immediate vengeance after Theramore they were ignored, they were entirely ignored when Varian tried to get the belves in the Alliance too, not once were they actually considered.

They have no political weight, they tend to throw a hissy fit, but ultimately pretty much no one listens to them. Though this helf discussion should stop now, such things belong into that mega trash thread.

[Super Kami Dende]

They were Allies and then joined the Enemies. What other reason is needed to hate them?