Another controversial thread

[Strawberry]

My infractions have expired, I got one today, but I think I can take another one.
If I get banned, see you in a month.

So, as much as I hate threads about Sweden, there has been a situation lately that caught my attention and got me thinking.

We have quite a few beggars in Sweden who sit in front of each shop.
It must be profitable as they won't give up. But of course, it's all organized crime.
They didn't come on their own but were brought to Sweden from poor EU countries by people who use them for their own profit. They set them in front of each store and collect money from them when it's time.

Another situation, the news have been writing about a police razzia which arrested a dozen of men who bought sex. One of them was somewhat of a well known guy here.
Prostitution is forbidden in Sweden, as it is in many other countries.
The women in question were from poor EU countries brought to Sweden by other people. They definitely didn't come on their own.

Just like the beggars.
In both cases, people from poor the countries are brought to a rich country and used by someone else.
But one is forbidden, and the other isn't.
Why not forbid both?

[breadisfunny]

this thread is going places.

[Strawberry]

this thread is going places.

Awaiting with excitement.
Although mods are usually from the western hemisphere and are more active this time of the day. Might get locked before I even get a decent reply.
Still, it's not a forbidden topic. I checked the sticky.

[AeneasBK]

I suspect if it can be proven that these beggars are being exploited then it is also forbidden.

Organised crime and human trafficking aren't taken lightly, they're just hard to police.

[Demolitia]

My infractions have expired, I got one today, but I think I can take another one.
If I get banned, see you in a month.

So, as much as I hate threads about Sweden, there has been a situation lately that caught my attention and got me thinking.

We have quite a few beggars in Sweden who sit in front of each shop.
It must be profitable as they won't give up. But of course, it's all organized crime.
They didn't come on their own but were brought to Sweden from poor EU countries by people who use them for their own profit. They set them in front of each store and collect money from them when it's time.

Another situation, the news have been writing about a police razzia which arrested a dozen of men who bought sex. One of them was somewhat of a well known guy here.
Prostitution is forbidden in Sweden, as it is in many other countries.
The women in question were from poor EU countries brought to Sweden by other people. They definitely didn't come on their own.

Just like the beggars.
In both cases, people from poor the countries are brought to a rich country and used by someone else.
But one is forbidden, and the other isn't.
Why not forbid both?

Yup, see you in a month

[Strawberry]

I suspect if it can be proven that these beggars are being exploited then it is also forbidden.

Organised crime and human trafficking aren't taken lightly, they're just hard to police.

It's been proven that it's organized crime.
The money collectors are not called pimps, but they are basically the same.

[beanman12345]

Slavery is bad. If the beggers are also slaves, then yes it should be forbidden. But idk anything about begging slaves to make much comment on it.

[AeneasBK]

It's been proven that it's organized crime.

Well then I'd imagine the operations are longer-lasting and more involved than just grabbing some street "pimps" and locking them up; but who knows maybe they do simply not care because 'beggars' - classism is a helluva drug.

[Kumorii]

Well then I'd imagine the operations are longer-lasting and more involved than just grabbing some street "pimps" and locking them up; but who knows maybe they do simply not care because 'beggars' - classism is a helluva drug.

It's the opposite tbh. When people started to talk about it being organized people took it as victim blaming and it became taboo to talk about it. Then some undercover things managed to actually prove it's true in some cases. Hard to say how wide spread it is, but the damage is done. It's still fairly taboo to mention it being organized.

[AeneasBK]

It's the opposite tbh. When people started to talk about it being organized people took it as victim blaming and it became taboo to talk about it. Then some undercover things managed to actually prove it's true in some cases. Hard to say how wide spread it is, but the damage is done. It's still fairly taboo to mention it being organized.

I don't get the connection if it's being blamed on organised crime then surely that's the opposite of blaming the victim. Is it the case that now people are less generous to beggars because theres a widespread taboo about them all working for gangs, but no one wants to admit it because then they seem cheap or heartless (towards those genuine cases which must still exist)?

[Boricha]

How can you tell a genuine beggar from one who isn't? This sounds very hard to police. Are there not loitering laws in Sweden that would prevent this?

[beanman12345]

How can you tell a genuine beggar from one who isn't? This sounds very hard to police. Are there not loitering laws in Sweden that would prevent this?

Good question. I have heard of scammers in some countries, older women specifically, who come up to you begging for you to buy them rice(the expensive stuff) and milk and such for their children, and they'll turn around after you leave to resell them back to a vendor for the money, the children are in on the scam. But slave begging, hmm. I agree I also feel like it would be very hard and a lot of time and effort to stop, but if it exists, than imo such effort should be exerted to prevent it where possible.

[shadowmouse]

Human trafficking sounds like a legit topic, and no reason to limit it to Sweden so it shouldn't come off as nation bashing. It is a huge problem, and although it usually catches the news in connection with sex work it is not limited to sex work.

Begging, gangs, and crime have been a known problem for ages. Fagin and Oliver Twist come to mind. As others have mentioned though, the line between charity and the abuse of that charity is a fine one. At a guess, there probably are laws that get broken, but in terms of resources the cost of busting begging is just too high and by the time the organized crime aspect could get busted the prosecution will be going with more serious charges.

[s_bushido]

Are we just now finding about about human trafficking? Adorable.

But I would like to see some evidence that beggars aren't just beggars, but are instead nefarious agents of organized crime.

[Bodonius]

When if first came up that it might be organized it was called Fake news, but later was proven it was true (and ofcause, why would beggers go to northen part of Sweden if it wasnt organized they would stay in big cities instead of paying extra to travel far north).

They have to "pay" to come here, its cheap but they have to work it of until they can earn money for themself, but if they actually manage to do that the "pimps" probably still take it. There was a story about a older man that was told they would come to Sweden to work, when he came they told him to beg but he wasnt good enough at it so they forced him to shoplift. If he was a woman maybe they would have forced him to sell sex instead who knows.

Im pretty sure that whoever traffic people here for begging also are involved in scams and other crimes, but it seems like its only the sex trafficing that there is a focus on.

[Kumorii]

I don't get the connection if it's being blamed on organised crime then surely that's the opposite of blaming the victim. Is it the case that now people are less generous to beggars because theres a widespread taboo about them all working for gangs, but no one wants to admit it because then they seem cheap or heartless (towards those genuine cases which must still exist)?

The thing is that the ones begging are being used. They are not there willingly begging, and they are practically being a beggar with or without anyone forcing. No home, struggle to get food etc etc. I can imagine they think that as you say they try to minimize the stigma so the ones who are genuine gets money given to them as well as that the ones who are being used actually need the money as well.

In short, it was seen as kicking someone who was already down. That stigma kept going even if it was proven and people downplay the organized part claiming it's fringe cases. Same as with most discussions it gets laced with things such as racism. People who are racists obviously jumps on the smoking gun to prove what they are against for racist reasons, has some more legit reason behind it. Then the vocal anti-racists jumps in and start claiming everyone who is against begging is a racist. Which means the entire discussion is contaminated.

[Strawberry]

Are we just now finding about about human trafficking? Adorable.

But I would like to see some evidence that beggars aren't just beggars, but are instead nefarious agents of organized crime.

You sound naive.

- - - Updated - - -

Human trafficking sounds like a legit topic, and no reason to limit it to Sweden so it shouldn't come off as nation bashing. It is a huge problem, and although it usually catches the news in connection with sex work it is not limited to sex work.

Begging, gangs, and crime have been a known problem for ages. Fagin and Oliver Twist come to mind. As others have mentioned though, the line between charity and the abuse of that charity is a fine one. At a guess, there probably are laws that get broken, but in terms of resources the cost of busting begging is just too high and by the time the organized crime aspect could get busted the prosecution will be going with more serious charges.

Beggars and their pimps are easier to bust than sex traffickers because the beggars are not in hiding.
Besides, a couple or so years ago there was a scandal when a police document leaked which showed that they had a register over gypsies in Sweden.

I'm questioning why the law is treating those differently.

[shadowmouse]

Beggars and their pimps are easier to bust than sex traffickers because the beggars are not in hiding.

Not necessarily true. Beggars are visible, that doesn't make it easy to bust them. Criminals can be right bastards about that, they know the excuses and the grey areas in law.

Roust them, and they may merely relocate. Bust them and you get little significant change, there will be a new person in that spot as soon as police have to shift their forces to another area. You get a guy and maybe the equivalent of 20 bucks, and to do anything you are out the cost of the cops' time to process them, probably the cost of lock up if it gets to that, and the time of courts and prosecution.

Try to bust the Fagins of the story and you have to work your way through the cut outs. By the time you get higher up in the chain, you've gotten into the actual human trafficking and probably other, more serious crimes. It takes time, look at prosecutions of organized crime, but it is likely to be mid and upper tier busts with a trickle down that has a temporary impact on the low level stuff. It will also be the low level stuff that is the first to start back up because it is so petty a crime that any aspiring thug can get into it.

[Strawberry]

Not necessarily true. Beggars are visible, that doesn't make it easy to bust them. Criminals can be right bastards about that, they know the excuses and the grey areas in law.

Roust them, and they may merely relocate. Bust them and you get little significant change, there will be a new person in that spot as soon as police have to shift their forces to another area. You get a guy and maybe the equivalent of 20 bucks, and to do anything you are out the cost of the cops' time to process them, probably the cost of lock up if it gets to that, and the time of courts and prosecution.

Try to bust the Fagins of the story and you have to work your way through the cut outs. By the time you get higher up in the chain, you've gotten into the actual human trafficking and probably other, more serious crimes. It takes time, look at prosecutions of organized crime, but it is likely to be mid and upper tier busts with a trickle down that has a temporary impact on the low level stuff. It will also be the low level stuff that is the first to start back up because it is so petty a crime that any aspiring thug can get into it.

I think we're talking about different situations.
Yoy probably have a picture of China. New beggars just fill the spot because they are locals.
The beggars in Sweden from from countries like Romania and Bulgaria. They won't fill up the spot that easily.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, the dislike for the beggars is totally not about not liking the romani people when you use the term gypsies. That's just a coincidence I suspect you would have us believe?

Eh, I'm sorry mister/miss for offending your sensitive character.

sarcasm

[shadowmouse]

They won't fill up the spot that easily.

If there is money, they'll fill the spot. I'm actually thinking back to a time when I had to be up on things like gang activity and organized crime. Resources are limited. There are only so many police, so many cells, and so much time available on court dockets. Processing beggars simply isn't high priority.