Who lost its soul? Veteran Players or the Game?

[letssee]

the game 100000%

[Morssoe]

Game changed for leftist agenda that wants trophy for participating and activision is explointing this with money grabs that fit perfectly that kind of environment where effort and skill is toxic. As you can see some systems that are so hated that has anykind of rating of how you perform. damage meters and rio.

[Kralljin]

I would however say that things get changed and implemented by "popular vote" (or call it feedback they listened to - like Paladins for Horde. Or flying in Azeroth. But the way flying was implemented was ofc Blizzard's decision. And although players wanted it, Blizzard did indeed never turn around and said ""you voted for this" after it turns out to be a shite decision." (if you think it was a shite decision..as some ppl do...hell at this point some ppl and even devs thing the general idea of lying was wrong)

Nah, issue here is, Blizzard kept always touting "Forums are just a minority", you cannot drive a two way street here by then saying certain decisions were largely driven by a force that you also call a minority.
At the end of the day, you will always find some group within the community that agrees with the decision, regardless of the decision, which makes it a void argument to say "people wanted this".

Blizzard could remove Mythic / LFR based on "forum feedback" as well.

[A Blue Smurf]

you can find a bunch of shitty kids that ignore meta and go beat your head on a boss blind, if you want.
that'll surely make your rpg experience better

And how would that change anything?
How does that make the world more challenging/meaningful? How does that affect the APM focused rotational gameplay?
At what point does any encounter require/encourage you stop and consider how you might approach it?

There comes a time when pushing keys you definitely have to consider when and what cooldowns to use, but that's only because the timer dictates that to you. It's not about the encounter, it's about maximizing the effeciencies of performance in correlation to the timer as to avoid unnecessary downtime.

The problem is that there is a meta, that it's actively encouraged and designed around. That the majority of expansion content is specifically intended to upset the existing meta and 'shake things up'.

Expansions don't expand upon anything; they destroy, remove and/or invalidate existing content for the purpose of breaking up a meta that was designed and implemented by the very team that acknowledges it isn't healthy or sustainable.

Being ignorant doesn't negate the fact that there is a correct way to play, and not following that way doesn't eliminate it's existence nor does it alter the fact that the developers intend for it to be that way.

The moment the developers started dictating how you should play is the moment this pathway started and it has lead to a singular, predictable outcome. The game has been designed into a corner and public faces of the development team continuously refuse to turn around and acknowledge it.

[MoanaLisa]

I would need to re-program my brain to read and pay attention to every single quest about the covenants and the current situation of shadowlands.

Will i do it?

This is the 3rd expansion i said to myself, "im so excited i will read all quest texts this time!" This is also the 3rd expansion in a row i fail to do it.

Personally, I think the font they use for quest text is hard to read. You can't change it, you can't really make it bigger. I don't know how much of a difference it would make to have that be set up to personal preference but I suspect that's one of the problems.

[Kralljin]

Maybe LFR...but surely not mythic? Seems quite popular...both as a raid difficulty as in 5 mans. Definitely see more LFR hate here, hardly any on mythic. Kinda also rounds up nice long World First "discussions"

Point is to highlight that any change will have some supporters within the community.
Some people also believe that the min/max culture will vanish once difficult content is gone (despite Classic showing that this is absolutely not the case).

Also: maybe they get their feedback from more than forums?

Sort of, i mean, they have surveys, but i think any halfway relevant survey gets leaked to the public anyway, so that automatically becomes a public discussion as well.

I think Blizzard very often relies on internal data, rather than actual player feedback, data however can be interpretated in a lot of ways.

For example, Alter time was raised as one of the example of spells that a lot of Mages hadn't even bound, thus it was removed post WoD (=Pruning), i doubt Blizzard had sent surveys out to mages and asked them "do you have Alter time on your bars"?
So they probably consulted their own data when it came to pruning, saw a lot of mages didn't use Alter time and axe'd it.

Maybe one should've asked in the first place whether the fact some mages aren't using Alter time, justifies its removal.

The last option here then would be those channels that are concealed from the public and only accessible if you have some connection to Blizzard, those for highend PvP'ers / PvE'ers or content creators.
The GCD change was supposedly suggested by a PvP Player on how to slow the game down a bit.

At the end of the day, even a change that has a broad support doesn't automatically get implemented into the game unless the devs agree with feedback to a certain degree.

Let's not forget, the president of Blizzard told people "You think you do, but you don't", only to realize a few years later that those people that actually want it aren't such a tiny minority Blizzard thought they would be.

[Laughingjack]

Point is to highlight that any change will have some supporters within the community.
Some people also believe that the min/max culture will vanish once difficult content is gone (despite Classic showing that this is absolutely not the case).

Sort of, i mean, they have surveys, but i think any halfway relevant survey gets leaked to the public anyway, so that automatically becomes a public discussion as well.

I think Blizzard very often relies on internal data, rather than actual player feedback, data however can be interpretated in a lot of ways.

For example, Alter time was raised as one of the example of spells that a lot of Mages hadn't even bound, thus it was removed post WoD (=Pruning), i doubt Blizzard had sent surveys out to mages and asked them "do you have Alter time on your bars"?
So they probably consulted their own data when it came to pruning, saw a lot of mages didn't use Alter time and axe'd it.

Maybe one should've asked in the first place whether the fact some mages aren't using Alter time, justifies its removal.

The last option here then would be those channels that are concealed from the public and only accessible if you have some connection to Blizzard, those for highend PvP'ers / PvE'ers or content creators.
The GCD change was supposedly suggested by a PvP Player on how to slow the game down a bit.

At the end of the day, even a change that has a broad support doesn't automatically get implemented into the game unless the devs agree with feedback to a certain degree.

Let's not forget, the president of Blizzard told people "You think you do, but you don't", only to realize a few years later that those people that actually want it aren't such a tiny minority Blizzard thought they would be.

To be fair altered time was so gutted as to be one of the most unreliable damage reduction cds in the game that also had the drawback of forcing your character to displace it wasn't a good ability beyond its original intention as a offensive cd.

The forums are read though they are more monitored then most players are away of. There are hidden sections in the forum you cannot access without a flagged account ( At least there was in the previous iteration of the forums there was I can't speak for the new ones). I know of three that exist but only had access to one. One was for high end pve theory crafting. Another was for pvp though I was only told of that one and one for green posters.

The general forums are monitored as well. Perhaps they don't take feedback but they do crack down on posters who stir up trouble even if they are not actually breaking any of the written rules.

[Beefhammer]

Absolutely. I always think just them seeing us do tons of WQs, doesn't mean we enjoy them...we just go through them for whatever reasons. Then again...if you have to always keep in the back of your mind that ppl only do things because they "feel force" or hate them...that is not a good thought to have (and for us we should question our sanity why we do things we hate in a hobby that we even pay for)

But, people complained to no end about Daily caps and rejoiced once they were lifted. If they feel forced to do WQs, that is on them. I mean to some degree you have to play the game to get rewards. Almost at every turn we have people complaining about having to actually play the game(being forced) in some form or fashion. At least with WQs you only really need to do 4 a day. Everything else is gravy.

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Nah, issue here is, Blizzard kept always touting "Forums are just a minority", you cannot drive a two way street here by then saying certain decisions were largely driven by a force that you also call a minority.
At the end of the day, you will always find some group within the community that agrees with the decision, regardless of the decision, which makes it a void argument to say "people wanted this".

Blizzard could remove Mythic / LFR based on "forum feedback" as well.

They also have access to who is actually posting. When the forums went ablaze over the removal of PL from dungeons and immediately reverted back, I'm pretty sure that had a significant amount of individual accounts and accounts that may have ever or rarely posted before on the subject to warrant the change based of forum feedback. Typically here it's the same dozen or so circle-jerking themselves off about who hates this new feature more and how it will spell doom and gloom for WoW.

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you can find a bunch of shitty kids that ignore meta and go beat your head on a boss blind, if you want.
that'll surely make your rpg experience better

My guild then(Cata)had a play what you want how you want policy. Some played the meta and had plenty of alts to swap out for certain fights and to play the FotM spec. But most of us played the classes and builds we preferred to play. We still had plenty of fun and cleared heroic raids. Currently, they still clear Heroics, and casually clear about half of Mythic before the new raid comes out. SO you can do just fine. Not everyone wants to be at the bleeding edge of progression or in a competition, plenty of us play the game becasue we have fun. Go figure.

[Big Thanks]

Oh, I totally get it and agree...a lot of stuff is "on you"....sure, blame Blizzard if the guild "forces" you to do stuff, but really....do ppl have no mind of their own of what they want to do with their free time? Why not chose an activity that relaxes them and makes them happy?

Hell...recently there was a guy complaining how he hates the sheer concept of levelling and questing...and I was like...do I really have to respect the opinion of people who pick an MMORPG to play and then complain about some of the most basic things that have forever been a part of it? Answer is obviously "Nope" (Again: Clarification: The poster didn't dislike the way Blizzard implemented it...he / she hated the concept that questing and levelling even existed)

Dont you agree "questing" kinda makes no sense?

-You are never rewarded for reading the quest text.
-Is literally just a chore with a GPS telling you where to click and where to go
-Is not even considered "content"
-Blizzard makes 500 quests every expansion and for what? For disposable content?

In games like "Shadowrun" i can spend hours reading text and be totally immersed and constatnly rewarded for reading everything and paying attention.

I must say...i ALSO dont understand the questing concept...

[Beefhammer]

Oh, I totally get it and agree...a lot of stuff is "on you"....sure, blame Blizzard if the guild "forces" you to do stuff, but really....do ppl have no mind of their own of what they want to do with their free time? Why not chose an activity that relaxes them and makes them happy?

Hell...recently there was a guy complaining how he hates the sheer concept of levelling and questing...and I was like...do I really have to respect the opinion of people who pick an MMORPG to play and then complain about some of the most basic things that have forever been a part of it? Answer is obviously "Nope" (Again: Clarification: The poster didn't dislike the way Blizzard implemented it...he / she hated the concept that questing and levelling even existed)

Exactly. Seriously, why are you playing and MMO or even and RPG if you hate the concept of leveling? It's like the people who those pets and transmogs from IEs but are pissed they have to run IEs. Seriously. Sure you may not like them but that is where they are. If you want them go get them or politely shut the fuck up.

[Big Thanks]

Exactly. Seriously, why are you playing and MMO or even and RPG if you hate the concept of leveling? It's like the people who those pets and transmogs from IEs but are pissed they have to run IEs. Seriously. Sure you may not like them but that is where they are. If you want them go get them or politely shut the fuck up.

Could you be honest on this answer?

Do you even pay attention on every quest you do and read quest text?
Or is it just an automatic chore you do as fast as possible without giving a fuck about anything?

Try playing "Shadowrun" on Steam an actual Dungeons and Dragons genre and tell me if it doesnt do it 100 times better

[Beefhammer]

Dont you agree "questing" kinda makes no sense?

-You are never rewarded for reading the quest text.
-Is literally just a chore with a GPS telling you where to click and where to go
-Is not even considered "content"
-Blizzard makes 500 quests every expansion and for what? For disposable content?

In games like "Shadowrun" i can spend hours reading text and be totally immersed and constatnly rewarded for reading everything and paying attention.

I must say...i ALSO dont understand the questing concept...

You are reward for reading the quest text by getting a better understanding of the story. I love how so many of you complain about a lack of story or how something doesn't make sense, but pretty much 100% of that lack of understanding comes from clicking accept and running to the marked area on the map and killing or interacting with the highlighted things and running back to turn in click on a reward. I read all quest text, all readable items given and found, all of it is right there in front of most.

If leveling is a chore than everything is a chore. I mean why run a dungeon it's just a chore you do to potentially get loot?

You don't consider it content. That doesn't mean it is not content. It contains the backbones of the story for the expansion and gives meaning to the "chore" you are about to do.

So you do it for one game but not another. Try doing it in WoW you might be amazed for how much more about the expansion you will find out.

You don't get questing but you like Shadowrun? Where you get quests and eventually level up your character? You are something.

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Could you be honest on this answer?

Do you even pay attention on every quest you do and read quest text?
Or is it just an automatic chore you do as fast as possible without giving a fuck about anything?

Try playing "Shadowrun" on Steam an actual Dungeons and Dragons genre and tell me if it doesnt do it 100 times better

See above. Never claimed WoW was the pinnacle of quest design or story telling. And I have played all the Shadowrun games from PnP and SNES-PC, as well as pretty much every iteration of PnP D&D and most of their PC and some console games. I understand the difference.

[crusadernero]

Could you be honest on this answer?

Do you even pay attention on every quest you do and read quest text?
Or is it just an automatic chore you do as fast as possible without giving a fuck about anything?

Try playing "Shadowrun" on Steam an actual Dungeons and Dragons genre and tell me if it doesnt do it 100 times better

I do. Always have the first time doing new quests. Ofc it gets mundane after having done them 129376173 times, but the first time I always pay attention.

You dont need to read em, but you can. If you choose not to read the quests, dont complain that the quests lack information or whatever. Theres been many a time that I have discovered cool things about NPCs, zones or other stuff cause I have read quest texts.

[Kehego]

But, people complained to no end about Daily caps and rejoiced once they were lifted. If they feel forced to do WQs, that is on them. I mean to some degree you have to play the game to get rewards. Almost at every turn we have people complaining about having to actually play the game(being forced) in some form or fashion. At least with WQs you only really need to do 4 a day. Everything else is gravy.

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They also have access to who is actually posting. When the forums went ablaze over the removal of PL from dungeons and immediately reverted back, I'm pretty sure that had a significant amount of individual accounts and accounts that may have ever or rarely posted before on the subject to warrant the change based of forum feedback. Typically here it's the same dozen or so circle-jerking themselves off about who hates this new feature more and how it will spell doom and gloom for WoW.

- - - Updated - - -



My guild then(Cata)had a play what you want how you want policy. Some played the meta and had plenty of alts to swap out for certain fights and to play the FotM spec. But most of us played the classes and builds we preferred to play. We still had plenty of fun and cleared heroic raids. Currently, they still clear Heroics, and casually clear about half of Mythic before the new raid comes out. SO you can do just fine. Not everyone wants to be at the bleeding edge of progression or in a competition, plenty of us play the game becasue we have fun. Go figure.

sounds like a bunch of people doing their homework and carrying the rest, tbh.

[Beefhammer]

sounds like a bunch of people doing their homework and carrying the rest, tbh.

It actually sounds like a group of people that don't give a fuck about what people like you and the meta sheep think and are just about having fun. If there was a concern those people would have left many moons ago, but yet, I come back after a 6 year hiatus and the gang is still there having fun not caring about progression. Just drinking and having social time on discord(now) while raiding.

[Big Thanks]

You are reward for reading the quest text by getting a better understanding of the story. I love how so many of you complain about a lack of story or how something doesn't make sense, but pretty much 100% of that lack of understanding comes from clicking accept and running to the marked area on the map and killing or interacting with the highlighted things and running back to turn in click on a reward. I read all quest text, all readable items given and found, all of it is right there in front of most.

If leveling is a chore than everything is a chore. I mean why run a dungeon it's just a chore you do to potentially get loot?

You don't consider it content. That doesn't mean it is not content. It contains the backbones of the story for the expansion and gives meaning to the "chore" you are about to do.

So you do it for one game but not another. Try doing it in WoW you might be amazed for how much more about the expansion you will find out.

You don't get questing but you like Shadowrun? Where you get quests and eventually level up your character? You are something.

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See above. Never claimed WoW was the pinnacle of quest design or story telling. And I have played all the Shadowrun games from PnP and SNES-PC, as well as pretty much every iteration of PnP D&D and most of their PC and some console games. I understand the difference.

I told myself i would do it in BFA (read quest text) but i just couldnt do it
Maybe is because the majority of quests make no sense and not ALL quests are designed to be interesting.

Is cool you played a lot of D&D type of games I started 3 days ago for the first time and is a breath of fresh air.

Im constantly rewarded for paying attention and reading everything.

Like, for example, i was looking for someone on a Hotel...i found a computer and typed the name of the person i was looking for....and behold the information was given to me where he was.

Really cool

[Beefhammer]

I told myself i would do it in BFA (read quest text) but i just couldnt do it
Maybe is because the majority of quests make no sense and not ALL quests are designed to be interesting.

Is cool you played a lot of D&D type of games I started 3 days ago for the first time and is a breath of fresh air.

Im constantly rewarded for paying attention and reading everything.

Like, for example, i was looking for someone on a Hotel...i found a computer and typed the name of the person i was looking for....and behold the information was given to me where he was.

Really cool

I have a 35 year campaign still going with old school buddies.

But seriously, there is more than enough information in WoW's quests to fill in between the cinematics.

[Philomene]

The game, definitely. This isn’t WoW anymore, it is diablo and it has been for years. Random loot, random stats, bounties (world quests), mythic+ (greater rifts), bloodshard gambling (any vendor right now) , season systems which were only a PvP stuff and such. I’ve been playing d3 since launch when it was given for free with a year sub during cata and I enjoyed both WoW and d3. Nowadays it’s been years I haven’t really enjoyed WoW because I feel like playing a sub-d3 which gets repetitive.

The game completely changed during WoD, classes, professions got butchered and Legion set the poor standards for the next expansions. They completely changed their audience. People who enjoy the loot and progression systems from Legion and BFA don’t enjoy what WoW was for a decade. They enjoy a more colorful version of d3 in a different setting.

I really wish they’d just take a new direction with shadowlands and go back to what WoW has been since its inception even if it evolved with time, it never really changed as deep as it changed with WoD onwards so they leave on d3/d4 people who want those endless grinds and power creep and keep on WoW people who want an adventure, a progressing universe where you can choose your own path and pace and where you have a long-term progress instead of 30 minutes bursts of activities showering you in eventually dopamine shots and having your expansion progress reset every 6 months.

[Big Thanks]

-If you need to be "rewarded" for reading..wow....I think you are born in an age and time that is alien to me. Like "Mom..if you want me to do anything around the house....reward me"?
-Yeah...I liked it better when you didn't have quest markers, but those addons became popular so Blizzard implemented it. Guess players do influence design choices, so who are you complaining to?
-Nothing in WoW has been considered "content" if somebody just wants to trigger ppl...so I don't know who you are appealing to and who is your god that tells you it isn't content
-What is it? Now suddenly it is content, just disposable?

Okay...That is great if Shadowrun does this in a satisfying way. I think you found your game.

I honestly don't think you are stupid...so I think you just decide to not understand that concept. How can one not understand the concept of levelling. I understand it can be difficult to grasp now with SL taking 70 levels away from us....kinda like..what was the point again?

What is your problem with levelling then? The sheer concept or how it is implemented therse days in WoW?

When i say "i dont feel rewarded for reading the quest" i dont mean receiving rewards (-__-)
"Rewarded" in the sense of the quest becoming easier or finding new things or unlocking a secret information dump.

I dont understand the concept of designing 500 lifeless quests.

Because they are lifeless with the odd interesting one where you are rewarded with a "laugh" or a "woooh thats interesting"

[Nite92]

its the players, and you can make 1 easy test. Go play classic and you will never get the same feeling you did when you played it as a kid

That is a quite unfair comparison. Or is opening the web browser now as exciting as the first time you got into the internet? WoW was just leaps and bounds ahead of every other game at that time. The margin is now way smaller, but for me atleast it is still the best out there. So when we talk about WoW "dying" I really think that that is mostly due to WoW not being that much than everything else out there.

But regarding the topic. Yes obviously. Playing a game for 13 years, in my case, new stuff does not feel as exciting, and even new players have most likely experienced products which are closer to WoWs quality than it would have been the case for new WoW players 15 years ago.