Toxic M+ Leavers

[Greengrim]

Well deserved. Next time, don't group up with a ruskie.

It's been quite some time now, since I'm doing exactly that.

[ID811717]

Do you know what I do if I need to join a HC pug just for a single boss kill, and then intend to leave? Especially if the run is marked as "full clear, please stay till the end". I won't say hello upon joining, and I won't chat at all. I don't want to associate myself with the group. I'm in, I kill the boss, and I'm out.

In a 5-man dungeon group, the group dynamics are amplified. You are in the spotlight by default. The moment you greet the group (or god forbid engage in anything beyond saying "hi") you have committed to the group, and it becomes increasingly harder to quit on them without any explanation, as if the other 4 people are just some bots.

Pugging high keys with voice comms is the next level. It becomes ever so harder to not greet people, and to not engage them. And at the very least you have got to react to interrupt/cooldown calls by other players. It becomes much harder to just silently quit on your group instead of working together to overcome any challenges that might arise.

What are you ppl? Reading this topic, I cant believe it. Your mentality makes no sense. "If they dont say Hi, I leave the group", "silent groups are toxic and always problematic"

When I see people who quit M+ without saying a word, out of the blue, for no good reason - I often scroll up the party chat and realize... Right, it's not that they did not explain why they quit. They simply never wrote a word, ever since joining a group.

It is then easy to reconstruct one of the likely explanations to what happened: they cannot really be bothered to play... But there's a key that gives score, with a high rated leader... So they may as well give it a shot, join and get boosted, but not commit to it. Won't even bother greeting anyone. Tired of the game, tired of their own urge to play it. But if anything goes wrong - enough is enough, time to take a break!

That being said, it is simple manners to say hello upon entering new party. There is literally no excuse as to why wouldn't you say hello when meeting complete strangers. You do not have to share your life story, but some kind of greeting is pretty much mandatory.

Completely agree.

Therefore when I invite someone to my party and they do not observe the manners, they are booted. Once it happens, they would suddenly find courage to type that one '?'. It is too late though, go spend another 20 minutes in que against million other dps simply because you were unable to write hello.

That might be a bit extreme. I rather choose to engage the silent people in a conversation. And if they really cannot bothered to answer a question or two, they are likely to quit the group on their own.

This is like demanding "respect" from people on the street/store/bus/whatever. Nobody cares.

Nope. A much better analogy is if you went hitchhiking or otherwise got into a carpool, and did not bother to say a polite hello while squeezing yourself in a 4-person car for a 40-min ride. They will probably not kick you out, but they will not think highly of you either.

You can try to enforce your bullshit rules on the "millions of other dps" but try playing your fucking games with tanks once and you'll never do another dungeon until you realize saying Hi won't make or break a key.

As a tank I can tell you I could say whatever the fuck I wanted and still be kept around.

So GL with that.

Yeah, if you're a neighbor, a very distant relative, or some kind of small village cop in a uniform... They will indeed not kick you out from the car because of your status. And they might even have to take you into their car next time again. But that's just you riding out on your status, oblivious to common norms of decency... I guess it works out for some of us.

Of course, it can all just be a clash of cultures. I'm not familiar how these social norms are treated in, like, China or in the Middle East countries. It is possible that people arguing against saying "hello" in this forum are from completely culture than I am.

[Garymorilix]

Do you know what I do if I need to join a HC pug just for a single boss kill, and then intend to leave? Especially if the run is marked as "full clear, please stay till the end". I won't say hello upon joining, and I won't chat at all. I don't want to associate myself with the group. I'm in, I kill the boss, and I'm out.

In a 5-man dungeon group, the group dynamics are amplified. You are in the spotlight by default. The moment you greet the group (or god forbid engage in anything beyond saying "hi") you have committed to the group, and it becomes increasingly harder to quit on them without any explanation, as if the other 4 people are just some bots.

Pugging high keys with voice comms is the next level. It becomes ever so harder to not greet people, and to not engage them. And at the very least you have got to react to interrupt/cooldown calls by other players. It becomes much harder to just silently quit on your group instead of working together to overcome any challenges that might arise.



When I see people who quit M+ without saying a word, out of the blue, for no good reason - I often scroll up the party chat and realize... Right, it's not that they did not explain why they quit. They simply never wrote a word, ever since joining a group.

It is then easy to reconstruct one of the likely explanations to what happened: they cannot really be bothered to play... But there's a key that gives score, with a high rated leader... So they may as well give it a shot, join and get boosted, but not commit to it. Won't even bother greeting anyone. Tired of the game, tired of their own urge to play it. But if anything goes wrong - enough is enough, time to take a break!



Completely agree.



That might be a bit extreme. I rather choose to engage the silent people in a conversation. And if they really cannot bothered to answer a question or two, they are likely to quit the group on their own.



Nope. A much better analogy is if you went hitchhiking or otherwise got into a carpool, and did not bother to say a polite hello while squeezing yourself in a 4-person car for a 40-min ride. They will probably not kick you out, but they will not think highly of you either.



Yeah, if you're a neighbor, a very distant relative, or some kind of small village cop in a uniform... They will indeed not kick you out from the car because of your status. And they might even have to take you into their car next time again. But that's just you riding out on your status, oblivious to common norms of decency... I guess it works out for some of us.

Of course, it can all just be a clash of cultures. I'm not familiar how these social norms are treated in, like, China or in the Middle East countries. It is possible that people arguing against saying "hello" in this forum are from completely culture than I am.

The problem is that you are thinking backwards.

Here's how it should go by default:
They say hello, you say hello, neither of you will probably talk afterwards.
They don't say hello, who the fuck cares cuz neither of you will probably talk afterwards.

I'm not saying that nobody should ever say hi to anyone ever.
I'm saying that if someone doesn't then who the fuck cares? This goes for everything you can demand from someone irl too.

In m+ or raiding however, I can just be silent from the get-go and still out-dps or heal or whatever your ass 10 times to 1.
So while in real life you can come at people with the "but it's disrespectful" bullshit like you have some kind of moral high ground
in WoW (or any game for that matter) you can cry how your moral high ground still doesn't buy you any skills to be better than the "silent" guy.
And in my experience those who are very up-beat and all happy and talkative suck the most when it comes to the actual gameplay.

So tldr everyone would be better off not giving a fuck too much about "politeness" in an anonym online game.
You can definitely kick people for being silent but not even in +18 do people talk so who cares.
You are just wasting your and your other teammates time with being a boomer.

[Kokolums]

Unless you are pushing really high keys i would avoid the people with really high scores, take the ones with good gear and good scores but avoid those 2500+ guys unless you are yourself one and making higher keys. Many of the people with higher scores dont have patience to stay in "casual 15-16" runs if something goes wrong or if you dont pull fast enough.

I almost never see 2500+ in pugs. I think almost everyone 3K or higher either

1. run only with friends and only on easy weeks
2. are selling carries so they have like over 100 15+ runs.

[VinceVega]

I almost never see 2500+ in pugs. I think almost everyone 3K or higher either

1. run only with friends and only on easy weeks
2. are selling carries so they have like over 100 15+ runs.

People should not forget why people run mythic+ above 15. You don't get better loot. Probably you are already decked out. If we play a key and see we can't finish in time we abort the key... because... why finish?

If i join a PuG as healer over 15 (not happening often) and we have no chance of finishing it in time i ask if we need to fight through the failing further or if we should just rank down once. If no one wants to abort i play a bit and if we run into a an obvious wall over and over again i leave. Not every key needs to be finished.

[bajcli]

What are you ppl? Reading this topic, I cant believe it. Your mentality makes no sense. "If they dont say Hi, I leave the group", "silent groups are toxic and always problematic", "high rated players dont invite my low rated char", "groups go too fast for me", "ppl leave if the group slacks or keep dying"...I might be a minority, but I personally prefer ppl, who are silent or even toxic af, if they do their job well over a super friendly guy, who's all sunshine and rainbow, but plays completely garbo.

I know it's a crazy concept, but you don't have to be toxic to be doing your job well; you can be a perfectly normal human being AND be good at a video game at the same time. Hell, you can even say hi, and not be completely garbo!
(also, the guy who leaves if no one says hi has no way of knowing if the others in the group are even good, you can't exactly be sure beforehand that "these are all sick players, only they're silent")

[Lurker1]

This is how i solved this issue for myself after legion i only do it on Mythic o during the heroic item quest weekly i avoid all that drama and still get good ilvl for the easy time spent doing something easy like this big rewards for small rish and no drama ftw!

[ID811717]

The problem is that you are thinking backwards.

Here's how it should go by default:
They say hello, you say hello, neither of you will probably talk afterwards.
They don't say hello, who the fuck cares cuz neither of you will probably talk afterwards.

I care, because I learned that these people are likely to quit and waste my time for no good reason. I had to learn it from experience, but in retrospect - it's all just a basic psychology.

In m+ or raiding however, I can just be silent from the get-go and still out-dps or heal or whatever your ass 10 times to 1.
So while in real life you can come at people with the "but it's disrespectful" bullshit like you have some kind of moral high ground
in WoW (or any game for that matter) you can cry how your moral high ground still doesn't buy you any skills to be better than the "silent" guy.

There is entirely nothing wrong with the more quiet people, but they need to be able to recognize when speaking up is necessary, and act on it. That is one of the basic social skills. In the same vein as being an introvert does not preclude anyone from developing their communication skills.

High M+ keys require every party member to coordinate and communicate on voice comms throughout the run. You need to discuss how to adjust next pulls, you need to call interrupts, and you need to call cooldowns. On the fly. And so the people who form the high key community are (in general) very vocal, articulate and intelligent. If initiating a basic human contact (by saying "hi") is a major point of contention for you, then you're a long way from there. It's not a thing to be proud about, but it's as valid choice as any. A choice you can make, but it will limit your access to high end content in the long run.

I don't think there is any moral ground aspect to someone's decision to avoid players who show (sometimes subjective) red flags from the get-go, even in low keys. It's all about self-preservation. I don't want to waste my time by walking the the same trap that I encountered many times before.

I almost never see 2500+ in pugs. I think almost everyone 3K or higher either

1. run only with friends and only on easy weeks
2. are selling carries so they have like over 100 15+ runs.

3k players pug +20 keys.
4k players pug +23 keys.
They are all there, and they are pugging a lot. I have a hundred on my friend list. You just won't meet them in +15s.

[erifwodahs]

Just had this guy who died to avoidable mechanic in something what he called "idiot tank pull" so he announced that he will sit out for next boss and trash pulls before the last boss... I mean he was wasting his own time due to a butt hurt death to a sub optimal pull in a +15 where would would have done a +2 easy even if we had a full wipe.. Obviously I won't be held hostage to such a prick so that was the end of the dungeon. But damn, first time in m+ exp of mine I found a guy like that... Tho I guess there were clear signs - no guild, all of the best keys on his main pugged with different people. Anyway, mind blown xD ofc it's one in a 100 different pug players, I have played with in this patch but damn this will be the one who deserves a punch in a face IRL.

[ID811717]

Tho I guess there were clear signs - no guild, all of the best keys on his main pugged with different people.

Those are not necessarily bad signs.
- No guild: you don't need a guild to play M+ keys from +15 up. In fact, more often than not, the guild will be detrimental to your progress.
- Different people: in the quote below I tried to explain why a player who does one-off pugs is possibly a better choice than the one that plays in pre-made.

If you are ambitious and not afraid to put yourself out there (to be judged by others), you will go ahead and obsessively use any chance to pug keys. It's not necessarily a healthy mindset from a real-life perspective, but if you look at people climbing the rating (hundreds of raider.io points per day) - they often have this mindset. You might spend all evening pushing keys with your group of friends, but when they go sleep - you will go and pug several more keys on your own. That also forces you to be more focused and learn new things. Just like you said in the following:

The reason is also simple, those people are [...] used to playing in groups with friends and don't know shit otherwise and aren't able to transfer this experience over to random group play. Because this is a completely different world.

In a group of friends you always end up having some mechanics that are always handled by your friends, and you can just rely that they will reliably do their role. In a random pug, you will be forced to remember those mechanics exist and be ready to handle them yourself. For example: as a healer in a premade I have 100% trust that my group will disrupt Underrot's Fetid Maggot frontal breath or call out for backup. I can focus my attention on other things unless I'm called on. In a full pug, even when using discord voice, you generally don't have the luxury of turning your brain off in a similar way -- everyone is expected to beware of all mechanics and proactively chime in if necessary.

On the other side of the spectrum are people who only play with their fixed group of friends and prefer to passionately hate pugging. Most often these people are complacent and won't be able to get out of their rating/skill plateau. (Different people plateau at different key levels... Some get stuck at 1k and some get stuck at 4k.)

I have personally been a part of either group throughout the years (obsessed min-maxer vs. complacent plateau inhabitant). You naturally have seasons where you're so busy irl that you're happy to just play any challenging content and share your plateau with similarly busy friends, by doing the M+ alternative to raid-logging behavior. And sometimes you have free time and can afford to get obsessed with pushing as high as you can. The latter basically requires you to go out and pug a lot, and really keeps you on your toes.

[erifwodahs]

Those are not necessarily bad signs.
- No guild: you don't need a guild to play M+ keys from +15 up. In fact, more often than not, the guild will be detrimental to your progress.
- Different people: in the quote below I tried to explain why a player who does one-off pugs is possibly a better choice than the one that plays in pre-made.

Not necessarily bad signs, but I can't see a player toxic like that having any social connections as he would literally sabotage his own time as well as groups over his own mistake.. a person like that is not only toxic as a player, he is literally cancer to the society. Again, that's not a first one who would die to avoidable dmg then "wtf/healer/tank" "u suck" and stuff like that but damn, this one left me wanting to bury a fist in his face.

[Kokolums]

People should not forget why people run mythic+ above 15. You don't get better loot. Probably you are already decked out. If we play a key and see we can't finish in time we abort the key... because... why finish?

If i join a PuG as healer over 15 (not happening often) and we have no chance of finishing it in time i ask if we need to fight through the failing further or if we should just rank down once. If no one wants to abort i play a bit and if we run into a an obvious wall over and over again i leave. Not every key needs to be finished.

Actually I kinda do it because I'm trying to get a better rio score and more high keys done than a friend of mine for bragging rights lol. He also does his in a private group, but I'm pure pugs to add extra challenge.

That is something I would like to see in WoW. A way to set up leagues so people can challenge each other.

- - - Updated - - -

3k players pug +20 keys.
4k players pug +23 keys.
They are all there, and they are pugging a lot. I have a hundred on my friend list. You just won't meet them in +15s.

Wait, are they using friends lists or are they pugging? Those are 2 different things.

[Will]

Maybe don't pug high keys then? Get a guild or form a group of friends. Add and bond with people who are good, who you engage with, and form a nest of people you can trust?

[Kokolums]

Maybe don't pug high keys then? Get a guild or form a group of friends. Add and bond with people who are good, who you engage with, and form a nest of people you can trust?

I think using the Pete Carroll (NFL head coach - American football) method of leadership works best in higher M+ keys.

Bill Belichick is the most successful head coach because he gets players that are not the best physical specimens but they are relentless in preparation, able to play multiple positions, and he's got a guy named Ernie who is this genius nerd type that relays him amazing observations during the game to make amazing adjustments.

Pete Carroll is the second most successful head coach in the league. He does it completely differently. He's a super nice guy that is all hugs and love and making players feel welcome. He assembles teams of aggressive overachievers that are super competitive. Normally you can't do that because the locker room explodes as everyone gets impatient and wants things done a certain way. It never happens to Carroll because he is able to smooth over all the egos and keep them united and on the same page. As a result, he dominates the league. Pete Carroll is one of only 3 men that have won a championship in college and the pros.

You can translate Pete Carroll's style into higher keys. Anytime someone snaps angrily at someone or makes a snide / rude / sarcastic comment, I jump right on it. I whisper that person something like "Please don't get critical or they will leave." Then I step forward and try to compliment the play of the group. That works really really well if you've ever tried it. I've managed to turn groups around into cheering for each other.

[ID811717]

Wait, are they using friends lists or are they pugging? Those are 2 different things.

When you add so many people on friend list, it basically becomes just a "whitelist" of sorts. You can describe most people on your friend list as: "I pugged with this guy in 1-2 keys, and he was great, so let's try playing together again one day". It has some advantages if you pug a lot. If I have nothing to do and see a friend join a pug key, I'll consider to queue up as well.

Many people have 200 players on friend list (that's roughly the battle.net limit), but you can only play with like ~10 of them regularly (sometimes we have to rotate people into a single free spot in a premade, depending on who's online; or at one point in Legion I was regularly pushing keys with 2 premades at the same time).

[Kokolums]

When you add so many people on friend list, it basically becomes just a "whitelist" of sorts. You can describe most people on your friend list as: "I pugged with this guy in 1-2 keys, and he was great, so let's try playing together again one day". It has some advantages if you pug a lot. If I have nothing to do and see a friend join a pug key, I'll consider to queue up as well.

Many people have 200 players on friend list (that's roughly the battle.net limit), but you can only play with like ~10 of them regularly (sometimes we have to rotate people into a single free spot in a premade, depending on who's online; or at one point in Legion I was regularly pushing keys with 2 premades at the same time).

yah thats not pugging. that would make it a lower score completed key to a true pug. true pug is the hardest method.

[tehealadin]

I thought I would share an experience I had last night.


Playing on an alt character around 456 item level doing a +7 dungeon. It was my group and it took me about 30 minutes to get all roles. As I invite each person, during this time, nobody said one thing in party chat. No greetings, no asking for summons, no nothing. Total silence (except for me being party leader).


Finally we go in, do the /readycheck and do the /pull 10 and start the key. As soon as the M+ countdown finished the healer says, "hey guys please take it slow I'm kind of laggy today" and literally almost immediately the tank leaves.


After the tank leaves one of the DPS calls the healer a "potato healer with potato Internet" and then leaves.


The healer then blamed me for forming a bad group.

This can be so annoying. I always greet the group when I join/add someone. When people say nothing and then just as you are about to start they decide to tell you something that could cause problems for the group, grrr.

I did a +11 yesterday, but the tank said right at the start that he and the healer were still learning the final affix, so if that bothered us we should leave now. Was up front at the start, and us pew pewers stayed. Didn't make it in time, he really wasn't geared for a +11, but we understood that he was learning and was up front with us, would have been shitty to then just leave when things started going wrong. He was clear about the risk and we accepted it. I spent maybe 10 minutes afterwards giving him pointers, and he and the healer were grateful that people went about things in this spirit. It was nice. If he hadn't been up front, it would have fell apart very quickly.

[ID811717]

yah thats not pugging. that would make it a lower score completed key to a true pug. true pug is the hardest method.

Damn, your verdict lowered me to well below 4k score. Will have to re-grind the dungeons.
But I will let it be known to you, I will appeal to Bozzelprogress!

But let's get back to the original question for now. Yes, the pug scene is very active in EU well above 3k score.

[Marrilaife]

Yes, the pug scene is very active in EU well above 3k score.

* Only if Horde.

[OFiveNine]

I rarely ever see any keys that high in the lfg tool. So no.

? There are plenty of 22-25 keys on EU during the day/evening