Paladin changes that would make me play it again

[Marrilaife]

My personal wishlist for prot even though it'll probably never happen:

no holy power

no seraphim (redesign that whole row and we already have wings for dps cd, it's 2 gcds of just pressing the buffs ffs)

same uptime on active mitigation as other tanks have (so basically 100% or close to it because every competitive tank class is already there)

baseline avenger shield hitting 4 targets and giving small absorb on hit (don't wanna azerite traits be recycled as covenant powers or tradeoff talents you have to give up)

bring back WOD's stacking buff for the next self heal (bastion of glory was the name?) so if you spam heal on cd it heals for less but if you save it for a dire moment you actually feel its impact (yes I frigging love raiding with healers that throw me 1 direct heal in 20 seconds)

actual way to scale the block as a defensive stat

group buffs, paladins, shamans and druids were the OG buff classes not monks and dhs

spell warding baseline, 4m cd, share cd with bop - imagine if mass grip or spell reflect had to be picked as talents...

[roboscorcher]

Reactive gameplay skill > proactive gameplay skill IMO. You can't learn reaction time or instincts, and those types of things are often what make the difference in athletic pursuits at the tippy top, which I think competitive games with action combat should be trying to replicate (Hence: eSports, which I think wow raiding should be considered, even if it never gets an audience).

Anyways, I like it when it's easy to get a game to do what I want and the real skill differences come from those differences in physicality and strategy paid out long-term.

The biggest hindrance in skill as far as I'm concerned plaguing wow's low skill ceiling is APM being so low. Let people spam things faster. Let people who are capable of reacting to that proc faster take advantage of that. Let muscle fatigue be a thing due to having to spam so much.

We don't need more crap to keep track of or more things to add to our rotations. That's actually something I'm currently fine with. We need more ability to differentiate within that in the ways I outlined.

I agree that having interesting rotation decisions to make is good for increasing the skill ceiling, giving players something to strive for. However, a spec full of "press the big glowy buttons when they show up" is not interesting. I want seal usage to be the ceiling: where good players know which seals to stack, how to maintain them before they wear off, and when to consume them with Wake of Ashes .

I also strongly disagree with APM being the all-important solution. The Judgement window we had in Legion certainly raised the skill ceiling, but was it actually rewarding to pull off? Not really, because it was more or less the same every time. Ideally, a seal system could allow us to make dps decisions reactively, forcing us to choose between haste and holy buffs, or perhaps healing vs reduced HoPo costs.

If there's one thing I appreciate about classic ret, it's that i dont't have to play a piano to dps. The rotation is definitely too sparse, but I really think that the best rotation should not rely on spamming abilities to be competitive. Decision-making is what should set aparts the pros from everyone else.

[A Blue Smurf]

If there's one thing I appreciate about classic ret, it's that i dont't have to play a piano to dps. The rotation is definitely too sparse, but I really think that the best rotation should not rely on spamming abilities to be competitive. Decision-making is what should set aparts the pros from everyone else.

100% this, the entire game is spam spam spam as fast and as much as you possibly can.

[Jeru]

No one needs a Ret Pally Tank or Heal.

[Kithelle]

I do kinda miss seals...

[Nzx]

Reactive gameplay skill > proactive gameplay skill IMO. You can't learn reaction time or instincts, and those types of things are often what make the difference in athletic pursuits at the tippy top, which I think competitive games with action combat should be trying to replicate (Hence: eSports, which I think wow raiding should be considered, even if it never gets an audience).

Anyways, I like it when it's easy to get a game to do what I want and the real skill differences come from those differences in physicality and strategy paid out long-term.

The biggest hindrance in skill as far as I'm concerned plaguing wow's low skill ceiling is APM being so low. Let people spam things faster. Let people who are capable of reacting to that proc faster take advantage of that. Let muscle fatigue be a thing due to having to spam so much.

We don't need more crap to keep track of or more things to add to our rotations. That's actually something I'm currently fine with. We need more ability to differentiate within that in the ways I outlined.

This goes completely against the stated design goals for World of Warcraft and won't ever happen. If you're chasing twitch reaction time gameplay you're probably better off finding another game, unfortunately.

e:

Oh and in relation to APM specifically - you'd have to massively nerf boss complexity to increase the average APM for most classes. No one is going to play a game that requires Starcraft-esque 300 APM rotations in order to perform correctly for 16 hours a day during world first raid progress.

[Niroshi]

Seals returning would be kind of dope, despite the contrarians on the first page and a bit. Legit surprised yellow Arms Rogue has these kinds of defenders.

[ExiHext]

Legit surprised yellow Arms Rogue has these kinds of defenders.

Didn't play Arms this expac but I played rogue and Ret isn't similar to rogues in the slightest. That's just hyperbole.

[Niroshi]

Didn't play Arms this expac but I played rogue and Ret isn't similar to rogues in the slightest. That's just hyperbole.

Hyperbole was the intention there, so good eye.

[BeepBoo]

Oh and in relation to APM specifically - you'd have to massively nerf boss complexity to increase the average APM for most classes. No one is going to play a game that requires Starcraft-esque 300 APM rotations in order to perform correctly for 16 hours a day during world first raid progress.

Or people would take more breaks :P but 300 apm is probably a lot higher than I'm after. Whatever current lust phase APM is feels (felt?) good for a baseline on my low haste loladin.

Also, please share the stated game design goals for wow where they contradict high apm reactive play. Pretty sure arena has been that ever since it came out, and some classes (ret in wotlk) were very highly reactive "rotations"

[Nzx]

Or people would take more breaks :P but 300 apm is probably a lot higher than I'm after. Whatever current lust phase APM is feels (felt?) good for a baseline on my low haste loladin.

I'd like well geared, max stack Crusade, lusted Ret to be more common too. I played Enh shaman all through Legion and I miss the speed it played at during Antorus. I think the more likely middle ground would be playing that quickly during something like a Colossus Smash window, rather than all the time, though.

Also, please share the stated game design goals for wow where they contradict high apm reactive play. Pretty sure arena has been that ever since it came out, and some classes (ret in wotlk) were very highly reactive "rotations"

Most recently? Sloot's interview with Ion, Ion specifically stated that they want WoW to be a game played 1/1.5sec at a time and not to be twitch based. I think the fact that the best example of the rotation you're looking for was back in Wrath probably does more to confirm that than it does to disprove it.

[dcc626]

Revert back to MoP Design and i'm in.

saying "revert to MoP design" is the easiest way to be dissapointed. Because there is no way the devs just go back to an older version of a class entirely.

- - - Updated - - -

My personal wishlist for prot even though it'll probably never happen:

no holy power

no seraphim (redesign that whole row and we already have wings for dps cd, it's 2 gcds of just pressing the buffs ffs)

same uptime on active mitigation as other tanks have (so basically 100% or close to it because every competitive tank class is already there)

baseline avenger shield hitting 4 targets and giving small absorb on hit (don't wanna azerite traits be recycled as covenant powers or tradeoff talents you have to give up)

bring back WOD's stacking buff for the next self heal (bastion of glory was the name?) so if you spam heal on cd it heals for less but if you save it for a dire moment you actually feel its impact (yes I frigging love raiding with healers that throw me 1 direct heal in 20 seconds)

actual way to scale the block as a defensive stat

group buffs, paladins, shamans and druids were the OG buff classes not monks and dhs

spell warding baseline, 4m cd, share cd with bop - imagine if mass grip or spell reflect had to be picked as talents...

you are right, most of this will never happen.

[BeepBoo]

Most recently? Sloot's interview with Ion, Ion specifically stated that they want WoW to be a game played 1/1.5sec at a time and not to be twitch based. I think the fact that the best example of the rotation you're looking for was back in Wrath probably does more to confirm that than it does to disprove it.

That gives me a big sad, but ty for enlightening me.

[Nzx]

That gives me a big sad, but ty for enlightening me.

It is what it is. The best you can really do is continue playing those high haste, proc-based rotations - there are a lot of specs in the game currently that are global locked, Fury is currently the one that has me the most hooked. For what it's worth I think you're right about there needing to be some more reactivity in the game. I think the old "cooldowns off the GCD" design was infinitely better for putting that slight level of twitch reaction skill in the game, but also not significant enough that people who didn't have twitch reactions were completely fucked. It's a shame they changed that, imo.

[Marrilaife]

you are right, most of this will never happen.

Ofc not, I'm fully expecting another expansion of the only tanks taken to mythic raiding being monks and dks especially as both of them are getting pretty sweet stuff out of "unpruning".

[Ryuji]

Welcome to like every ranged class world. "it feels okay when the procs going nuts" = I hope you are talking about outside wings only here. Because with wings, its superduperburst.

Yeah I'm talking about during normal out-of-wings time.