What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Powerogue]

Was thinking of the "Vulpera for a day" world quest which did make it to live with some changes to make it more palatable to Alliance players, but still features alliance fire mages attacking Vulpera and burning wagons.

Notable changes include the vulpera having armed caravan guards, and the civilians involved being rounded up while their caravans are set on fire rather than they themselves being set on fire.

I still hope Blizzard never lives that down though, the Purge Squad was the funniest thing we've had in years.

[Zylos]

They sent Kael'thas and his blood elves on a suicide mission against the scourge. When they sided with the Naga against the undead Garithos banished them from the Alliance.

[Varodoc]

It's one thing to attack military targets without warning. It's another to massacre villages. While Daelin saw the orcs as a threat that had escaped internment, the orcs saw some of their recent allies drawing arms and killing them all. Not a single orc survived to tell what had happened from those attacks, which is why it took so long for Jaina and Thrall to realize what had happened.

I'm not saying Daelin's actions were illogical, particularly given the information he had, but the post was about the worst thing someone has done legally, not the worst thing they had done knowingly. From the perspective of all other people on Kalimdor, this was a betrayal of a peace established just before the Battle of Mount Hyjal.



Oh, it was definitely a military and strategic target. For me, personally, the travesty of Theramore is 1) it seemed mostly unprovoked (I hadn't leveled through the Barrens zones in Cata, so I hadn't really seen much of that story from either perspective, and the scenario doesn't really make mention of it) and 2) the amount of force used (i.e. the mana bomb) seemed excessive. I also mained Horde through Cataclysm and MoP, so for me, the events surrounding Theramore were that it offered Baine a place of sanctuary during Magatha's coup in the intro book to Cata, and then the Horde bombed it a year or two later in the intro scenario to MoP.

I recognize that the numbered points above are opinions and can understand the other side, so I don't seek to persuade anyone or argue that people should change perspective. I just wanted to share one reaction to Theramore and why I felt the way I did about it.

As big of a betrayal as when Thrall's forces started cutting down all trees in Ashenvale, the same forest they fought to protect with their Kaldorei allies during the Third War?

[Psykho]

I know that in the "Vulpera for a day" world quest, they do have fire mages attacking Vulpera, so presumably Vulpera are burning along with the wagons that the Alliance have set ablaze, even if they don't show it. My memory is spotty, but from the dialogue I remember, the alliance aren't attacking the caravan because they think the caravan has weapons or anything of that nature; they're attacking the caravan because the Vulpera in general were aiding the Horde. That would make it a warcrime since they're effectively attacking civilians, if I'm not mistaken.



Was thinking of the "Vulpera for a day" world quest which did make it to live with some changes to make it more palatable to Alliance players, but still features alliance fire mages attacking Vulpera and burning wagons.

Let's be honest with nomadic cultures like the Vulpera the line between civilian and soldier isn't exactly set in stone, the only Vulpera that straight up looks like a soldier would be Nisha because of her skull helmet and warbanner, the others are all dressed universally in robes so for all those fire mages know every single one of those Vulpera might've been combat trained, which wouldn't be too far off since they live in a desert full of snakes, scorpions, hyenas, and othr things that would lov to have them for a snack so odds are that quite few of the Vulpera in the Caravan had some combat abilities, the only distinction the Alliance could reliably make between a civilian and soldier Vulpera was who was running and who was attacking, even if they did assume all the Vulpera as civilians their still acting as supply caravans for the Horde so civilian or not they couldn't risk Horde getting any supplies that would give them the advantage

[Schattenlied]

I know that in the "Vulpera for a day" world quest, they do have fire mages attacking Vulpera, so presumably Vulpera are burning along with the wagons that the Alliance have set ablaze, even if they don't show it. My memory is spotty, but from the dialogue I remember, the alliance aren't attacking the caravan because they think the caravan has weapons or anything of that nature; they're attacking the caravan because the Vulpera in general were aiding the Horde. That would make it a warcrime since they're effectively attacking civilians, if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't one of the quest objectives for the Alliance side to destroy crates of weapons?

[Ardenaso]

I think that the Theramore outcry comes from a) the means of its destruction and b) it was Garrosh who ordered it - and I think at that point he had already stated that he wanted to wipe out all non Hordes, at least on Kalimdor ?

My issue with Theramore is less that it exists because the Horde absolutely does the same thing but the in universe reaction to its destruction. If stonard, hammerfall or any other such base was destroyed id agree those were vaild.

The neutral factions decry the Horde destroying Theramore. Why? Because Jaina is a pacifist? Her city state wasn't it was being used as a staging ground. Etc etc. The Horde were already at war and theramore soldiers attack orcs in durotar. So their not neutral.

For me it just highlights the Horde is still a faction of outcasts. The neutral factions are all allaince leaning. For what its worth the "Family of Outcasts" is the version of the Horde i like.

Once again, the real issue with Theramore is not its destruction but the torture of all its civilians, sponsored by the Warchief of the Horde himself

[qwerty123456]

Okay okay… The mass-murder and burning of trolls in their own land by humans and elves. Ah yes, that's why I hate elves

You mean trolls that had recently attacked both the Horde and Alliance and then never declared a truce/peace treaty with them after? Just because the Horde and Alliance had other shit to deal with doesn't mean they weren't justified especially when they sided with a faction that nearly wiped out the night elves and destroyed around half a dozen or so of their cities.

Also the Alliance saved the Zandalari from the senility of King Rastakhan. The dude set up people that the Zandalari had attacked within the last couple years in a choke point with the only access to his throne room, and treasure vault. Then he even let them set up a fuck load of portals there. He was basically asking to be robbed, kidnapped, held hostage, and/or killed.

[Schattenlied]

umm... haven't we all made the resolution already that the Alliance of Lordaeron = Grand Alliance?

The leadership is almost entirely different. They are the same organization really in name only.

Alterac betrayed the Alliance during the second war, they don't exist anymore.

Gilneas left the AoL (lul) before the internment camps happened (though they left because Genn disagreed, and would have rather executed them all for their warcrimes).

Stormwind was in ruins, and it's King and Queen were dead, Varian was living in Lordaeron at the time, as a child, he had no say in anything.

Ironforge was in the AoL, lead by Magni, but I'm not really sure he had any say in it? There's no lore regarding that.

Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, the leader of Kul Tiras died at Theramore before the GA was formed.

Lordaeron, as we know, fell, it's King dead.


So, there's one leader that was alive for the transition from AoL to GA, and we don't even know if he had any say in what happened to the Orcs after the Second War ended... It seems like Terenas made the decision by himself, maybe supported by Daelin, but knowing him he probly voted to kill them all just like Genn did.


But, in the end, how "evil" was it really, anyways? What were the alternatives? They let the Orcs go, who would likely turn around and start pillaging again, or they execute them all... The former isn't feasible at all, no one in their right mind would do that, so, imprisonment is the only "moral" solution.

[Ardenaso]

Also, many people already said it but: the Stonespire tribe

[Stormdash]

Enslaving Pandarens in the Jade Forest, there's no indication anywhere in text that this was done without authorization or was ever punished in anyway, and it is completely unambiguous that they are being held and forced to work against their will.

[Hellobolis]

honestly the most evil thing both factions do are the basics:

-systematic and institutionalized genocide of multiple sentient species deemed to be pests, e.g. kobolds, quilboars, etc.
-sanction of demon, shadow, void, undeath and other types of evil magic, knowing these create fates worse than death on a daily basis.

if you count unrestricted warfare against civilians as evil, then both factions have also done plenty of that. horde is just currently ahead in the killcount.

[Ardenaso]

The leadership is almost entirely different. They are the same organization really in name only.

Alterac betrayed the Alliance during the second war, they don't exist anymore.

Gilneas left the AoL (lul) before the internment camps happened (though they left because Genn disagreed, and would have rather executed them all for their warcrimes).

Stormwind was in ruins, and it's King and Queen were dead, Varian was living in Lordaeron at the time, as a child, he had no say in anything.

Ironforge was in the AoL, lead by Magni, but I'm not really sure he had any say in it? There's no lore regarding that.

Lordaeron, as we know, fell, it's King dead.


So, there's one leader that was alive for the transition from AoL to GL, and we don't even know if he had any say in what happened to the Orcs after the Second War ended... It seems like Terenas made the decision by himself.


But, in the end, how "evil" was it really, anyways? What were the alternatives? They let the Orcs go, who would likely turn around and start pillaging again, or they execute them all... The former isn't feasible at all, no one in their right mind would do that, so, imprisonment is the only "moral" solution.

I asked the same before and here:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Grand-Alliance

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Also, Void Elves sending Hordes inside Void Portals leading to Elune knows where (worse than death)

[plz delete account]

Orc Internment Camps, or Massacre of Tamp Taurajo

would you prefer orc genocide because we had no way to send you home?

[Schattenlied]

-systematic and institutionalized genocide of multiple sentient species deemed to be pests, e.g. kobolds, quilboars, etc.
-

Kobolds openly attack anyone who isn't them, invade and take control over mines that aren't theirs... Far as I'm aware they started the hostilities and continue to be hostile.

Quilboars are openly murderously hostile towards everything that isn't them and they raid settlements on the regular... Seems like they kinda brought that war upon themselves, just like the Kobolds did.

[TheRevenantHero]

would you prefer orc genocide because we had no way to send you home?

That's utterly irrelevant. Saying that enslavement is somehow a good thing because the other alleged option is genocide is absolutely ridiculous.

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Necromancy is 100% outlawed by the Kirin Tor but the Alliance totally lets the void elves conduct necromancy over in Zandalar. An exceptionally evil act that the Alliance is totally on board with.

[Darknessvamp]

I'm pretty sure half elves are a crime against nature...

[Varodoc]

Enslaving Pandarens in the Jade Forest, there's no indication anywhere in text that this was done without authorization or was ever punished in anyway, and it is completely unambiguous that they are being held and forced to work against their will.

The general who ordered that was being influenced by the Sha.

[plz delete account]

That's utterly irrelevant. Saying that enslavement is somehow a good thing because the other alleged option is genocide is absolutely ridiculous.

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Necromancy is 100% outlawed by the Kirin Tor but the Alliance totally lets the void elves conduct necromancy over in Zandalar. An exceptionally evil act that the Alliance is totally on board with.

enslavement?
It was prison. For prisoners of war. You didn't see them being forced to engage in civil engineering projects or to be the alliance's workforce.

[Aresk]

As big of a betrayal as when Thrall's forces started cutting down all trees in Ashenvale, the same forest they fought to protect with their Kaldorei allies during the Third War?

Personally, I'd say killing people is a greater betrayal than stealing lumber, though the orcs knowingly violated a peace whereas Daelin did not. Ultimately the question is moot because the thread is specifically about Alliance actions done legally, and Thrall's forces would not fall under the Alliance banner. I'd be happy to discuss that in private messages or another thread if you'd like, though!

[Kithelle]

Regardless of it being the best option at the time or not, the camps were still horrible and there was a lot less consideration given to them than could have at the time - the camps were still brutal and especially inhumane. The same could be said for the Culling of Stratholme. The action they went with may have been their best choice or not, but the grim reality was that it still sucked.

Some Humans could be rather racist, look at Garithos...would you rather all Humans be like Anduin (Which the game seems to be slowly moving towards all Alliance are like or should be like Anduin :| )