No Bards in Lore?

[Shiza]

But both necromancers AND death knights exist in WoW.


"Being a tribute" or "being a ghost" don't mean anything, and certainly aren't a disqualifier by any metric. Both are characters who exist within the lore. And as for a "bevy of bards", again, it doesn't mean anything, considering the only character in the Warcraft franchise used for the development of the monk class was a character that did not exist in the World of Warcraft game whatsoever save for a single, passable mention in a hidden quest.

I would add that nummerically, it would probably make more sense to creat a Bard class than a Tinker. We have a sample size to compare both concepts inside the FF14 Census, which has both a Bard Class as well as a Machinist, which is what a Tinker class would be conceptually. The Bard is more popular by a large margin, so we have a scenario at had where both concepts can compete and we can see what sticks more with MMO Players.

[Sagenod]

God people are way too serious in this forum

[Teriz]

You are using that difference as evidence there isn't interference when interference has little to nothing to do with that "fundamental" difference. It is interference because it causes an overlap of ideas in game ... all engineers are by definition what a Tinker would be, just because they don't use abilities the same and a Tinker could have engineer as a profession ISN'T evidence there isn't interference.

Your argument is "because they are different aspects of the game, they can't possibly interfere with each other." That is 100% pure opinion and 100% false. PvP is different than PvE content with a large "fundamental difference", but there is an influence and interference one to the other.

Now you're using a lore argument that is your personal opinion that isn't confirmed by the game. The only thing that really matters is the gameplay. In terms of gameplay the differences cause no interference whatsoever.

Also (again) professions do NOT interfere with classes. That is not opinion, that is a fact. If you disagree, please explain how any profession overlaps with a class or vice versa. Your argument that in lore, a Tinker interferes with an Engineer is not a valid argument, because that opinion in no way impacts actual gameplay.

[Darththeo]

Now you're using a lore argument that is your personal opinion that isn't confirmed by the game. The only thing that really matters is the gameplay. In terms of gameplay the differences cause no interference whatsoever.

Also (again) professions do NOT interfere with classes. That is not opinion, that is a fact. If you disagree, please explain how any profession overlaps with a class or vice versa. Your argument that in lore, a Tinker interferes with an Engineer is not a valid argument, because that opinion in no way impacts actual gameplay.

Yes, because currently the only possible class that would cause an interference ... isn't in the game.

The current classes have no overlapping theme or anything in game with a profession currently in the game. There is no "religion" profession or "brawler" profession.

[Hadriker]

Even if they did Bards they wouldn't make them right. Bards should be a support class playing music and singing. Wow can't support and support class anymore.

Bards can be anything really. Bards are historically a jack of all trades, master of none type of class, and they often support, but they don't have to be.



I'll admit I am a bard fanboy. It's one of my favorite DnD classes to play. Just take a look at the 5e bard. melee, magic dps, support, and ranged physical dps are all viable builds for a 5e bard (the 5e bard is a bit of an op class though I'll admit) That could easily be copied into Wow as healing, mdps, and ranged/melee dps specs to fit into the holy trinity.

Its also one of the few classic fantasy tropes not represented in WoW. We have fighters/barbarians, rogues, rangers, paladins, clerics, druids, monks, warlocks, sorcerers/wizards, but no bard.

Its a crying shame that that specific class fantasy has never been n the game

[Teriz]

Yes, because currently the only possible class that would cause an interference ... isn't in the game.

The current classes have no overlapping theme or anything in game. There is no "religion" profession or "brawler" profession.

Enchanters overlap with Mages. Alchemy overlaps with Monks. Inscription overlaps with Death Knights.

[Maljinwo]

Adding support bard reminds me of the Blade Dancer and Sword Singer in Lineage 2. You stay afk in a major city until people come to you and pay you for powerful buffs

[Darththeo]

Enchanters overlap with Mages. Alchemy overlaps with Monks. Inscription overlaps with Death Knights.

You don't need to enchant anything to be a mage. You don't need alchemy to be a monk (it is literally akin potion, you might as well say Alchemy overlaps with Rogue. Lorewise, you could use alchemy yourself, but it isn't required). And inscription is literally related solely to runeforging ... one ability of a Death Knight.

You literally need to engineer ... to be a Tinker. You literally engineer your abilities.

[Teriz]

You don't need to enchant anything to be a mage. You don't need alchemy to be a monk (it is literally a potion, you might as well say Alchemy overlaps with Rogue). And inscription is literally related solely to runeforging ... one ability of a Death Knight.

You literally need to engineer ... to be a Tinker. You literally engineer your abilities.

Really? Mages don't enchant their armor for Frost or Molten armor?
Really? Monks don't brew drinks and elixirs to heal and empower themselves?

Again, vague lore arguments like "you need to know engineering to be a Tinker" is not interference.

[Darththeo]

Really? Mages don't enchant their armor for Frost or Molten armor?
Really? Monks don't brew drinks and elixirs to heal and empower themselves?

No, Frost armor and Molten armor is casting magical ARMOR above yours ... that's not enchanting your current armor.
Yes, they don't. They use them to empower themselves, they do not need to brew them themselves.

[Teriz]

No, Frost armor and Molten armor is casting magical ARMOR above yours ... that's not enchanting your current armor.
Yes, they don't. They use them to empower themselves, they do not need to brew them themselves.

Casting magic on armor is the exact same thing as enchanting armor.

Also Monks had the ability to brew their drinks. That never "interfered" with the Alchemy profession. Using your argument, wouldn't a Monk need to know alchemy in order to brew powerful brews and elixirs?

[Rendark]

Bards can be anything really. Bards are historically a jack of all trades, master of none type of class, and they often support, but they don't have to be.



I'll admit I am a bard fanboy. It's one of my favorite DnD classes to play. Just take a look at the 5e bard. melee, magic dps, support, and ranged physical dps are all viable builds for a 5e bard (the 5e bard is a bit of an op class though I'll admit) That could easily be copied into Wow as healing, mdps, and ranged/melee dps specs to fit into the holy trinity.

Its also one of the few classic fantasy tropes not represented in WoW. We have fighters/barbarians, rogues, rangers, paladins, clerics, druids, monks, warlocks, sorcerers/wizards, but no bard.

Its a crying shame that that specific class fantasy has never been n the game

I've never liked the DnD Bard really. It's really good to have one but i'm not a fan of jack of all trades classes. Maybe i'm a bit to suck on the music park of a Bard but that's the part i like the most.

[Darththeo]

Casting magic on armor is the exact same thing as enchanting armor.

Also Monks had the ability to brew their drinks. That never "interfered" with the Alchemy profession. Using your argument, wouldn't a Monk need to know alchemy in order to brew powerful brews and elixirs?

Yes, if you casted magic on armor ... but neither Frost Armor nor Molten armor does that. It is magically creating armor.

And you mean the one ability that each spec had that was used to build a stack of charges to use a specific ability of the spec? Which is implied to be brewing an beverage that gave power to the monk? Does alchemy even make beverages? It was brewing either a tea or beer. It crossed over more with COOKING than Alchemy.

You are literally stretching here it is funny.

[Ielenia]

I meant as in universe bards are shown to be a kind of spellcaster. In Wow they're not.

In WoW, they are. See:
• Russell Brower
• Hearthsinger Forresten

[Unholyground]

I think the only only place a Bard would fit is in the Emerald Dream expansion, because that is all that it is lol.

[Teriz]

Yes, if you casted magic on armor ... but neither Frost Armor nor Molten armor does that. It is magically creating armor.

False. Multiple iterations of Frost and Molten armor simply gave you a magical effect and no armor boost.

Example;

Frost Armor
Instant cast
Increases multistrike chance by 8% and causes enemies who strike the caster to be slowed by 30% for 5 sec.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Frost_Armor

And you mean the one ability that each spec had that was used to build a stack of charges to use a specific ability of the spec? Which is implied to be brewing an beverage that gave power to the monk? Does alchemy even make beverages? It was brewing either a tea or beer. It crossed over more with COOKING than Alchemy.

You are literally stretching here it is funny.

Potions are beverages, but feel free to swap Alchemy out for Cooking. The argument remains the same.

[Darththeo]

False. Multiple iterations of Frost and Molten armor simply gave you a magical effect and no armor boost.

Example;

Frost Armor
Instant cast
Increases multistrike chance by 8% and causes enemies who strike the caster to be slowed by 30% for 5 sec.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Frost_Armor

Calls me false because "no bonus armor" ...

/facepalm.

You still aren't enchanting your armor. You literally just destroyed your own argument because it is YOU (not YOUR ARMOR) a magical effect.

Potions are beverages, but feel free to swap Alchemy out for Cooking. The argument remains the same.

And then what applies is the Runeforge counter. One ability.

Every tinker ability is engineering.

[Teriz]

Calls me false because "no bonus armor" ...

/facepalm.

You still aren't enchanting your armor.

Again, how is adding a magical effect to your armor NOT enchanting your armor?

And then what applies is the Runeforge counter. One ability.

Actually in the case of Monks, it applied to multiple abilities. Just about everything they drank required brewing.

Every tinker ability is engineering.

Pressing a button is engineering? Shooting a gun is engineering? Tossing a bomb is engineering?

[Ielenia]

Really? Mages don't enchant their armor for Frost or Molten armor?
Really? Monks don't brew drinks and elixirs to heal and empower themselves?

Again, vague lore arguments like "you need to know engineering to be a Tinker" is not interference.

You misunderstand.

Mages can have a small handful of enchantment abilities, but that is not their focus. Mages, lore-wise, focus on spell schools like Illusion, Abjuration and Conjuration.

Enchanters, though, focus and specialize the Enchantment spell school, which is why they can bestow powerful enchantments.

The same cannot be said for tinkers and engineers. They don't "focus on different schools". They are the same "school". The two terms have not been shown to be anything other than synonyms of each other. That's the exact same situation with "anchorites" and "priests": they're the exact same, only different names.

The statement "you need to know engineering to be a tinker" is, unfortunately, a fact. You never see "feats of tinkering" mentioned anywhere, but you see "feats of engineering". Even those NPCs you tout as being "tinkers" are praised for their engineering skills, not their "tinkering" skills.

[Darththeo]

Again, how is adding a magical effect to your armor NOT enchanting your armor?

Because you aren't giving it to your armor. You are putting it on yourself. If that is your definition of enchanting ... literally any magic casting class "enchants" and that is just silly. Priests, Mages, Warlocks, Paladins, Death Knights ... hell, Rogues could be argued now.

Actually in the case of Monks, it applied to multiple abilities. Just about everything they drank required brewing.

Of which only one (per spec) was ever called Brewing. Everything else could be bought, just like a weapon or armor. Or Poisons for Rogues of old.