Tor'ghast Changes

[huth]

The answer might be obvious and I'm not getting it. And it's probably a different speculative topic altogether, for that matter. But it's interesting to think about at least.

Apologies for misunderstanding what you were getting at earlier.

Could be as simple as not counting floors or providing less points for excessive time spent/bonus points for being quick. But the exact details would naturally be up to Blizzard.

Either way, this is by it's very nature something that would only affect those competing for the top, since you're hardly going to care if you're place 50,000 or 50,001. Anybody who doesn't care for the competition is free to spend as much time as they feel like. Power rewards are supposed to bottom out fairly early on either way, so they're not a significant concern.

It's in tuning phase. What you see now is probably not how its gonna be in live. And then just how bored should I be to go into someplace to kill mobs so that I can have permanent earth ele there that kicks ass? It would be good outdoors, while doing dailies or getting rep. But why shoud I feel excited about a strict self contained zone that wants me to grind mobs basically? I get my "fixes" elsewhere.

Then go elsewhere. This is a bit like complaining about pet battles.

[Lei]

Could be as simple as not counting floors or providing less points for excessive time spent/bonus points for being quick. But the exact details would naturally be up to Blizzard.

Either way, this is by it's very nature something that would only affect those competing for the top, since you're hardly going to care if you're place 50,000 or 50,001. Anybody who doesn't care for the competition is free to spend as much time as they feel like. Power rewards are supposed to bottom out fairly early on either way, so they're not a significant concern.



Then go elsewhere. This is a bit like complaining about pet battles.

Let me know when pet battles are mandatory for you to raid or just to get around in the game.
Let me know when the dev time spent on pet battles that are flagship feature of the expansion hinder your favorite in game activity.
Alas, do you think the vast majority of players like visions? (seeing the recent adjusments?) Do you think they will like torghast? Forget about me, I only had 3 months paid sub in BfA, maybe 6 in Legion, from being a basically all time subscriber before from the end of bc. What do you think about the general wow players in torghast?

[huth]

Let me know when pet battles are mandatory for you to raid or just to get around in the game.
Let me know when the dev time spent on pet battles that are flagship feature of the expansion hinder your favorite in game activity.
Alas, do you think the vast majority of players like visions? (seeing the recent adjusments?) Do you think they will like torghast? Forget about me, I only had 3 months paid sub in BfA, maybe 6 in Legion, from being a basically all time subscriber before from the end of bc. What do you think about the general wow players in torghast?

No. But the effort you need to spend on visions to get the most important stuff vs. that to completely finish them is quite significantly apart. Besides, then you'd be going into Torghast for something other than just getting OP elementals.

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Spot the cooldown points in these parses:

Careful with that. Retribution is currently having their wings massively boosted by Azerite traits, as both of their best traits buff them. It's also up a lot more due to Vision of Perfection.

SL performance won't be anything like this.

[Kalisandra]

Careful with that. Retribution is currently having their wings massively boosted by Azerite traits, as both of their best traits buff them. It's also up a lot more due to Vision of Perfection.

SL performance won't be anything like this.

How often they're up doesn't change how big the spikes are. As for SL not being like this, this was actually a fairly typical pattern for Ret since Cata, leading to continual complaints by PvPers, both Rets and their opponents about excessive burst and 'hitting like a wet noodle' outside of Wings.

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Which is weird, because I don't recall ever doing this in hard non-timed 5 man content back in the day.

I've waited a minute for Hero and other CDs to come up before pulling in 5-mans in the past. Back before they got reset automatically in raids waiting for big healing CDs to come off (or nearly do so) before pulling after a wipe was pretty common.

[huth]

How often they're up doesn't change how big the spikes are. As for SL not being like this, this was actually a fairly typical pattern for Ret since Cata, leading to continual complaints by PvPers, both Rets and their opponents about excessive burst and 'hitting like a wet noodle' outside of Wings.

No, but the other part does. Wings give far bigger boost than they will without azerite in SL. You could easily do more than double the non-buffed damage per hit.

I've waited a minute for Hero and other CDs to come up before pulling in 5-mans in the past. Back before they got reset automatically in raids waiting for big healing CDs to come off (or nearly do so) before pulling after a wipe was pretty common.

That's not what this is about, though. People think a group will wait 8-9min for Lust to come back after each trash pack.

[Kolvarg]

We don't know yet. Possibly nobody, possibly everybody.

If the mere existence of any kind of timer is what kills Torghast for you, maybe you shouldn't be paying for WoW anymore. Torments are bad, 'a timer' is not. Torghast would be far less fun for me if it incentivized toxic gameplay.

How can it ever possibly affect everybody?

I'm not paying for WoW. Torghast was pretty much the only thing about Shadowlands that could probably hold my interest in the long term, but at this point it will very likely be a sub for the first couple months, and even then only because my girlfriend and friends will be wanting me to play with them.

With that said, why is me not playing the solution? How do you know that the majority of the playerbase shares your opinion/taste, and not mine? You say it's not bad, I say it is. It's very bad, especially when a core aspect of the feature was supposed to be not being timed.

[Beefhammer]

No, but the other part does. Wings give far bigger boost than they will without azerite in SL. You could easily do more than double the non-buffed damage per hit.



That's not what this is about, though. People think a group will wait 8-9min for Lust to come back after each trash pack.

Still no need for any timer. Just make mobs increase health, damage, amount spawned the longer you are in the there. Eventually constantly waiting to pop lust will be counter productive to clearing efficiently enough. You will get less bonuses per session to deal with mobs growing ever more difficult to defeat.

Look most roguelikes have ways to deal with this and none are timers as I know of. You may have timers or treasure chests, and secret areas and stuff, but more often than not, sitting around doing nothing increases the odds of your run ending short.

Simplest way is no not allow lust or drums or any other similar effect. But I wouldn't, I would penalize player for sitting around by sending out seekers to hunt you down for not being active. I would place a temp resting zone every so many floors that deactivates after a few min, enough time to run the shitter or grab drink or bite to eat. But players that stop often for CDs should be penalized by the the tower.

[huth]

Still no need for any timer. Just make mobs increase health, damage, amount spawned the longer you are in the there. Eventually constantly waiting to pop lust will be counter productive to clearing efficiently enough. You will get less bonuses per session to deal with mobs growing ever more difficult to defeat.

Look most roguelikes have ways to deal with this and none are timers as I know of. You may have timers or treasure chests, and secret areas and stuff, but more often than not, sitting around doing nothing increases the odds of your run ending short.

Simplest way is no not allow lust or drums or any other similar effect. But I wouldn't, I would penalize player for sitting around by sending out seekers to hunt you down for not being active. I would place a temp resting zone every so many floors that deactivates after a few min, enough time to run the shitter or grab drink or bite to eat. But players that stop often for CDs should be penalized by the the tower.

Most of them also have some way to pause the game, or are turn based to begin with. And i'm not sure about that "most of them". There's plenty where sitting around will simply result in you not getting anywhere, but won't really cost you much unless there's a food mechanic with scarce food.

But i don't think we even need that much - only people trying to be competitive have any reason to even consider this playstyle, and those could easily be curbed by including run time in the ranking. People not playing competitively aren't particularly likely to be willing to spend 90% of their run sitting on their ass doing nothing either, so it isn't likely there needs to be a mechanic to get them to stop doing so.

[Beefhammer]

Most of them also have some way to pause the game, or are turn based to begin with. And i'm not sure about that "most of them". There's plenty where sitting around will simply result in you not getting anywhere, but won't really cost you much unless there's a food mechanic with scarce food.

But i don't think we even need that much - only people trying to be competitive have any reason to even consider this playstyle, and those could easily be curbed by including run time in the ranking. People not playing competitively aren't particularly likely to be willing to spend 90% of their run sitting on their ass doing nothing either, so it isn't likely there needs to be a mechanic to get them to stop doing so.

Or not have rankings or not allowing their use at all.

[huth]

Or not have rankings or not allowing their use at all.

Actually, i think having time-based rankings would work better than no rankings(as it is likely players would just make up their own leaderboard anyway). Forbidding them entirely may cause other issues, and it's not solely limited to Lust, so that leaves the issue of where to draw the line.

[Hinastorm]

How often they're up doesn't change how big the spikes are. As for SL not being like this, this was actually a fairly typical pattern for Ret since Cata, leading to continual complaints by PvPers, both Rets and their opponents about excessive burst and 'hitting like a wet noodle' outside of Wings.

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I've waited a minute for Hero and other CDs to come up before pulling in 5-mans in the past. Back before they got reset automatically in raids waiting for big healing CDs to come off (or nearly do so) before pulling after a wipe was pretty common.

Maybe I should of clarified, i've waited a minute as well, but not, like, a full 5 minutes between every pull so we have CDs every pull.

Thinking more about it, we didn't do it back then because, while hard, it wasn't hard enough to justify waiting for CD's for every pull.

But Torghast is different in that it keeps scaling up forever? as I understand it. So at really high levels if there are more legendary mats on the line, I could see why people would want to wait for CDs for every pull if there is no timer.

Infinite scaling non-timed content in an action game with cooldowns turns out to be a problem.

[huth]

But Torghast is different in that it keeps scaling up forever? as I understand it. So at really high levels if there are more legendary mats on the line, I could see why people would want to wait for CDs for every pull if there is no timer.

There aren't. Rewards are supposed to cap out relatively early. The rest is just for fun and challenge.

[Hinastorm]

There aren't. Rewards are supposed to cap out relatively early. The rest is just for fun and challenge.

That's super disappointing, depending on how trivial the top floors with meaningful rewards feel of course.

[huth]

That's super disappointing, depending on how trivial the top floors with meaningful rewards feel of course.

Well, doing a weekly no mask vision for your cloak upgrade isn't exactly very challenging either.

[Masternap]

Can someone ELI5 what this 'Bloodlust problem' is even supposed to be?

As far as I'm concerned just deactivate Bloodlust in Torghast. And if someone wants to wait for his 3 minute cooldowns... just let him, who cares? Balance it around people not doing it and ignore min-maxers. At some point you just need to realize that, sometimes, fun comes before balance.

[CalamityHeart]

Can someone ELI5 what this 'Bloodlust problem' is even supposed to be?

Sitting still for 5-10 minutes at a time in order to make sure that all your cooldowns and potions are up, so that every single pull is perfect is a shitty way to play Torghast. It's not ideal gameplay, and it's likely unhelpful to Blizzard on the balance side of things. Unfortunately, this is the optimal way to play Torghast, because without timers or an incentive to play the game at the pace that a class/spec is intended to be played, there is no reason not to stall for cooldowns, and because the optimal way to play Torghast is unorthodox and generally shitty and unhelpful, balancing Torghast and anima powers becomes more difficult.

As far as I'm concerned just deactivate Bloodlust in Torghast.

"Fuck you, shamans, you lose a cooldown. Fuck you, mages, you lose a cooldown. The rest of you are good. Carry on." is probably not what Blizzard wants to have to do to balance Torghast... Where does it end? If you chop off Bloodlust/Time Warp, not only are you shitting on those classes and their players, but you're not fixing the bigger issue, because then the next highest-time cooldown will be what people stall for. Do you just chop off everyone's cooldowns, then? Is that fun?

And if someone wants to wait for his 3 minute cooldowns... just let him, who cares? Balance it around people not doing it and ignore min-maxers.

Interesting. How? How would you do this? I'm no dev, but I would imagine that the best way to properly begin balancing classes in Torghast is to look at who's reaching the highest points of the tower and to assess how and why. Does the idea of going down the list, watching the highest floor runs and going 'Ignore this min-maxer. Ignore this min-maxer. Ignore this min-maxer. Aha, this run we can talk about! Ignore this min-maxer. Ignore this min-maxer. Aha! Ignore this min-maxer.' sound like an ideal way to go about assessing performance in Torghast? Because it sounds incredibly fucking stupid to me. Am I missing something?

Instead of that, creating a system in which the best of the best actually have to have played in a non-troublesome and assessable way sounds like it would make looking at all that data much less of a hassle on the dev's end.

At some point you just need to realize that, sometimes, fun comes before balance.

Torghast is in an alpha state. The people who are playing Alpha and doing Torghast runs right now are not supposed to be doing it only for the fun of it. They're supposed to be doing it to test the system and help Blizzard to make that system as complete and polished (and fun) as they possibly can. If it's fun, awesome. That's great. But if it's fun at the expense of making alpha-state system more troublesome to balance and unideal to play at peak performance than it has to be, that's an unfortunate problem that Blizzard has to fix. Preferably in a way that sacrifices as little fun as possible. Sure, maybe fun comes before balance sometimes. But I don't think that applies here yet.

[huth]

Interesting. How? How would you do this? I'm no dev, but I would imagine that the best way to properly begin balancing classes in Torghast is to look at who's reaching the highest points of the tower and to assess how and why. Does the idea of going down the list, watching the highest floor runs and going 'Ignore this min-maxer. Ignore this min-maxer. Ignore this min-maxer. Aha, this run we can talk about! Ignore this min-maxer. Ignore this min-maxer. Aha! Ignore this min-maxer.' sound like an ideal way to go about assessing performance in Torghast? Because it sounds incredibly fucking stupid to me. Am I missing something?

Instead of that, creating a system in which the best of the best actually have to have played in a non-troublesome and assessable way sounds like it would make looking at all that data much less of a hassle on the dev's end.

Actually, you are missing something. At the level we're talking about, waiting for 3min CDs probably isn't even going to take all that long, 1min CDs may even be usable multiple times per encounter. Also, they already have to sift out extreme cases anyway. You balance around the bulk, not outliers.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Well, doing a weekly no mask vision for your cloak upgrade isn't exactly very challenging either.

Highly unlikely that Torghast will be inspired by 8.3 in that regard, 8.3 has a very high dose of "we don't give a fuck anymore". Expansion launch content usually is handled more strictly.

Edit:
Also waitng for every single cooldown is not the ideal way to play torghast. Unless you already found out how to be immortal, this is just a giant waste of time. If playing like that for rewards is neccessary then the cut-off points for rewards is way too high in torghast. That just means Blizzard failed at tuning again.

[huth]

Highly unlikely that Torghast will be inspired by 8.3 in that regard, 8.3 has a very high dose of "we don't give a fuck anymore". Expansion launch content usually is handled more strictly.

They already told us that rewards should be cappable in an 18 floor run, and that's what they're tuning the "necessary" part around. The actual floor cap is several times that.

[Segus1992]

How can it ever possibly affect everybody?

I'm not paying for WoW. Torghast was pretty much the only thing about Shadowlands that could probably hold my interest in the long term, but at this point it will very likely be a sub for the first couple months, and even then only because my girlfriend and friends will be wanting me to play with them.

With that said, why is me not playing the solution? How do you know that the majority of the playerbase shares your opinion/taste, and not mine? You say it's not bad, I say it is. It's very bad, especially when a core aspect of the feature was supposed to be not being timed.

It'll affect everybody with an ounce of knowledge about metas. If performance is at all incentivized, waiting for CDs would be too.

Again, if a level takes you 30 minutes to fully explore and clear at a slow pace, how would a 60 minute timer inconvenience you? If it didn't show up until only 15 minutes remained, chances are you wouldn't even be aware of it.

If you want to quit over that, be my guest - you wouldn't have stayed anyway.