Democrats Have Abandoned Civil Liberties

[Jastall]

The problem with your position is its ultimately dependent on a relativistic standard. The standard for being "Good on civil liberties" shouldn't be "Are they better than someone whom is plausibly worse" and I even say plausibly as I can't for sure measure and weigh how one defines worse in that respect. Is say a Gulag better if there are slightly less daily executions for example? Or is saying the person who does slightly less purges in the gulag like a hero of Civil Liberties and we should be emotionally invested in and super grateful to the new leader who does slightly less daily executions?

I am stating there is an objective standard that should be measured against and failure to meet it is the problem. Basically if this were a test it seems a lot of you are advocating that we grade these parties and politicians on a curve so that there is a chance a low performing person can get a few notches higher marks, I'm saying to not grade on a curve with this.

Every standard is relative in politics. As I said, for his time Lincoln was fairly progressive, now he'd be far-right on issues of race, and the radical Republicans of the time were the people who (gasp!) thought blacks and whites were equal, which a vast majority takes as a matter of course now. Within America there are a variety of positions in regards to, say, women's rights, but damn near everyone there agrees that the situation of said rights in Saudi Arabia or some African countries is appalling. I'm sure anyone can think of countless other examples in the US alone, divided as it is among social, cultural and most of all economic lines. Even your Supreme Court is politicized as fuck, where in most Western democracies it is far less.

You're trying to claim there's some set-in-stone objective standard that cannot really exist and you yourself even admit cannot be measured, then do your damnest to hold the Democrats and only them to it. That's why people are calling bullshit, it's an untenable position that falls apart the moment there's a hint of scrutiny thrown its way. You just want to shit on the Democrats and people who might support the party. Fine, have it your way, you have a right not to like them for whatever reason. Just don't sugarcoat it with fake-ass concerns and standards that don't fool anybody.

[Yuujin]

What is my side?

That is the joke, Theo. You don't have a side. Whatever you are going for, you end up coming off as a 18-24 enlightened philosophical woke individual and present more and more unhinged positions while simultaneously supporting none of them. You just scream into the void in hope that someone will scream back but you've got nothing to lose because you represent nothing so you end up coming out on top (in your mind) either way. You just adopt a stance mid reply, based off of the responses you are getting.

If anything, your threads are predictably amusing.

[PC2]

Yup, I don't like liars and fraudsters, so Yeah I don't like you. You are right about that, go figure.

wth?? What's the point of engaging in a discussion if you don't think someone is genuinely interested in ideas and figuring out what is more or less accurate. It seems pointless to me.

[Yuujin]

Except, the OP literally supports apartheid... so she's not actually trying to say that. She's just slinging shit, pretending to actually care, when it's all just to shill for Trump. That's been her thing for 5 years and counting.

I really think it is just for attention, dude.

[beanman12345]

wth?? What's the point of engaging in a discussion if you don't think someone is genuinely interested in ideas and figuring out what is more or less accurate. It seems pointless to me.

Op doesnt want that. Just attention.

[Draco-Onis]

(Source)

The Blue Party’s Trump-era Embrace of Authoritarianism Isn’t Just Wrong, it’s a Fatal Political Mistake says journalist Matt Taibbi in a fairly exhaustive take down of the bizarre embrace of spying, and the completely nonsensical claims of "rule of law" whilst essentially eviscerating civil liberties and embracing government agency abuse of power for political aims and ambitions. From the bogus and defunct RussiaGate whose tendrils still burrow deep for some, to Obama's warrentless wiretaps, attacks on the press and drone strikes, a lot of moral preening in Trump era appears to be empty rhetoric at best.

Let's talk about facts.

Michael Flynn is a veteran of the intelligence game has been part of it for years along with experienced in the armed forces.
He has access to the highest levels of power including having the president as his advocate.
He spoke to the FBI voluntarily under the best legal counsel money can buy.
He admitted to guilt twice with both Trump and Pence citing his lies as reasons for his removal.
He has taken money from Russia and Turkey without disclosing it and lied about it.
He went from being against Edrogan to advocating for him openly.
He is now a registered agent of the Turkish government.

So I am fine with reform to spying practices and the protection of civil liberties and also judicial reform but pardon my french fuck that traitorous piece of shit Michael Flynn. I am surprised that so many of you are throwing yourselves to die on this cliff, he is the worse example or advocate for any of this. He sold out his country the only reason the DOJ is giving him special treatment is because he is one of the president's lackeys. You want to fight for all these things that are right don't tie them to shit stains like Mike Flynn.

[eschatological]

You know, part off me can to some extend understand it. Like I am conservative, albeit not american conservative; so no go burning me on the cross here!
The feeling of abandonment that some conservatives have, like Skroe and a few others on here, can lead you down a strange path of thoughts and conspiracies (not saying that is what those people have done). And if one has been in the past, in the belief that Democrats were morally strong, and then that kind of falls flat when you come to understand how they vote and operate, and how despicable (and frankly close to republicans it is), you could find news like this more suited as some big aha moment.

Here's the thing though. Progressives/liberals don't have this problem. No anti-abolitionist considered themselves Democrat during the Civil War. They were all Republicans. The left side of the spectrum actually support the party which supports their beliefs, to the point that the Left is fracturing to people who think the Dems aren't left enough (and in many cases, they aren't). When a Democrat passed Civil Rights, the last bastion of Republican liberals (the Rockefellers come to mind) became extinct.

[Edge-]

Who needs the 4th amendment anyways? Well just scratch that one out.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Which parts are being violated, and how are they being violated?

Why haven't civil rights groups filed suit?

Why haven't conservatives filed suit?

Why have Constitutional scholars and lawyers been silent on this matter?

You raise a lot of questions and I'm hoping you also have some answers, because now I'm curious!

[Theodarzna]

You know we can look at your Thread Started history and see that what you posted about back then is wildly different than what you post about now; the topics are almost completely opposite of each other.

So far nobody has managed to prove anything about my started threads except for stuff I've always claimed about myself.

[Edge-]

https://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/07/30/p...act/index.html

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/1...sa-patriot-act

https://www.aclu.org/other/surveilla...usapatriot-act

Amazing all the information you can find if you actually cared to look.


https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment...ot-act-of-2001

I thought you were responding to my mention of the re-open protests and the current shelter-in-place orders rather than the Patriot Act, my bad. You're correct.

[Dontrike]

So don't even bother posting constructively, seems like a cop out.

I am also continually amused about how bad Barr has been seen, but everyone seems to forget Obama and his DOJ failed to hold one Wall Street or Banking Executive responsible at all for their roll in the 2008 crisis. One that was never properly addressed. I'm not aware they even attempted a criminal case. But yes, Red Team bad.

My post is constructive in the same way the OP had factual information.

Is that any different than the DoJ now though? Barr is literally doing everything he can to stop anyone from getting at Trump and the shit he's done. Look, we'd all love for those executives to get a kick in the ass for that shit, but to say that's somehow worse than the DoJ personally protecting the president and acting as his personal lawyer is baffling to say the least and stupid's second cousin at worst. That's not even to mention how Barr is letting Flynn off the hook, how how handled the Mueller Report, and so much more.

You can take you "red team bad" comment and stick it right back up where you got it from.

[Theodarzna]

My post is constructive in the same way the OP had factual information.

Is that any different than the DoJ now though? Barr is literally doing everything he can to stop anyone from getting at Trump and the shit he's done. Look, we'd all love for those executives to get a kick in the ass for that shit, but to say that's somehow worse than the DoJ personally protecting the president and acting as his personal lawyer is baffling to say the least and stupid's second cousin at worst. That's not even to mention how Barr is letting Flynn off the hook, how how handled the Mueller Report, and so much more.

You can take you "red team bad" comment and stick it right back up where you got it from.

For clarification you are saying what? Matt Taibbi made every single detail up? Its fake news, what are we saying here?

[Eviscero]

I am glad you read a whole Matt Taibbi article in four minutes flat, I am impressed.

Yes, nobody could read Matt Taibbi that fast, except maybe Matt Taibbi. Matt Taibbi's writing is deeply complex, his ideas profound and layered. One doesn't just read Matt Taibbi, one savors him. Skimming a Matt Taibbi is like glancing at a Pollock, like hearing a Satie on an elevator!

- - - Updated - - -

For clarification you are saying what? Matt Taibbi made every single detail up? Its fake news, what are we saying here?

When Matt Taibbi makes something up, it becomes truth.

[Theodarzna]

Yes, nobody could read Matt Taibbi that fast, except maybe Matt Taibbi. Matt Taibbi's writing is deeply complex, his ideas profound and layered. One doesn't just read Matt Taibbi, one savors him. Skimming a Matt Taibbi is like glancing at a Pollock, like hearing a Satie on an elevator!

- - - Updated - - -

When Matt Taibbi makes something up, it becomes truth.

Well, it is easy to just look at a long article with lots of linked citations provided and say "Nah, this is fake news", so which person should I take seriously?

The journalist that I've been told we must respect, especially the journalist who brought links and citations or... *Checks Notes* The MMO Champion forum user who wrote at best four sentences which amount to "This OP is a psyop to make me doubt the Democratic Party its all fake news, IMPOSSIBLE!"

[Eviscero]

The reality is, Flynn and Trump and everyone Trump surrounds himself with are corrupt absusers of their power, who would run over their own mother if it meant getting richer and/or holding onto that power. I give zero fucks about anything Matt Taibbi has to say about the particulars of how their crimes were uncovered or any twisting of those procedures to try and discredit them. Sounds like a two-bit defense attorney tactic when thenfacts aren't on their side. Trump should be in prison, so should Flynn.

Also, Matt Taibbi "spent a year abroad studying at Leningrad State Polytechnic Institute in Saint Petersburg, Russia."

*blink ... blink*

[Theodarzna]

The reality is, Flynn and Trump and everyone Trump surrounds himself with are corrupt absusers of their power, who would run over their own mother if it meant getting richer and/or holding onto that power. I give zero fucks about anything Matt Taibbi has to say about the particulars of how their crimes were uncovered or any twisting of those procedures to try and discredit them. Sounds like a two-bit defense attorney tactic when thenfacts aren't on their side. Trump should be in prison, so should Flynn.

Also, Matt Taibbi "spent a year abroad studying at Leningrad State Polytechnic Institute in Saint Petersburg, Russia."

*blink ... blink*

So.... its all a Russian Psyop then?

[Draco-Onis]

Well, it is easy to just look at a long article with lots of linked citations provided and say "Nah, this is fake news", so which person should I take seriously?

The journalist that I've been told we must respect, especially the journalist who brought links and citations or... *Checks Notes* The MMO Champion forum user who wrote at best four sentences which amount to "This OP is a psyop to make me doubt the Democratic Party its all fake news, IMPOSSIBLE!"

The article is the equivalent of using Ted Bundy to push for criminal justice reform.

[Theodarzna]

The article is the equivalent of using Ted Bundy to push for criminal justice reform.

How so? We are getting to levels of "Only DNC Press releases can be trusted!"

[Draco-Onis]

How so? We are getting to levels of "Only DNC Press releases can be trusted!"

Because Michael Flynn is your poster boy.

[Theodarzna]

Because Michael Flynn is your poster boy.

Is he? I'm saying he wasn't part of a Russian spy game and that was all nonsense. I didn't say he was a saint.