If TBC becomes a thing, Blizzard needs to make "change" to prevent faction imbalance

[Mosha]

As the player base has aged its cynicism has grown. The top players picked what faction will dominate and it isn't likely to budge till wrath when humans become nearly cc immune.

Cc immune? That’s the biggest hyperbole I’ve heard hHaha.

[Laughingjack]

Cc immune? That’s the biggest hyperbole I’ve heard hHaha.

Nearly is the key word there. Having double insignia trinkets or two dps trinkets and a insignia is extremely powerful in formatted pvp like arenas.

[Mosha]

Nearly is the key word there. Having double insignia trinkets or two dps trinkets and a insignia is extremely powerful in formatted pvp like arenas.

I think you don't quite understand how every man works. It's just a pvp trinket and it shares cooldown with your other pvp trinkets. It is the strongest racial for sure, but the only thing it 'does' is allow you to have an extra trinket of your choosing. If you have a pvp trinket as a human, you are actually retarded.

[Laughingjack]

I think you don't quite understand how every man works. It's just a pvp trinket and it shares cooldown with your other pvp trinkets. It is the strongest racial for sure, but the only thing it 'does' is allow you to have an extra trinket of your choosing. If you have a pvp trinket as a human, you are actually retarded.

It didn't share a cd with your pvp trinket till cata. That was why every high ranked arena team was all human or almost all human. It was a extra trinket off the pvp trinkets cd.

[Naraga]

It didn't share a cd with your pvp trinket till cata. That was why every high ranked arena team was all human or almost all human. It was a extra trinket off the pvp trinkets cd.

I think you're confused with Will of the Forsaken.

Everyone was human cause it gave them 2 free trinket slots.

[Mosha]

It didn't share a cd with your pvp trinket till cata. That was why every high ranked arena team was all human or almost all human. It was a extra trinket off the pvp trinkets cd.

Incorrect.

[Laughingjack]

I think you're confused with Will of the Forsaken.

Everyone was human cause it gave them 2 free trinket slots.

I could be wrong it is a minor detail and it has been a decade but I am fairly certain that originally it did not share a cd with the pvp trinket and was nerfed later on.

[Naraga]

I could be wrong it is a minor detail and it has been a decade but I am fairly certain that originally it did not share a cd with the pvp trinket and was nerfed later on.

It shared a cd as long as I remember. Maybe in the beta it didn't or something but on release for sure.

Again I think you're confused with Will of the forsaken which started sharing a (short) cd with trinket in Cata I believe.

[Laughingjack]

It shared a cd as long as I remember. Maybe in the beta it didn't or something but on release for sure.

Again I think you're confused with Will of the forsaken which started sharing a (short) cd with trinket in Cata I believe.

No I am quite certain it didn't share a cd. I know what you are talking about and that was the meta after but originally everyman for himself shared no cd with any trinket... That said I honestly cant recall for how long that went on for. It is quite possible that it was changed prior to the final patch of the expansion I honestly dont know.

[Mosha]

No I am quite certain it didn't share a cd. I know what you are talking about and that was the meta after but originally everyman for himself shared no cd with any trinket... That said I honestly cant recall for how long that went on for. It is quite possible that it was changed prior to the final patch of the expansion I honestly dont know.

It never once worked like this. Or if it even did, it wasn’t before wrath launched (not sure what the prepatch looked like).

For all of wotlk if you had a pvp trinket as a human you were super bad

[Airlick]

No I am quite certain it didn't share a cd. I know what you are talking about and that was the meta after but originally everyman for himself shared no cd with any trinket... That said I honestly cant recall for how long that went on for. It is quite possible that it was changed prior to the final patch of the expansion I honestly dont know.

It's a pretty bold thing to do, arguing for so long while being wrong and told so multiple times. The racial did share CD with PvP trinket as soon as it was first added in the pre-WotLK patch. Every PvP tryhard rolled human strictly because you could have 2 other trinkets, preferably PvE trinkets (or battlemaster + a PvE one), which in some cases were double digits upgrades over people who didn't have them. That's the only reason, not that you could have 2 PvP trinkets.

[Will]

No I am quite certain it didn't share a cd. I know what you are talking about and that was the meta after but originally everyman for himself shared no cd with any trinket... That said I honestly cant recall for how long that went on for. It is quite possible that it was changed prior to the final patch of the expansion I honestly dont know.

it shared a cd

if you are still in denial you can literally check the comments in wowhead
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=59752/...mself#comments

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By [name removed] (3,218 – 1·5·12) on 2008/09/18 (Patch 3.0.1)
"This shares a cooldown with your PVP Trinket"
122 upvotes

If you're still in denial after this, then hit ctrl+F and search the word 'share' and scroll through every comment confirming this, also from 2008.
Then check other sites from 2008 that also confirm the same.

People like you who still believe they're right in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary are so incredibly arrogant. Human brains aren't perfect, your recollection is not perfect, yet you refuse to accept this possibility, believing everyone else to be wrong even when outnumbered. It's not even funny anymore, it's just a complete joke...

[Kithelle]

I'm not sure what your argument is.


Thing is, dot classes are weakened on both factions and each class still offers enough incentive and an unique playstyle to actually play them. Shaman and Paladins balance against each other doesn't matter as much, as they provide different playstyles, different pros and cons. You can't say one is straight up better than the other and as such the other shouldn't be played.

Seal of Blood is different. There is no redeeming quality for Alliance paladins, no difference in playstyle or what they bring to the table. They are straight up garbage without Seal of Blood, and not by a small margin either.

It's not like I'm just making stuff up here or talking about a hypothetical scenario. Every private server that didn't take stringent action to incentivize people to play Alliance over horde ended up as a single faction server.

In the grand scheme of things, for the experience you have it should not make a difference. Things like changing the macro system, preventing premades and whatever else Blizzard has done in Classic have had way larger impacts on gameplay than this ever would. And as I described before, it fits the design philosophy of Bizzard at the time too.

It's not hard to get...people want to play what they want to play, Blizzard comes in and tells them they can't do that so they leave. You really think Blizzard is that stupid?

[Sooba]

It's not hard to get...people want to play what they want to play, Blizzard comes in and tells them they can't do that so they leave. You really think Blizzard is that stupid?

What are you even arguing here? This doesn't address what he said at all.

[Mosha]

It's not hard to get...people want to play what they want to play, Blizzard comes in and tells them they can't do that so they leave. You really think Blizzard is that stupid?

You can give them a choice with faction qs. Problem solved

[Sooba]

Racials are the same of before. If it wasn’t an issue for Alliance back then why should it be an issue today?

It was an issue for the Alliance "back then". (Source: I was Alliance back then.) The only thing that kept me going as Alliance was aesthetics and inertia. I changed soon after and didn't end up swapping back until WoD. (Even then I did so knowing that I was joining the far smaller raiding community because racial faction imbalance had completely fucked raiding faction balance permanently)

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In Classic the game has been favoring the Horde, mainly for pvp and for some things pve 2, but Alliance has some advantages that is why the current pve meta is Alliance.

This has created a "okish" balance.

All Alliance advantages evaporate in TBC.

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1. TBC horde racials are a bit better. Not"absurdly broken" as some posters suggest.

2. Why are you people still arguing about sub numbers? Grow up and take that crap to a new thread so we can stay on topic. Sheesh...

3. Some minor changes really won't hurt, nor prevent TBC feeling like TBC, but might just prevent horde dominance due to the modern obsession with min-maxing everything.

I will grant that it's not "absurdly broken." However "a bit better" undersells the scope of the issue. With some fights in PvE and all fights against good opponents in PvP being balanced on a razors edge, "a bit better" becomes strongly magnified.

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Im sure those people exist.

They also represent such a tiny portion of the player base as to be inconsequential.

Let them, no one will care.

Modern numbers do not bear this out. Raiding faction imbalance in the current game is completely out of whack, and that's merely with the leftover inertia from when racials were imbalanced. All signs would suggest that a "Classic TBC" would run into the same problems. There are precisely zero reasons beyond aesthetics to roll Alliance. Back in the days of TBC there was some confusion as to what power certain racials might hold. With the benefit of hindsight we know that the optimism was misplaced. If there is a TBC Classic with no pre-announced changes in this regard, faction imbalance will be a huge issue.

[Mosha]

It was an issue for the Alliance "back then". (Source: I was Alliance back then.) The only thing that kept me going as Alliance was aesthetics and inertia. I changed soon after and didn't end up swapping back until WoD. (Even then I did so knowing that I was joining the far smaller raiding community because racial faction imbalance had completely fucked raiding faction balance permanently)

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All Alliance advantages evaporate in TBC.

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I will grant that it's not "absurdly broken." However "a bit better" undersells the scope of the issue. With some fights in PvE and all fights against good opponents in PvP being balanced on a razors edge, "a bit better" becomes strongly magnified.

Yeah from a pvp standpoint, horde really do win given equal skill level.

Like if there is an rmp team made of all humans and one made of all undead, and both teams are completely equal skill, the undead will win every time because they won’t be stuck in priest fears.

[Sooba]

Yeah from a pvp standpoint, horde really do win given equal skill level.

Like if there is an rmp team made of all humans and one made of all undead, and both teams are completely equal skill, the undead will win every time because they won’t be stuck in priest fears.

And it basically didn't matter what matrix you played. Every one had a Horde advantage. I was a resto sham who played both of the only two major 3's comps that were viable for resto at that time -- Resto/UA Lock/Shadow Priest, or Resto/Arms/Paladin (could be Ret or Holy, depending on how long you wanted your games to be). In either case a mirror matchup against Horde felt completely ridiculous. The opposing Shaman, Warrior and sometimes 'lock had more stun resist. The opposing Priest would go immune to fears in ways ours couldn't. The opposing Paladin had an AoE silence. etc.

For reference, at that time, "great" teams were around ~2250+. Good teams were ~1850+. Faction was worth ~150 points in the balance. It often was the difference between getting your Arena Shoulders / Weapon or not. (And if it made the difference in getting the current season's weapon, it was actually worth 200+ in the balance, since that extra boost to get the weapon helped even more).

[Thundering]

And it basically didn't matter what matrix you played. Every one had a Horde advantage. I was a resto sham who played both of the only two major 3's comps that were viable for resto at that time -- Resto/UA Lock/Shadow Priest, or Resto/Arms/Paladin (could be Ret or Holy, depending on how long you wanted your games to be). In either case a mirror matchup against Horde felt completely ridiculous. The opposing Shaman, Warrior and sometimes 'lock had more stun resist. The opposing Priest would go immune to fears in ways ours couldn't. The opposing Paladin had an AoE silence. etc.

For reference, at that time, "great" teams were around ~2250+. Good teams were ~1850+. Faction was worth ~150 points in the balance. It often was the difference between getting your Arena Shoulders / Weapon or not. (And if it made the difference in getting the current season's weapon, it was actually worth 200+ in the balance, since that extra boost to get the weapon helped even more).

And then this problem is magnified due to Horde competes with Alliance in TBC, in Classic it is Alliance that compete against Alliance and vise versa.

The issue can easly be fixed the only people who truly are against it is Horde players that want the unfair advantage.

In retail you can easly see how bad it has become with Horde being pretty much the only faction people play due to the advantage as assembled all series players on 1 side.

But the sad part is i highly doubt we will see any "fix"

[Naraga]

It's not hard to get...people want to play what they want to play, Blizzard comes in and tells them they can't do that so they leave. You really think Blizzard is that stupid?

I.... don't get what you're saying.

That if Alliance Paladins get Seal of Blood this means they get forced to use it? I mean, from a competitive point of view you are kind off forced to use it yes but if they don't get Seal of Blood Paladin players get forced to roll Horde. But if people really want to play without seal of blood, they still can even if its gimping them. It's not gimping them more than if they wouldn't have access to it.

And then this problem is magnified due to Horde competes with Alliance in TBC, in Classic it is Alliance that compete against Alliance and vise versa.

The issue can easly be fixed the only people who truly are against it is Horde players that want the unfair advantage.

In retail you can easly see how bad it has become with Horde being pretty much the only faction people play due to the advantage as assembled all series players on 1 side.

But the sad part is i highly doubt we will see any "fix"

The thing with reworking racials to be "balanced" is that at that point we're moving pretty far away from TBC. Changing individual racials is going to change a lot in the way the game works and its a big can of worms to open.

I think all we can realistically do is appease pve players through a very minor change like I suggested and hope that is enough to keep some semblance of server balance. Arena is unfortunately going to be Horde dominated but I'm afraid we just have to accept that.