Tor'ghast Changes

[Cosmic Janitor]

From what I've seen I think these changes clearly do not address what they state they want to adress. If you want to challenge yourself on higher floors all you get is a middle finger, because by the end of a difficult floor (15-25 minutes of strategic gameplay) you have usually a 50-60% penality, even if you hurry up. Especially when abiltities can kill you with <=3 hits this means you get butchered considerably faster because of these.

I also think they are utterly unneccessary. Lengedary progression is hardcapped anyway, their statement is objectively false as given by the blue post, because waiting 10 minutes for bloodlust is not the ideal way to play the game. You are already in your fun zone beyond the reward structures, if someone wants to show of how good they can camp a floor for 12 hours, let them. It means nothing. This is just people wasting their time, in fact at this point Blizzard incentivises not taking breaks.

If anything Blizzard should make sure that the mob scaling does outpace the players at higher levels instead of currently giving people a harder time to start and then snowball out of control (at least I guess that is the ultimate goal of the final product). They adress an issue that by all accounts shouldn't exist in the first place. People might be willing to put up with waitng for a BL right now, because they know once they make it past this hurdle it gets easier. If it only gets harder this becomes even more of a non-issue.

[huth]

If anything Blizzard should make sure that the mob scaling does outpace the players at higher levels instead of currently giving people a harder time to start and then snowball out of control (at least I guess that is the ultimate goal of the final product). They adress an issue that by all accounts shouldn't exist in the first place. People might be willing to put up with waitng for a BL right now, because they know once they make it past this hurdle it gets easier. If it only gets harder this becomes even more of a non-issue.

That's definitely what should happen regardless. It's a roguelite dungeon, eventually you should run into enemies you simply can't beat. And then you stop and come back later when you're stronger. But that's a tuning issue, not a design one.

[infinitemeridian]

I'm wondering if we could keep the torments, but only have them increase / apply in combat. I'm not in alpha so can't be too sure. For the add spawning, do they spawn if you're not in combat?

I will say that I do like the idea of some sort of affix system the higher up you go, but I don't think soft-timers are the best way to do it.

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That's definitely what should happen regardless. It's a roguelite dungeon, eventually you should run into enemies you simply can't beat. And then you stop and come back later when you're stronger. But that's a tuning issue, not a design one.

It is a design issue as well. Some roguelikes are designed so you can "beat" them. If torghast is designed to have a hard floor-cap, then the tuning is less important, and rather how high that cap is is more important.

Though I do agree that there should be no limit and it should keep getting harder and harder - but there is a world in which you can theoretically "finish" Torghast.

[huth]

I'm wondering if we could keep the torments, but only have them increase / apply in combat. I'm not in alpha so can't be too sure. For the add spawning, do they spawn if you're not in combat?

I will say that I do like the idea of some sort of affix system the higher up you go, but I don't think soft-timers are the best way to do it.

The adds only spawn when you're not in combat. And, according to testers, do so the moment you drop it as well. Or when you just beat one. Or when you just ressed. Or, well, when you're doing anything other than being in combat.

[Cosmic Janitor]

That's definitely what should happen regardless. It's a roguelite dungeon, eventually you should run into enemies you simply can't beat. And then you stop and come back later when you're stronger. But that's a tuning issue, not a design one.

But it is relevant to these debuffs. If the base mob scaling would work properly then these debuffs would be even more useles than they currently are. Making design descisions and then passive-aggressively making declarations that only feedback with direct experience is worth it is an utterly pointless endeavor, since they don't even have the fundamantals finished right now. You just don't design addons to your system if the base system isn't even finished.

[infinitemeridian]

The adds only spawn when you're not in combat. And, according to testers, do so the moment you drop it as well. Or when you just beat one. Or when you just ressed. Or, well, when you're doing anything other than being in combat.

Well that's dumb. I think a lot of the initial concerns could be alleviated with only having these apply / increase in combat. I'm not sure if that makes the system good, but it would alleviate the concerns that you can't just sit down and take a break on a floor, which I think is the primary one.

[huth]

Though I do agree that there should be no limit and it should keep getting harder and harder - but there is a world in which you can theoretically "finish" Torghast.

Ultimately there's going to be a highest floor simply because computers are inherently limited. But it needn't be one you can reasonably reach. Also, reaching that doesn't have to be the end.

One option could be to make Torments selectable extra difficulties akin to masks you can access after playing through once. But i don't think their current implementation is suitable, rather, they should be flat modifiers for the entire run.

[infinitemeridian]

But it is relevant to these debuffs. If the base mob scaling would work properly then these debuffs would be even more useles than they currently are. Making design descisions and then passive-aggressively making declarations that only feedback with direct experience is worth it is an utterly pointless endeavor, since they don't even have the fundamantals finished right now. You just don't design addons to your system if the base system isn't even finished.

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier. Let's get Torghast in a state that looks like it can go live before we even decide if there are going to be player-emergent issues. Because it certainly can't go live in it's current state, Torments aside, largely due to tuning.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Well that's dumb. I think a lot of the initial concerns could be alleviated with only having these apply / increase in combat. I'm not sure if that makes the system good, but it would alleviate the concerns that you can't just sit down and take a break on a floor, which I think is the primary one.

Well the point of the system is to stop you from waiting for cooldowns and idling on a floor. For that to work you have to punish players for being out of combat.

[huth]

But it is relevant to these debuffs. If the base mob scaling would work properly then these debuffs would be even more useles than they currently are. Making design descisions and then passive-aggressively making declarations that only feedback with direct experience is worth it is an utterly pointless endeavor, since they don't even have the fundamantals finished right now. You just don't design addons to your system if the base system isn't even finished.

That was directed specificially at the player vs. enemy scaling, not the system as such. I.e. players scaling faster than mobs is a tuning issue.

[infinitemeridian]

Ultimately there's going to be a highest floor simply because computers are inherently limited. But it needn't be one you can reasonably reach. Also, reaching that doesn't have to be the end.

One option could be to make Torments selectable extra difficulties akin to masks you can access after playing through once. But i don't think their current implementation is suitable, rather, they should be flat modifiers for the entire run.

That's an interesting idea - make the Torments more like Faceless Masks. Then people know what they're getting into. I don't think people would like this, but it could be interesting to implement, especially if there's some sort of universal currency like Mementos in Torghast that can be used to buy cosmetic rewards (Which I think there should be).

Doesn't solve the overarching complaint about Torments, but could be an interesting system regardless.

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Well the point of the system is to stop you from waiting for cooldowns and idling on a floor. For that to work you have to punish players for being out of combat.

That's true - but it brings us back to the original point. Is this really an issue in the first place? I don't think anybody can confidently say that it will be. Also begs the question as to whether or not you think it's an issue in the first place - I would argue that, broadly speaking (and game design should be about the broader generalizations), it won't be.

I don't think Blizz is being honest with us or themselves here - their concern isn't really that people will wait for cooldowns. Rather, their concern is that people will spend too much time in Torghast.

[huth]

That's an interesting idea - make the Torments more like Faceless Masks. Then people know what they're getting into. I don't think people would like this, but it could be interesting to implement, especially if there's some sort of universal currency like Mementos in Torghast that can be used to buy cosmetic rewards (Which I think there should be).

Doesn't solve the overarching complaint about Torments, but could be an interesting system regardless.

I'll freely admit that i'm pretty much working off Dead Cells(where these simply unlock higher difficulties) for this idea, in addition to the masks(which apply specific modifiers unique to the mask).

At the very least this would be a system where you willingly opt into this whole thing, so you only have yourself to blame if you don't like the play. I don't think they should result in anything more than vanity rewards outside Torghast, either. Legendaries should only require basic play.

[Harbour]

Dont Blizzard notice fundamental general problem with their desire to go for cybersport-disciplines with WoW?
They design core mechanics around it. First M+, now Torghast. It results into an introduction of the criterias like a timer, that ultimately punishes the major part of players.
And for what? 20k viewers on the YT? Not worth it. They cant manage cybersport department properly anyway to compete with LoL or CSGO or Dota2.

[rrayy]

If it is a "theoretical" limit which is really hard to reach, why are you insisting on its presence to the point you attack rabidly to those who do not like it?

Only a tiny fraction, if not none, of player base will wait for BL before each pull. There is no point to put this mechanic to the game.

Then there is no point in your complaining. Youa re literally whining about something that does not affect you in any way.

[Zyrinx]

It stacks faster on higher levels, so you might very well end up with lethal values quite quickly. It's also not adressing the actual issue: These timers will affect behaviour and condition people to attempt to move as quickly as possible regardless of whether they actually need to. A hard timer would actually be better here. If you know you can get through in 30min, a 1h timer isn't going to make you hurry. But torments are much harder to gauge.

There's also still the question if the issue this is trying to solve is actually important enough to worry about. I'm not really seeing a significant part of the playerbase even having the time on their hands to actually consider the kind of playstyle this is meant to curb.



And you just pretending there couldn't possibly a problem with it is supposed to be any better?

Besides, you're not actually disproving them being timers by comparing them to themselves. Torments are soft enrages.

Soft enrages still limit how much time you can spend on something, which makes them functionally timers.

You should (maybe you did) feedback your top point to Blizz. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

[huth]

Then there is no point in your complaining. Youa re literally whining about something that does not affect you in any way.

The timers affect everybody. The issue they're supposed to solve doesn't, and it's questionable whether it affects anybody at all.

You should (maybe you did) feedback your top point to Blizz. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Kinda hindered by being EU based and not having the alpha here. But the points have already been brought up in the Alpha forum, in addition to an overwhelmingly negative response to Torments in general.

[rrayy]

The timers affect everybody. The issue they're supposed to solve doesn't, and it's questionable whether it affects anybody at all.

So first you say it affects everyone then you claim it likely affects nobody. It can't affect everyone if it affects nobody.

[gorkos]

So first you say it affects everyone then you claim it likely affects nobody. It can't affect everyone if it affects nobody.

I am pretty sure what they are saying is that Blizzards solution to stop people waiting around for bloodlust (which is a small minority of people) affects the rest of us negatively.

[huth]

So first you say it affects everyone then you claim it likely affects nobody. It can't affect everyone if it affects nobody.

It's certainly affecting your reading comprehension, if you think that the issue the timers are supposed to solve and said timers are the same thing.

[rrayy]

I am pretty sure what they are saying is that Blizzards solution to stop people waiting around for bloodlust (which is a small minority of people) affects the rest of us negatively.

Except it doesn't. It has no bearing on you ability to play as the OP has already admitted.

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It's certainly affecting your reading comprehension, if you think that the issue the timers are supposed to solve and said timers are the same thing.

You miss my point entirely. You can't say it affects everybody then admit you aren't even sure it will affect anyone. You can't have it both ways.