The Last of Us Part II

[Elim Garak]

by that definition - one of the hero of game of thrones is Jamie Lannister. and Bron.

Yes, they are, and not only them. Game of Thrones has plenty of heroes and at certain points, if you rooted for two who become enemies you will have to choose and if the writing is good it wouldn't be an issue.

What? Did you think a story could only have one hero?

and doesn't that suddenly put it in perspective just how flawed and inaccurate your definition of hero is?

It's not my definition. You are not arguing with me here - you are arguing with the entire field of dramaturgy.

I gave you the definitions for hero, protagonist and main character. Not my definitions. THE definitions.

There you have it folks a guy who kills another guy after fucking his wife, a guy who sexually assaults his "friend" and a guy who brutally tortures someone to get his own ass out of trouble.

What a hero. You can't make up this stuff, congrats on doubling down. I thought you would dodge that Trevor line but the fact you doubled down on it by calling him a hero is 10/10 comedy central prime time worthy. Better then any south park episode in years keep it coming man, these are some good laughs.

Hey, being obtuse is your prerogative.

[RobertoCarlos]

What? Did you think a story could only have one hero?

You keep using that word I think it does not mean what you think it means

[Stormdash]

I don't really care about the "it's ma'am" aesthetics and/or reality of the new character, I care that a video game company thinks there is any sense in making a video game where the beloved characters that even made players want a sequel are hunted and/or killed off, AND what's more in making you play as the antagonist.

The sheer lunacy of Naughty Dog in apparently failing to understand that their "circle of violence" subtext message is going to break like a wave over rocks against the fact that the people that they expect to pay money to play this game are going to look at the new character and say this is the villain. If there is replay value in the section of the game you are meant to play as her in, won't it just be in getting her graphically killed on purpose over and over?

[Big Thanks]

I don't really care about the "it's ma'am" aesthetics and/or reality of the new character, I care that a video game company thinks there is any sense in making a video game where the beloved characters that even made players want a sequel are hunted and/or killed off, AND what's more in making you play as the antagonist.

The sheer lunacy of Naughty Dog in apparently failing to understand that their "circle of violence" subtext message is going to break like a wave over rocks against the fact that the people that they expect to pay money to play this game are going to look at the new character and say this is the villain. If there is replay value in the section of the game you are meant to play as her in, won't it just be in getting her graphically killed on purpose over and over?

Why dont you guys like to be challenged and always want the same exact story to be told in every single movie?

Bad guy is bad
Bad guy is used as a means to give the protagonist a "free pass" to kill other people and do inhuman things
Its ok guys this are all bad guys! Its ok to kill them!
Revenge is good and sweet and there are no consequences
Protagonist gets the girl

In my eyes, every movie with this plot is a kids movie.

[Witchblade77]

Yes, they are, and not only them. Game of Thrones has plenty of heroes and at certain points, if you rooted for two who become enemies you will have to choose and if the writing is good it wouldn't be an issue.

What? Did you think a story could only have one hero?

It's not my definition. You are not arguing with me here - you are arguing with the entire field of dramaturgy.

I gave you the definitions for hero, protagonist and main character. Not my definitions. THE definitions.


Hey, being obtuse is your prerogative.

all the arguments about definition of a hero aside (I will concede that apparently modern definition of a hero has been expanded to include a protagonist regardless of what they do, classical definition of hero is STILL someone larger then life, performing larger then life deeds) - highlighted sentence is absolutely fascinating to me, because you know what it says to me? that you are ok with hero becoming antagonist if its written well. so... what makes you so sure that its NOT written well in the last of us two, and why is it ok in principle, but NOT when it comes to Joel and Ellie?


not reply to you specifically but just in general and where the whole root of my issue with hero and villain dichotomy stems from and why i prefer a much better definitions of protagonist and antagonist. why are we deciding that Abby is a villain? is the sole definition of a villain - someone who stands against the protagonist? are we really blurring the terms past any degree of subtlety THIS much? in a story that is so full of gray areas, there isn't a single person in the entire game that is all bad or all good? (yes even David)

[Volatilis]

It's almost a full month away. I think you got it confused with Xenoblade release date lol.

I do agree with your posts, it's quite hilarious people want to judge a game because it got 1 hour of gameplay leaked and they then watched hours of mouthbreathers on youtube trying to bullshit there way around it being "the entire game was leaked!!!!!!!!!".

Well I googled the release date but I guess that hasnt updated since they delayed it

[Elim Garak]

You keep using that word I think it does not mean what you think it means

I'm 100% sure it's the other way around

all the arguments about definition of a hero aside (I will concede that apparently modern definition of a hero has been expanded to include a protagonist regardless of what they do, classical definition of hero is STILL someone larger then life, performing larger then life deeds) - highlighted sentence is absolutely fascinating to me, because you know what it says to me? that you are ok with hero becoming antagonist if its written well. so... what makes you so sure that its NOT written well in the last of us two, and why is it ok in principle, but NOT when it comes to Joel and Ellie?

Because this a game. In a TV show and a book with multiple heroes, you can pick and choose, but in a game, you are forced to be one of the protagonists. The one you have direct control of.
That new character that kills Joel is not a hero because we are not rooting for them because it's a new fucking character with zero development and because they are the antagonist and the villain who then magically turns into the protagonist and the main character in one swooping move and we are forced to play as them. Like it's a hero which it's not.

That's BAD writing. No, scratch that, that's bad scribbles of a 5 y/o

[Tech614]

I'm 100% sure it's the other way around

https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/...o-protagonist/

Nah it's definitely you, using poor vocabulary and trying to argue semantics around the situation when Joel is not heroic and therefor not a hero.

And before you start calling someone a bad writer you should link to your own works before I laugh my ass off at the idea of a guy who can't even properly identify when to use hero vs when to use protagonist is telling an award winning writer they are a bad writer. Even worse then that you don't even know what the writing is because all you know is an out of context spoiler that we have no idea of when why or how it happens, nor do you know what happens after said spoiler. For someone who seems to want to act like they are a proper critic of writing you are are ignoring these facts and making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Big Thanks]

Because this a game. In a TV show and a book with multiple heroes, you can pick and choose, but in a game, you are forced to be one of the protagonists. The one you have direct control of.
That new character that kills Joel is not a hero because we are not rooting for them because it's a new fucking character with zero development and because they are the antagonist and the villain who then magically turns into the protagonist and the main character in one swooping move and we are forced to play as them. Like it's a hero which it's not.

That's BAD writing. No, scratch that, that's bad scribbles of a 5 y/o

1) How do you know there is no character development if the game is not even out yet

2) Its the other way around. Literally a 5y old can direct a superman movie
Superman good
Superman defeat bad man
roll credits

[RobertoCarlos]

I'm 100% sure it's the other way around

So when I'm watching the joker movie and he's stabbing and shooting people he's a hero because he's the protag. That makes 0 sense.

And you failed to notice my princess bride quote so don't pretend you know story structure thanks

[deenman]

We're not though. We judge him from himself and Tess. Their own words spilt it out. They are shitty people, assholes. They admit it themselves. Joel even goes out of his way saying he's no different to the raiders who chase you throughout Pittsburg area. They even highlight how shitty Joel and Tess are when they hunt down, torture and then execute Robert.

well he is still a hero by definition,the only terms from hero that dont apply to him is that hes not mythological or legendary and hes not noble,but by pretty much every other description of a hero,he fits it

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1 hour of a 20 hour game is 1/20th by my math not sure what garbage system you use though.

that 1h is the plot lol,the other 19 hours are walking looting shooting

[Tech614]

that 1h is the plot lol,the other 19 hours are walking looting shooting

Keep making posts like this and it exposes you never played TLOU or any Naughty Dog game for that matter.

Lets ignore your absurd statement for one small moment and say it's mostly true, the leaks still don't show how the game ends. You have no ending to said story so you have no plot. Even in the most ridiculous scenario your statement is somehow still wrong. Must of had to try real hard for that one mate.

[Volatilis]

that 1h is the plot lol,the other 19 hours are walking looting shooting

Have you ever played a naughty dog game?

Do you think when you're driving around as Nathan drake or walking through the streets in the last of us the characters dont talk.....They just sit in silence between cut scenes i guess?

[deenman]

Keep making posts like this and it exposes you never played TLOU or any Naughty Dog game for that matter.

Lets ignore your absurd statement for one small moment and say it's mostly true, the leaks still don't show how the game ends. You have no ending to said story so you have no plot. Even in the most ridiculous scenario your statement is somehow still wrong. Must of had to try real hard for that one mate.

uhm i have...and my bad,the plot doesnt need 1h,its actualy more like 10-15 minutes,world is fucked,girl is cure,man choses girl over humanity,the end....waw

[Tech614]

Have you ever played a naughty dog game?

Do you think when you're driving around as Nathan drake or walking through the streets in the last of us the characters dont talk.....They just sit in silence between cut scenes i guess?

The best part is most of the leak was literally gameplay with no story. They didn't even watch it. If I wanted to claim how much story was in the leak it's not even 1 hours, it's more like 10 mins lmfao.

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uhm i have...and my bad,the plot doesnt need 1h,its actualy more like 10-15 minutes,world is fucked,girl is cure,man choses girl over humanity,the end....waw

Congrats you wikipedia'd a synopsis, now explain the plot. Oh actually wait, don't. Save yourself the time and effort.

[Volatilis]

The best part is most of the leak was literally gameplay with no story. They didn't even watch it. If I wanted to claim how much story was in the leak it's not even 1 hours, it's more like 10 mins lmfao.

It would be more annoying if naughty were not well known for combining narrative into gameplay but its so well known and industry leaders in that regard that anyone claiming a segment of the story therefore ruins the experience of the entire game is not being genuine or know what their talking about and has an agenda for whatever reason.

[Tech614]

It would be more annoying if naughty were not well known for combining narrative into gameplay but its so well known and industry leaders in that regard that anyone claiming a segment of the story therefore ruins the experience of the entire game is not being genuine or know what their talking about and has an agenda for whatever reason.

One of the most powerful moments in TLOU1 was literally finding Giraffes in Utah and there was barely any dialogue or story development there at all but it was a master class on how to show some beauty still left in a shit hole world. You would never know it existed according to these people though, cause they never played the game and instead youtubed some cut scenes and act like they know the story.

[Elim Garak]

https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/...o-protagonist/

Adding logical fallacies to the obtuseness is also your prerogaive

1) How do you know there is no character development if the game is not even out yet

Hero development. HERO. There might be a villain/antagonist development. But not hero. Context - it matters.

So when I'm watching the joker movie and he's stabbing and shooting people he's a hero because he's the protag. That makes 0 sense.

He is all three in one, the hero (we are rooting for him), the protagonist (he develops), and the main character (he is the Joker). If it makes zero sense to you - that's your problem.

And you failed to notice my princess bride quote so don't pretend you know story structure thanks

It being a quote from Princess Bride has any relevance to what's being discussed how? Do you want a medal for quoting or something?

[Stardrift]

I can't imagine defending anything Anita Sarkeesian influenced. Devs admitted it themselves.

Idc about the story. I care about the forced non-problem social politics in a game supposed to be about a zombie apocalypse.

Inb4 the numbskulls who are so disconnected from reality that they can't tell the difference between real life social politics and fantasy politics.

[Kallisto]

well he is still a hero by definition,the only terms from hero that dont apply to him is that hes not mythological or legendary and hes not noble,but by pretty much every other description of a hero,he fits it

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that 1h is the plot lol,the other 19 hours are walking looting shooting

Hero means morally good person of the story. Joel was a protagonist not a hero. The moment he tortured and killed someone he stopped being the hero aka 5 minutes into the post apocalypse gameplay..


Protagonist =/= hero. Antagonist =/= villain.

The closest thing to a hero in tlou is Joel's brother.