TBC Fresh 58's Only

[Mosha]

I started by saying that I wanted my R14 progress to be carried into TBC classic servers. In TBC players who earned titles in vanilla kept those titles. What I think should happen to vanilla classic servers when TBC servers roll out was never a talking point for contention.

Reread the last paragraph there. You clearly missed what I was saying completely

[Sardoc]

I'm actually more than expecting Blizzard to not have the "Copy everything" at default, and will simply expect you to pay for copying your Classic character onto BC servers. Maaaaaybe they'll allow a "1-time-free-character-copy", and that's it.

Their argument for why they will do that is because "What about people who role new characters on Classic, but then want to transfer them to Burning Crusade later?"... and the Blizzard Sycophants will completely agree with them.

Maybe yes, maybe no. We'll wait and see. I think my idea is the most reasonable approach, seeing as it follows the progression from vanilla to TBC, but still keeps Classic as it is, and gives players options for entirely fresh start for those who want it. You can never please everyone, but this results in objectively the fewest players pissed off.

We'll have to wait. I don't mind waiting though, there's loads to to in Classic still, especially with 2 alts approaching lvl 60. Plus Blizz have Shadowlands upcoming release, so it's not like retail players will be bored either.

[Mosha]

No, I haven't. Classic is still there exactly as it was, no change.

Your point is?...


EDIT:
I don't think Blizz is dumb enough to go with instant 58. That's good for F R E S H™ private servers that seem to pop up every other week and last about as long before another F R E S H™ relaunch.

I'm all for them to just have characters come over as long as they deal with the gold, and I'm also all for the level 58 option and I think the level 1 fresh option is the worst.

You mind explaining exactly why you think the level 58 option is bad? And please refrain from using thoughts such as "Well back in..." because that isn't an argument.

[Djuntas]

Would like this as well OP - Vanilla players have to much of a head-start. Level 58 with bag slots, maybe free 60% mount and some consums in bags...idk, something to start would be good. Edit: I fear this wont happen through so the people with 5-10.000 gold, epic mount and gear will have fun meeh

[Sardoc]

I'm all for them to just have characters come over as long as they deal with the gold, and I'm also all for the level 58 option and I think the level 1 fresh option is the worst.

You mind explaining exactly why you think the level 58 option is bad? And please refrain from using thoughts such as "Well back in..." because that isn't an argument.

It's good for private servers to quickly get the numbers up for the umpteenth F R E S H™ start, or to prop up dead private servers with 15 online, or for bots who want to start farming TBC content as soon as possible. They'd love that.

Otherwise, I don't think there ever was a start like that except the DK class, which still had to do the previous expansion content, and the DH class. But even then you had to have another character at least lvl 55 for DK and 70 for DH. You still had to put the effort of lvling a char from lvl 1 to create these. And apparently with the retail level cap squish, these classes will start from lvl 10. No idea about allied races, I've only played TBC/Wrath and Classic. But so far, instant xx has just never been a thing, at least not without starting from lvl 1 in some way. And it's not even a case of "back in...".

It was on the survey though, so it's anyone's guess if they'll go with it or not. It would require extra effort from them, because they'd need to give people starter gear. What gear do you give? What do you do with hybrids? Do you give them gear for all possible specs, or make them choose one? Do you add extra quests to get gear, or write a script to essentially parrot what private servers did? Do you give them professions to match, or make them start at lvl 1? If you make them start professions from 1, what do you do with Azeroth mats? Do you deploy AHbots to sell stuff, or make people farm Azeroth?

And of course there would be drama. So, so much drama. I personally don't think the benefit justifies opening this can of worms.

EDIT: You mentioned "as long as they deal with gold". Well, with insta 58, you surely would have to get some starting gold. What's to stop people creating thousands of chars for free gold? I did that myself when I had the option, because well, why wouldn't you. Pretty soon you'd have people with the same advantage as the Classic players who AOE farm 24/7.

[Kralljin]

It was on the survey though, so it's anyone's guess if they'll go with it or not.

I think it was mainly just to get a feel what people want, the four options presented essentially fall into two categories, with the first two options representing a more seamless transition to TBC, whereas the other two options represent more of a clean slate start.

Quite frankly, i think the premade option was just thrown in because they most likely knew that the level 1 option is rather unpopular, so it would have skewed the picture rather heavily towards the other side.

[Sardoc]

I think it was mainly just to get a feel what people want, the four options presented essentially fall into two categories, with the first two options representing a more seamless transition to TBC, whereas the other two options represent more of a clean slate start.

Quite frankly, i think the premade option was just thrown in because they most likely knew that the level 1 option is rather unpopular, so it would have skewed the picture rather heavily towards the other side.

Yea, it was a very basic survey, which I didn't have a chance to answer, because the next day when I opened the link it said they were no longer accepting submissions.

They might still go with insta 58, we don't know. I personally don't see the benefit of it compared to the changes required to make it work, and the endless drama it would cause.

[Mosha]

It's good for private servers to quickly get the numbers up for the umpteenth F R E S H™ start, or to prop up dead private servers with 15 online, or for bots who want to start farming TBC content as soon as possible. They'd love that.

Otherwise, I don't think there ever was a start like that except the DK class, which still had to do the previous expansion content, and the DH class. But even then you had to have another character at least lvl 55 for DK and 70 for DH. You still had to put the effort of lvling a char from lvl 1 to create these. And apparently with the retail level cap squish, these classes will start from lvl 10. No idea about allied races, I've only played TBC/Wrath and Classic. But so far, instant xx has just never been a thing, at least not without starting from lvl 1 in some way. And it's not even a case of "back in...".

This is sort of a weird argument though IMO. What you are basically saying is that "We have never done something like this before so why do it now?"

And maybe you just haven't thought of the positives that could come from it but there are FOR SURE reasons to do it now.

But before I go off on a tangent I just want to highlight a couple things you asked and give them all answers.

But so far, instant xx has just never been a thing, at least not without starting from lvl 1 in some way. And it's not even a case of "back in...".

But even then you had to have another character at least lvl 55 for DK and 70 for DH. You still had to put the effort of lvling a char from lvl 1 to create these.

What gear do you give? What do you do with hybrids? Do you give them gear for all possible specs, or make them choose one? Do you add extra quests to get gear, or write a script to essentially parrot what private servers did? Do you give them professions to match, or make them start at lvl 1? If you make them start professions from 1, what do you do with Azeroth mats? Do you deploy AHbots to sell stuff, or make people farm Azeroth?

They have done this before quite a few times.... almost every expansion release since WoD I believe? When you buy the expansion you get a free level whatever the end level for the expansion was. So all these systems already make sense. You give them the fresh 58, you have a preset set of starting gear once you choose your talent tree of your choice, as for professions they could honestly do whatever they wanted with it. Give people max professions of their choosing, give them none, give them a headstart on them, whatever they see is best TBH.

You mentioned "as long as they deal with gold". Well, with insta 58, you surely would have to get some starting gold. What's to stop people creating thousands of chars for free gold? I did that myself when I had the option, because well, why wouldn't you. Pretty soon you'd have people with the same advantage as the Classic players who AOE farm 24/7.

That's a simple one, only give people one boost and allow them to have a small amount of gold. Like 50-100g or whatever. If someone really wants to spend $150 for 1k gold it isn't going to get them anywhere. And if you do think this would be exploited I honestly would be okay with them starting you off with literally an extremely small amount of gold like 10 or 5 or something. The issue with allowing people to bring over 50k gold over on just a single character (and there being WAYY WAYYY WAYYYYYYYY more people with this amount of money today) will seriously cripple the game before it's launched but that's another discussion.


Before this list I just want to say I have a level 60 with epic riding and around 10k gold so none of what you are about to hear is me screaming "GIVE ME FREE STUFF"

As for the benefits and reasons for the level 58 start:

Just getting into tbc content

First and foremost, you shouldn't be looking at classic tbc as some extension to classic vanilla... that's just my opinion. You should look at classic tbc just like you do classic vanilla, it's a museum piece that is suppose to highlight a certain era of world of warcraft. Tbc starts at level 58, anything before that is just fluff. People who have played TBC don't get anything out of leveling in vanilla content when they are paying for the version of the game they are wanting, which is TBC. The only argument against this (from what I've seen) is people saying "YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO PUT IN THE WORK", "YOU JUST WANT STUFF FOR FREE", no...that's not it at all lol. People who want to play tbc, and know what tbc is about, don't want to spend a massive amount of their time to level 1-60 before they reach the game they are playing. Whether you disagree with this or not doesn't matter, there are a ton of people who feel this way and would be pushed away from the game because of this when they could spend a ton of time and money in tbc content otherwise which would be beneficial to those players and blizzard alike.


Benefits for blizzard

I just mentioned this, but I will bring it up again. There are a ton of people who want to play tbc, and just tbc. Allowing the 58 character creation for just one character allows for a MASSIVE amount of players who want tbc, or even 'tourists' to stay in the game longer. If I am a player who did not like vanilla but really really wants to play tbc for example, and it gets released... and I get super hyped, but then I realize I am going to have to spend at least a month or two of casually playing the game to even get to the point where I get to LEVEL in tbc content...that's going to push me away hard. This isn't some retail version of the game where I am discovering something new or hopping into this new expansion. You are forcing me into this situation where I have to put in a ton of time into leveling in a version of the game I don't want in order to even get a glimpse of the game I came here for. A ton of people would just walk away from this realization, and this does not benefit blizzard in the slightest. And realistically it doesn't benefit the population either if you have a weak launch and the servers are dead from the start.

Benefits for the server-wide community

Gold. You probably knew I was going to bring this up. But fucking seriously.... gold. Prices right now on classic are extremely higher than they were when the game was in it's 'current' state. I'll just use one example here, black lotus... Black lotus prices back in vanilla were something like 15g? 20g? I can't remember off the top of my head but I just looked it up the other day and it was around this price. Now what is it today? It is closer to 200g.... I believe it's 160-170 on my server.

So what does this mean in tbc with prices this high for consumables? Well first of all, this means dailies are dead when it comes to farming gold. If you need to buy gems or potions or enchant mats or whatever you need and they are inflated by THIS much and it requires you to do 10 dailies instead of just one in order to buy that one piece of mat you need from the AH...then there is no point to them anymore. The problem with vanilla is that a ton of people found a ton of ways to farm a SHIT ton of just raw pure gold in a game that has literally 0 gold sinks. Now I'm not saying tbc will 100% be any better, but for the most part, the amount of gold you can farm aoeing things don't come close and they aren't nearly as easy as classic, at LEAST from my experience unless there is some hidden form we don't know of. This will force your whole community to basically do one thing to farm gold...and that's farm mats. You will have the elemental mountain COMPLETELY filled with people just camping the spawn and spamming their tag button, you will have a ton of people farming nodes and herbing flowers on the clock, and god fucking help you if you don't have an epic flyer already you probably aren't getting to even touch half of these things.

So eliminating all the gold will allow you to farm up your materials at a much better pace from the start and also allow a era where not every single person you see is already riding on an epic flyer from the get go. Also, it allows for everyone to get money from their own sources if they don't have an epic flyer or want to spend hours tagging 2 mobs for elementals. This allows dailies to stay relevant.

Now before you say it, because I always hear this... "BUT WHAT IF IT JUST BECOMES BROKE AGAIN". You know what? It very well could again. But here is the thing, even in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, if the economy breaks again and we are back at people with hundreds of thousands of gold, it will at the VERY LEAST give us a time frame where the game is playable, and the economy will be in an objectively better start than it would have been if we didn't do anything. (So even if you have 50k gold two months after a reset, you would only have 50k gold and not 100k gold or whatever).

[Sardoc]

Holy mackerel, that's one hell of a wall of text. I'm not quoting that.

Now, to address your points.

I've done some research on the level boosts. These started at the end of WOD/just before Legion, and were rewards for preordering expansions, or throwing $60 at Blizz, or sent to players who'd quit the game to try to get them back. That tells me a lot about how low the sub numbers were after WOD if they were this desperate for players.

What's so bad about just copying the existing Classic accounts to TBC, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel? So what if someone's on 10k gold or more now. They'll spend around 6.5k on TBC training, flying training, epic flying mounts, yadda yadda. Who cares, good for them. Others like that will find another source of crazy income, just like they did in Classic. It's only a matter of time. The economy will be exactly as "unbalanced" as in Classic sooner or later, doesn't matter if you wipe everyone's progress or not. It's not a case of "what if", it's a case of "it's 2020, we know damn well people are crazy enough to try dumb stuff to find that goldmine in a 13 year old game". You can stop with this "before you say x" stuff.

If you made everyone start from 58, you'd just delay the point of imbalance by what, a week or two? And for what, to make sure some no-life has 50k instead of another no-life having 100k gold? Once someone breaks the 10k barrier, does it really matter what ridiculous amount they have? They'd be filthy rich regardless, so who cares. What's with this obsession to micromanage what others are allowed to have? You wouldn't fix any problems this way.

Meanwhile, you'd end up pissing off a lot of people in the process. Existing players (especially those with families and/or kids) would be pissed off, because their progress would be gone. Nostalgia rose-tinted-glasses players would be pissed off, because you'd be introducing stuff that didn't exist in TBC.

[Heathy]

the argument for black lotus is strong because the spawn rates can't compete with the amount of raiding guilds on each server, back in the day you had maybe 10 or so guilds that had some raid progress, in molten core, maybe by mid 2006 you had 20 or so guilds raiding and maybe 10 of those had some experience in bwl.

these days on my server for example there are logs of over 50 alliance guilds clearing bwl and over 20 horde guilds.

the main take away i'd like to point out is that for tbc, there were no fixed lotus spawns, fel lotus could drop from ANY herb. which pretty much eliminates any of the reoccurring shortage issues.

lets face it though ppl are likely saving flasks right now, you need maybe 1 flask for your MT each week and that is it. I was being provided flasks and i've saved 4 titans for when aq40 opens, i'm a tank but i'm OT so I haven't needed to flask bwl for weeks now. the first and second week, sure, this week I tanked broodlord and didn't get one tapped by mortal strike so... everyone is just going to be saving flasks now for naxx. the only raid that is likely going to require them. aq40 might need some flasking in the first couple of weeks, but once you have everything killed, i'm sure it'll be possible with just the MT flasking again.

for tbc flasks just won't be a problem with lotus dropping in any herb and elixir masters proccing 10 flasks from a single craft. raid consumables were just a lot easier to come by for tbc. to the point that it'll be a non-issue. I remember using flasks in karazhan and heroics they were that easy to come by you could piss them away without a single care. when you get to t5 and you start getting marks of the illidari drop in raids you reach a point where you gain flasks in raids.

each week as a tank I currently use, 1 mongoose, 1 superior defence, 0-2 mighty rage potions, 3 faps. and that is it, until probably naxx this is what I use every week as a tank. I make the gold for these consumables back from the raid. clearing bwl/mc is about 60g these 5 potions cost less than 60g. ghennas takes 1 fap, and the two triple draconid pulls in bwl requires a fap each. faps on my server are about 50s each. mongoose is about 3-4g each, rage potions maybe 3g each. potion cost per raid, less than 10g.

[Mosha]

Holy mackerel, that's one hell of a wall of text. I'm not quoting that.

Now, to address your points.

I've done some research on the level boosts. These started at the end of WOD/just before Legion, and were rewards for preordering expansions, or throwing $60 at Blizz, or sent to players who'd quit the game to try to get them back. That tells me a lot about how low the sub numbers were after WOD if they were this desperate for players.

What's so bad about just copying the existing Classic accounts to TBC, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel? So what if someone's on 10k gold or more now. They'll spend around 6.5k on TBC training, flying training, epic flying mounts, yadda yadda. Who cares, good for them. Others like that will find another source of crazy income, just like they did in Classic. It's only a matter of time. The economy will be exactly as "unbalanced" as in Classic sooner or later, doesn't matter if you wipe everyone's progress or not. It's not a case of "what if", it's a case of "it's 2020, we know damn well people are crazy enough to try dumb stuff to find that goldmine in a 13 year old game". You can stop with this "before you say x" stuff.

If you made everyone start from 58, you'd just delay the point of imbalance by what, a week or two? And for what, to make sure some no-life has 50k instead of another no-life having 100k gold? Once someone breaks the 10k barrier, does it really matter what ridiculous amount they have? They'd be filthy rich regardless, so who cares. What's with this obsession to micromanage what others are allowed to have? You wouldn't fix any problems this way.

Meanwhile, you'd end up pissing off a lot of people in the process. Existing players (especially those with families and/or kids) would be pissed off, because their progress would be gone. Nostalgia rose-tinted-glasses players would be pissed off, because you'd be introducing stuff that didn't exist in TBC.

I’m sorry but this is all just hyperbolic nonsense and there’s no point to trying to hold a conversation when you say something like this. You think the economy will be just as bad, as in, people will get the same amount of gold they got all throughout classic IN A WEEK in tbc? Sorry dude I’m not even giving this response the time of day.

And you also took the worst case scenarios from what I said and basically just said “so what?”. That’s not a good way to argue and you deserve nothing more than to be ignored. Sorry but our conversation is over if you can’t figure out what an ‘issue’ means and how you don’t just say ‘so what?’ To it

[Cempa]

This is sort of a weird argument though IMO. What you are basically saying is that "We have never done something like this before so why do it now?"

And maybe you just haven't thought of the positives that could come from it but there are FOR SURE reasons to do it now.

But before I go off on a tangent I just want to highlight a couple things you asked and give them all answers.






They have done this before quite a few times.... almost every expansion release since WoD I believe? When you buy the expansion you get a free level whatever the end level for the expansion was. So all these systems already make sense. You give them the fresh 58, you have a preset set of starting gear once you choose your talent tree of your choice, as for professions they could honestly do whatever they wanted with it. Give people max professions of their choosing, give them none, give them a headstart on them, whatever they see is best TBH.




That's a simple one, only give people one boost and allow them to have a small amount of gold. Like 50-100g or whatever. If someone really wants to spend $150 for 1k gold it isn't going to get them anywhere. And if you do think this would be exploited I honestly would be okay with them starting you off with literally an extremely small amount of gold like 10 or 5 or something. The issue with allowing people to bring over 50k gold over on just a single character (and there being WAYY WAYYY WAYYYYYYYY more people with this amount of money today) will seriously cripple the game before it's launched but that's another discussion.


Before this list I just want to say I have a level 60 with epic riding and around 10k gold so none of what you are about to hear is me screaming "GIVE ME FREE STUFF"

As for the benefits and reasons for the level 58 start:

Just getting into tbc content

First and foremost, you shouldn't be looking at classic tbc as some extension to classic vanilla... that's just my opinion. You should look at classic tbc just like you do classic vanilla, it's a museum piece that is suppose to highlight a certain era of world of warcraft. Tbc starts at level 58, anything before that is just fluff. People who have played TBC don't get anything out of leveling in vanilla content when they are paying for the version of the game they are wanting, which is TBC. The only argument against this (from what I've seen) is people saying "YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO PUT IN THE WORK", "YOU JUST WANT STUFF FOR FREE", no...that's not it at all lol. People who want to play tbc, and know what tbc is about, don't want to spend a massive amount of their time to level 1-60 before they reach the game they are playing. Whether you disagree with this or not doesn't matter, there are a ton of people who feel this way and would be pushed away from the game because of this when they could spend a ton of time and money in tbc content otherwise which would be beneficial to those players and blizzard alike.


Benefits for blizzard

I just mentioned this, but I will bring it up again. There are a ton of people who want to play tbc, and just tbc. Allowing the 58 character creation for just one character allows for a MASSIVE amount of players who want tbc, or even 'tourists' to stay in the game longer. If I am a player who did not like vanilla but really really wants to play tbc for example, and it gets released... and I get super hyped, but then I realize I am going to have to spend at least a month or two of casually playing the game to even get to the point where I get to LEVEL in tbc content...that's going to push me away hard. This isn't some retail version of the game where I am discovering something new or hopping into this new expansion. You are forcing me into this situation where I have to put in a ton of time into leveling in a version of the game I don't want in order to even get a glimpse of the game I came here for. A ton of people would just walk away from this realization, and this does not benefit blizzard in the slightest. And realistically it doesn't benefit the population either if you have a weak launch and the servers are dead from the start.



Gold. You probably knew I was going to bring this up. But fucking seriously.... gold. Prices right now on classic are extremely higher than they were when the game was in it's 'current' state. I'll just use one example here, black lotus... Black lotus prices back in vanilla were something like 15g? 20g? I can't remember off the top of my head but I just looked it up the other day and it was around this price. Now what is it today? It is closer to 200g.... I believe it's 160-170 on my server.

So what does this mean in tbc with prices this high for consumables? Well first of all, this means dailies are dead when it comes to farming gold. If you need to buy gems or potions or enchant mats or whatever you need and they are inflated by THIS much and it requires you to do 10 dailies instead of just one in order to buy that one piece of mat you need from the AH...then there is no point to them anymore. The problem with vanilla is that a ton of people found a ton of ways to farm a SHIT ton of just raw pure gold in a game that has literally 0 gold sinks. Now I'm not saying tbc will 100% be any better, but for the most part, the amount of gold you can farm aoeing things don't come close and they aren't nearly as easy as classic, at LEAST from my experience unless there is some hidden form we don't know of. This will force your whole community to basically do one thing to farm gold...and that's farm mats. You will have the elemental mountain COMPLETELY filled with people just camping the spawn and spamming their tag button, you will have a ton of people farming nodes and herbing flowers on the clock, and god fucking help you if you don't have an epic flyer already you probably aren't getting to even touch half of these things.

So eliminating all the gold will allow you to farm up your materials at a much better pace from the start and also allow a era where not every single person you see is already riding on an epic flyer from the get go. Also, it allows for everyone to get money from their own sources if they don't have an epic flyer or want to spend hours tagging 2 mobs for elementals. This allows dailies to stay relevant.

Now before you say it, because I always hear this... "BUT WHAT IF IT JUST BECOMES BROKE AGAIN". You know what? It very well could again. But here is the thing, even in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, if the economy breaks again and we are back at people with hundreds of thousands of gold, it will at the VERY LEAST give us a time frame where the game is playable, and the economy will be in an objectively better start than it would have been if we didn't do anything. (So even if you have 50k gold two months after a reset, you would only have 50k gold and not 100k gold or whatever).

Great post agree 100% thanks!

[Sardoc]

I’m sorry but this is all just hyperbolic nonsense and there’s no point to trying to hold a conversation when you say something like this. You think the economy will be just as bad, as in, people will get the same amount of gold they got all throughout classic IN A WEEK in tbc? Sorry dude I’m not even giving this response the time of day.

And you also took the worst case scenarios from what I said and basically just said “so what?”. That’s not a good way to argue and you deserve nothing more than to be ignored. Sorry but our conversation is over if you can’t figure out what an ‘issue’ means and how you don’t just say ‘so what?’ To it

Two weeks was an abstract period; I don't know why you took it so literally. But even if it was literal two weeks. How do you know players won't find a ridiculous goldmine, or even just carry on aoe farming the old world? Yea, exactly. You don't. You're being very bitter for no reason.

I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep about someone having 50k or 100k gold, nor do I care enough to try to prevent or police it. It's their free time, it's nobody's business what they do with it.

About the economy. I bet the prices of Fel Lotus, Nightmare Vine, Eternium, Khorium, possibly motes and primals will be much higher than "back in the days". I can't for the life of me figure out why you think wiping people's progress will change that. It might take a bit longer to get to that point, but you're not preventing it. Welcome to any competitive multiplayer environment, ever.

You don't have to respond if you don't want to, that's fine. But don't forget you're not fixing any of the things you mentioned by wiping people's progress. You just end up pissing off existing players in the process. Why not skip being a micromanaging yenta and just let people carry on on their existing Classic chars. It's less drama that way.

[Athulua]

I'm against that kind of solution. The only one that makes sense to me is progressive conversion of Classic realms to Classic TBC realms.
Few months before TBC Classic goes live there would be an announcement with few "forever 60" realms that players can opt into if they don't want to move on to TBC.
All other realms just carry on with everything, including auction houses, player gold counts etc.

Level 58 premades sound like private server stuff tbh. And such a model would make any materials from Vanilla world very difficult to obtain, as players will not be levelling their characters through this content. And how are you going to level up your professions if there will be no materials gathered by levelers?

[Velerios]

In the end they should keep it tbc: no fresh 58, instead you mirror-copy all your characters at once on one TBC server, only 1 copy per vanilla-server. There you can play forward with your char and play TBC. Your Vanilla-Char stays on the vanilla-server and you can play forward with him, but you can't copy him again (so gold-dupe-things can't happen). As always: copy your char only works when your mailbox is empty and you don't have any open auctions.

Also what is with draenei? Leveling them up from 1-58 was part of TBC and this would be cut off. No thanks, what we don't need is such an solution.

[Kralljin]

How do you know players won't find a ridiculous goldmine, or even just carry on aoe farming the old world? Yea, exactly. You don't. You're being very bitter for no reason.

1.Goldstrats that involve farming old materials are far less valueable (for obvious reasons)
2.Strats that primarily focus on selling greys / raw gold either are in the open world (=Competition) or are in Instances, if you're hitting the lockout cap in Classic, you're not going to make more gold in TBC.

Doesn't matter if you can now do a Lasher farm within 3 minutes instead of 10, 5 dungeons per hour are 5 dungeons per hour.

About the economy. I bet the prices of Fel Lotus, Nightmare Vine, Eternium, Khorium, possibly motes and primals will be much higher than "back in the days". I can't for the life of me figure out why you think wiping people's progress will change that.

There is a difference between things being "as they were" and things being affordable for people that haven't hoarded tens of thousands of gold.

It might take a bit longer to get to that point, but you're not preventing it. Welcome to any competitive multiplayer environment, ever.

This is basically 1x1 on Inflation, it's not really harmful over a long period, but damn harmful if it happens within a short amount of time.

It's less drama that way.

No, you're just delaying the drama.
The bomb will drop for a lot of people once they are 70, haven't done any "gold preperation", go the AH and realize that they can afford absolutely nothing, at this point they either have to get by without the auction house or farm gold via the auction house.

[Mosha]

Two weeks was an abstract period; I don't know why you took it so literally. But even if it was literal two weeks. How do you know players won't find a ridiculous goldmine, or even just carry on aoe farming the old world? Yea, exactly. You don't. You're being very bitter for no reason.

Even if it was abstract your timeline was still retardedly small assuming that would happen so there is no need to even attempt to argue with you if you believe or even use such nonsense lines in a discussion. Also, I never said I do know there wasn't some spot, but from what I know about tbc there is nothing similar to this like there is in vanilla. I leave open the possibility for sure because i don't know if something hidden is there we aren't sure about, but regardless this doesn't HELP you argument at all.

I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep about someone having 50k or 100k gold, nor do I care enough to try to prevent or police it. It's their free time, it's nobody's business what they do with it.

Showing ignorance to what I just said, great job. I am not after the individual with this amount of money, I'm after the problems that rise up when the average gold per person is literally doubled.

About the economy. I bet the prices of Fel Lotus, Nightmare Vine, Eternium, Khorium, possibly motes and primals will be much higher than "back in the days". I can't for the life of me figure out why you think wiping people's progress will change that. It might take a bit longer to get to that point, but you're not preventing it. Welcome to any competitive multiplayer environment, ever.

Then you are ignorant to how the economy works, plain and simple nothing more to add. Wiping the economy sets everyone at an equal level. If everyone on average has lets say 1.5k gold without a wipe, then they are much more willing and WILL pay hundreds of gold per mats. If people walk in with nothing, or little to nothing, those mats will not sell for hundreds because no one will have that money to pay for them, they will sell lower. This is EXTREMELY simple. If you can't understand that then you once again prove you aren't worth anyone's time here.

You don't have to respond if you don't want to, that's fine. But don't forget you're not fixing any of the things you mentioned by wiping people's progress. You just end up pissing off existing players in the process. Why not skip being a micromanaging yenta and just let people carry on on their existing Classic chars. It's less drama that way.

Yes, you are literally fixing the problems I brought up with a wipe. Just because you say "You didn't fix any problems" doesn't make it so. I literally explained to you with examples and CLEAR logic how this would be true. And all you have to say is "I CAN'T FOR THE LIFE OF ME UNDERSTAND HOW YOU THINK THAT". I'm sorry but it seems you just aren't that bright of a person if you can't see it bud. Sorry.

[Zeons]

1 fresh lvl 58 and the rest are fresh lvl 1s. Done. Vanilla and tbc are different games. I’m ok if the classic players get pissed and refuse to play tbc. More server space for me.

[Heathy]

Then you are ignorant to how the economy works, plain and simple nothing more to add. Wiping the economy sets everyone at an equal level. If everyone on average has lets say 1.5k gold without a wipe, then they are much more willing and WILL pay hundreds of gold per mats. If people walk in with nothing, or little to nothing, those mats will not sell for hundreds because no one will have that money to pay for them, they will sell lower. This is EXTREMELY simple. If you can't understand that then you once again prove you aren't worth anyone's time here.

the only ignorance here is yours, the same amount of ppl are going to farm this shit, whether they have 1 gold or 10 million gold. the same.. ppl... will park themselves at these places no matter how much gold they have. resetting ppls progress doesn't stop ppl camping these areas and limiting the flow of motes into your bags. the only way you could set the price on anything in this game, is if you were the ONLY person farming that thing. but you're never the only person not even close. even if you are the one with the largest stock of a specific item listed in the auction its temporary seeing as the auction house cycles out every 48hrs. once you've sold your stack of whatever it is, its onto the next guy to supply the auction house with that thing.

if you are on a pvp server, sucks to be you. learn some social skills get friends, camp fire elementals = win the game.(apparently)

I wonder if there is a word for someone who tells everyone else they ignorant while remaining blissfully ignorant themselves. ignoring everything that doesn't align with your song and calling it ignorance doesn't make it so. its been pointed out many times now, that these things are non-issues, its like the bullshit like comparing black lotus to fel lotus, shows ppl don't know anything about the game and are just grasping at straws to further an agenda. how are black lotus at all like fel lotus, you have a herb required for flasks that has limited spawn points, compared to that same herb that drops in any herb node. would black lotus be as rare if they could drop from any herb? no they would not be rare at all.

you need a certain amount of primals and motes for your t5 crafted pieces but you don't NEED this gear to down bosses and make consistent forward progress. you may ultimately want your crafted gear, but it is something that will take time to gather whether you have to 1) grind the motes manually yourself or 2) grind the gold to buy those motes/primals from other players.

my guess is that we won't have t5 right at the start so you'll have months of grinding time before you can even get the recipes for the t5 crafted gear anyway. even so, you're talking about unreplacable gear. items that will last into wrath, I only replaced my tier 6 with tier 7. so i mean why does it matter again. how long it takes you to get your crafted pieces. whether you have to farm half or a quarter or two thirds of the primals yourself. in actuality you only need to do this one time, throughout the expansion. you don't need to grind 100s of primals on a daily basis, you need 20 or so one time. mid way through the expansion. where you will likely ultimately replace said crafted gear for full t6, or you'll eventually use the pieces of t6 from sunwell combined with other BiS boss drops. in the end where the crafted pieces end up being a stop gap to the actual gear you end up not replacing.

the professions in this game since tbc have always been somewhat optional, they aren't required for your guild to progress from beginning to end, would it be harder if no one uses flasks or crafted gear, yes, will it be impossible, no. the fights just aren't tuned that much, vashj and kael'thas the first two hard boss fights are more skill checks than gear checks, you don't need imba gear what you need to do is the fight correctly, for vashj that means, not missing any cores, for kael that means, mastering the phase transitions. gear is secondary to just executing the fight correctly. the large majority of gear upgrades will come from boss kills. killing bosses requires nothing more than 25 ppl to show up and make a raid. like 90% of the gear doesn't cost anything but time and effort.

I'd argue that most ppl will just get the items or some measurable amount of the items they need by simply playing the game normally, as you do anyway. over time. very few things are instant in mmos. getting crafted gear that will last you until the end of the expansion isn't something I think should be easy or quick. it should take time. and it will, again, no matter how much gold ppl have. it will still take the same amount of time it was always going to take. in the beginning the only crafted gear you need is a frost resistance set for one tank and a nature resistance set for another tank. that will get you past hydross and allow you to clear the rest of SSC. you can get the 4 piece set bonuses from t4 without needing to do magtheridon at all. I did most of SSC before I did a raid for magtheridon some ppl in my guild didn't do magtheridon at all until it was obsolete.. once you've cleared karazhan and grulls, once you've started killing bosses in t5, t4 goes the way of the dodo.

[Mosha]

the only ignorance here is yours, the same amount of ppl are going to farm this shit, whether they have 1 gold or 10 million gold. the same.. ppl... will park themselves at these places no matter how much gold they have. resetting ppls progress doesn't stop ppl camping these areas and limiting the flow of motes into your bags. the only way you could set the price on anything in this game, is if you were the ONLY person farming that thing. but you're never the only person not even close. even if you are the one with the largest stock of a specific item listed in the auction its temporary seeing as the auction house cycles out every 48hrs. once you've sold your stack of whatever it is, its onto the next guy to supply the auction house with that thing.

if you are on a pvp server, sucks to be you. learn some social skills get friends, camp fire elementals = win the game.(apparently)

I wonder if there is a word for someone who tells everyone else they ignorant while remaining blissfully ignorant themselves. ignoring everything that doesn't align with your song and calling it ignorance doesn't make it so. its been pointed out many times now, that these things are non-issues, its like the bullshit like comparing black lotus to fel lotus, shows ppl don't know anything about the game and are just grasping at straws to further an agenda. how are black lotus at all like fel lotus, you have a herb required for flasks that has limited spawn points, compared to that same herb that drops in any herb node. would black lotus be as rare if they could drop from any herb? no they would not be rare at all.

you need a certain amount of primals and motes for your t5 crafted pieces but you don't NEED this gear to down bosses and make consistent forward progress. you may ultimately want your crafted gear, but it is something that will take time to gather whether you have to 1) grind the motes manually yourself or 2) grind the gold to buy those motes/primals from other players.

my guess is that we won't have t5 right at the start so you'll have months of grinding time before you can even get the recipes for the t5 crafted gear anyway. even so, you're talking about unreplacable gear. items that will last into wrath, I only replaced my tier 6 with tier 7. so i mean why does it matter again. how long it takes you to get your crafted pieces. whether you have to farm half or a quarter or two thirds of the primals yourself. in actuality you only need to do this one time, throughout the expansion. you don't need to grind 100s of primals on a daily basis, you need 20 or so one time. mid way through the expansion. where you will likely ultimately replace said crafted gear for full t6, or you'll eventually use the pieces of t6 from sunwell combined with other BiS boss drops. in the end where the crafted pieces end up being a stop gap to the actual gear you end up not replacing.

the professions in this game since tbc have always been somewhat optional, they aren't required for your guild to progress from beginning to end, would it be harder if no one uses flasks or crafted gear, yes, will it be impossible, no. the fights just aren't tuned that much, vashj and kael'thas the first two hard boss fights are more skill checks than gear checks, you don't need imba gear what you need to do is the fight correctly, for vashj that means, not missing any cores, for kael that means, mastering the phase transitions. gear is secondary to just executing the fight correctly. the large majority of gear upgrades will come from boss kills. killing bosses requires nothing more than 25 ppl to show up and make a raid. like 90% of the gear doesn't cost anything but time and effort.

I'd argue that most ppl will just get the items or some measurable amount of the items they need by simply playing the game normally, as you do anyway. over time. very few things are instant in mmos. getting crafted gear that will last you until the end of the expansion isn't something I think should be easy or quick. it should take time. and it will, again, no matter how much gold ppl have. it will still take the same amount of time it was always going to take. in the beginning the only crafted gear you need is a frost resistance set for one tank and a nature resistance set for another tank. that will get you past hydross and allow you to clear the rest of SSC. you can get the 4 piece set bonuses from t4 without needing to do magtheridon at all. I did most of SSC before I did a raid for magtheridon some ppl in my guild didn't do magtheridon at all until it was obsolete..

All of this might actually hold some weight if it wasn’t you saying it