What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Steelangel]

Enslaving Pandarens in the Jade Forest, there's no indication anywhere in text that this was done without authorization or was ever punished in anyway, and it is completely unambiguous that they are being held and forced to work against their will.

The leader of that group was directly under Sha influence.

Contrast with the Alliance side of the Jade Forest, where the Horde moved in, clear-cut and destroyed an island, used a Mogu shrine to summon demons and used captured Panderen children for fuel. At the end, the Horde leader willingly accepted the power of the sha in order to beat the hero.

It's not even a comparison.

[TheRevenantHero]

Well, the Orcs had exterminated most of Stormwind's population, ravaged Khaz Modan and Stormgarde, and a rather large portion of Lordaeron. Really, there wasn't much that the Alliance could realistically do with them at that point. It was either a mass massacre of people who had lost their will to fight - and almost all willpower whatsoever - or put them in the camp. They couldn't do anything else with them, especially with the likes of Grom and his Warsongs stillw aging war left and right for years.

Also, regarding Necromancy in the Alliance :

a)the relationship of Dalaran with the Alliance is shaky at best; the most charitable take on them is that under Khadgar, they left before the Fourth War/Blood War; the less is that they are turncoats and traitors in there, so their laws shouldn't apply to the Alliance
b)Alliance and Horde allowed Death Knights into their ranks back in WotLK, knowing full well what they did
c)Umbric's use of Necromancy was always meant to be temporary because Void Necromancy seems to be more about summoning a Void entity and bounding it into a corpse rather than the straigh up usual Necromancy, as far as I understood his quests during the Assault -and is one of the few times the Alliance was indeed morally grey ! Perhaps even one of the few times something truly morally grey happened in WoW. Yeah ?
d)the Horde isn't exactly squeaky clean when it comes to this particular form of magic...

Once again, trying to justify offering either enslavement or genocide is a ridiculous thing to do.

The Alliance typically follows the rules of the Kirin Tor. It's why demons can't legally be out with their warlocks and why DKs can't have an undead minion in the city. What the void elves did isn't "morally grey". It's vile and evil because they are murdering Zandalari and the wildlife then raising them up as undead Void creatures. Mentioning the Horde's stance on it is 100% irrelevant.

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enslavement?
It was prison. For prisoners of war. You didn't see them being forced to engage in civil engineering projects or to be the alliance's workforce.

The lore makes it incredibly clear that the orcs were used for slave labor and/or for gladiatorial entertainment.

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Are the void elves operating under the Kirin Tor? I was pretty sure they were independent, having come from Silvermoon and being brought into the Alliance by Alleria. As far as I know, the Alliance at large has never had laws banning necromancy. Bonus: this means the Void Elves acts on Zandalar are considered legal for purposes of this thread.

As I mentioned with someone else, the Alliance follows the Kirin Tor's guidelines for what magic is and isn't allowed. The void elves are part of the Alliance and are not independent. And yeah, the Alliance considers it legal because they're helping kill Horde. They literally don't care how vile the magic is apparently.

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Maybe you could try not mixing in game and out knowledge? Let's pretend for a second that you're one of the Alliance of Lordaeron's leaders right after the Horde's defeat.

A bloodthirsty horde of alien monsters, each as strong as three men, just massacred its way up an entire continent. It burned every city, town or village in its path, and killed everyone it could find. Worse yet, this horde reeks of demonic energies and is filled with mages wielding demonic powers (i.e. warlocks), long known to the most senior mages as a terrible, corrupting force that destroys everything it touches. Through a miracle, this horde gets stopped.

Now you, as a leader, are responsible for what to do with this, the worst threat your people have ever faced. You'd have to be out of your damned mind to simply let them walk away, as you have NO guarantee they won't rest up and come back to finish the job and they were barely stopped this time. If you even know about the Dark Portal, shoving them through it and closing it isn't really an option, what's stopping them from reopening it? (Remember, you and most of the Alliance have NO idea how the hell they even got here.)

That leaves two options, killing them all so they cannot resume gleefully massacring your people again, or imprisonment. There's no good choice here. (Kind of Metzen's point, actually.) If you can think of another option, by all means, suggest it. But you know what? I don't think you can do this thought exercise. You'll rave about me "excusing enslavement" or some other absurd charge and screech about Alliance fanbois (completely oblivious to your own Horde fanboi status), rather than answer this in good faith.

1) Show us where the dead dinosaurs' spirits were ripped out of the afterlife and bound to those bones, since that's Warcraft's definition of necromancy. You can't because they used the void to animate them. 2) Glad you agree necromancy is evil. I expect your vocal support in condemning Sylvanas and the Forsaken for enthusiastically practicing it.

Sylvanas practices necromancy, not the Forsaken. I have always considered necromancy vile and evil. But Sylvanas is irrelevant to this thread. This is about the Alliance and not the Horde.

We don't 100% know whether or not they are ripping souls back to shove them into undead constructs. But its is blatantly clear it is necromancy and not simple Void magic.

As for the orcs, they could have imprisoned them and figured out a way to rehabilitate the more violent ones. That's how prison(outside of the USA) functions in real life. Instead they decided to enslave the orcs and make them kill each other for their entertainment.

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The Alliance has been mostly reactive throughout the lore of WoW the MMO. There's not lot of "evil" in reacting strongly to ostensibly evil things done by the Horde. I think some of the Alliance's actions in BfA could be on the "bad guy" side, as was the sack of Taurajo. Outside of that... nope.

If you go back to pre MMO, the Alliance of Lordaeron was a bit more morally grey, but never outright evil.

The Alliance of Lordaeron helped the quel'dorei genocide the forest trolls in the Troll Wars.

[Raisei]

u serious ?
Draenei : literally cause the extinction of millions of billions of life forms in their escape from BL to stay alive, knowing very well they damning everywhere they go,

You are seriously blaming the refugees of a genocide for fleeing from an unstoppable army of immortals led by an evil god? Were they just supposed to lie down and let themselves be slaughtered? That is one of the most idiotic points I read in the last few days.

Nelf : blowing up the world, wipe out troll tribes to take over their land (ignoring the fact they evolved from trolls, they refuse it), attack orcs on sight because how dare they try to stay alive and cut trees so their kids don't die from weather effects

Yes, those poor innocent orcs that had tried to wipe every living thing from the planet and after meeting the Night Elves went on re-corrupting themselves with demon blood so they could murder Cenarius. My heart goes out to their children.

Humans : the creme of cream, their list is massive, everything they did they see it right since they are light chosen and never do mistakes, their favorite hobby is basically attempting genocide against any race they feel weaker, that list include belfs (twice), goblins of kezan for just existing, darkspear trolls for just exist in their own home in island in middle of ocean!, forsaken for just exist, trolls of all kind to take over their lands

I am not even sure you know what you are talking about here. I assume one of your Belf genocides includes Arthas? You know the guy that was only part of the Scourge let by Ner'zhul an ORC. Warchief of the Horde and the Forsaken do NOT just exist... geezus christ... have you done any quest of them? They literally blight every land they set foot on and murder humans for fun. Of course they are being hunted and killed.

Ironic because high elf still kissing alliance a88 the genocide against amani trolls is on high elf hands, even if blood elf are the one living in quel'thalas, but as long high elfs insist they aren't belfs, it is on their hands

Actually the leadership of the High Elves are now all Blood Elves, apart from the dead ones, so all the things the High Elf leadership did is on the Blood Elves and the Forsaken because of ex-Ranger General Sylvanas.

[cparle87]

not sure if varian was there or not,wasnt it the varian clone?either way,it was opnyxias doing and the nobles that were tricked by her

This is before he left on his journey and got kidnapped. It's definitively him. He just sat back and let Onyxia play both sides against each other, then dealt harshly with the Stonemasons after his wife, who supported them, was killed. That whole thing is on him.

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These characters would have bitched more if they just exterminated all the orcs.

Gilneas and Stromgarde left the Alliance because Lordaeron WOULDN'T exterminate them all. Hmm. Aren't Genn Greymane and Danath Trollbane major Alliance leaders and advisors to Anduin in this modern time. Worth thinking about.

[Thage]

Gilneas and Stromgarde left the Alliance because Lordaeron WOULDN'T exterminate them all. Hmm. Aren't Genn Greymane and Danath Trollbane major Alliance leaders and advisors to Anduin in this modern time. Worth thinking about.

Just jumping in to note, Danath seems to be pretty ambivalent where faction tensions are concerned. If he's called to war, he'll pack his good orc-killin' sword, but he's not especially zealous about it from what I've seen. Dude's just good at his job, and his job happens to sporadically involve killing orcs. Most of the Sons of Lothar are pretty ambivalent on faction tensions--twenty-odd years on Outland where the Mag'har generally mind their own business and the Burning Legion keeps swinging by like Jehovah's Witnesses with battleaxes tends to lend perspective.

[Tharivor]

It's not an ethnic group as it is not comprised only of blood elves. There are no "Sunreavers customs, traditions, etc.", it's literally just a political affiliation.

It's also morally wrong to support a bloodthirsty Warchief who has no problem committing genocide, yet you aren't pointing fingers at the Sunreavers.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, the ethnic group are the Blood Elves. Jaina drove all the Blood Elves from Dalaran, the Sunreavers being the name applied to said Dalaran Blood Elves on account of their leader Aethas Sunreaver. And I'm not pointing fingers at the Blood Elves of Dalaran because the majority of them were peacefully living in their homes which they had lived in for centuries before Jaina was even born- just because a minority actively aided Garrosh doesn't make it justified to drive the majority of innocent from their own city which they had been citizens of since its founding. This really shouldn't be hard to understand- collective punishment is by definition a war-crime.

[Nathreim]

3 times. After the second war, after MoP, and BFA.

Two times. The Alliance is too weak to defeat the Horde after BFA. They didn't even have enough troops to launch more than one attack on Org WITH the Horde helping. By comparison the Darkspear launched several attacks on the gates during the Siege of Orgrimmar.


The Purge of Dalaran had Alliance troops killing blood elves in cold blood.

The Murder of Rastakhan was entirely unnecessary. He was the one person keeping the Zandalari out of the war. By killing him it assured the full might of the Zandalari would be thrown into the war. Whats more Trolls take blood feuds to new levels killing Rastakhan who was popular among all tribes ensured a blood debt that can last thousands of years. Had they just destroyed the navy and left the Alliance would have been way better off.

Allowing the Void Elves to corrupt sections of Zandalar.

The attempted murder of thousands of Goblins to hide their attack on Thrall.

While the camps themselves were not a problem the treatment of some of the prisoners was. They hacked an unarmed orc to pieces when he escaped and tried to protect Thrall when he was a slave.

1) It's not an ethnic group.
2) They were offered the chance to leave the city peacefully. In spite of overwhelming odds against him, Aethas refused to listen to Jaina. He is equally guilty for whoever died in that Purge.

Jaina didn't have the right to order the purge or even imprison Aethas. Dalaran is ruled by a council they have to vote on everything we have seen it in game. Aethas didn't have to listen to her at all she is just one voice on the council.

Jaina when full dictator when she started the purge she had no right to do any of it. He actions later resulted to the council turning on her and when she didn't get her way she cried like a brat and left.

[Theoris]

So as for the thread title question. I guess the Stonespires count, but then that was the League of Explorers, not the Alliance.

The Explorers' League is an Alliance organization operating from Ironforge. The guy in charge of the attack was also an Alliance general.

[cparle87]

Just jumping in to note, Danath seems to be pretty ambivalent where faction tensions are concerned. If he's called to war, he'll pack his good orc-killin' sword, but he's not especially zealous about it from what I've seen. Dude's just good at his job, and his job happens to sporadically involve killing orcs. Most of the Sons of Lothar are pretty ambivalent on faction tensions--twenty-odd years on Outland where the Mag'har generally mind their own business and the Burning Legion keeps swinging by like Jehovah's Witnesses with battleaxes tends to lend perspective.

My bad. It was his predecessor, Thoras Trollbane, who pulled Stromgarde out of the Alliance cause he wouldn't wipe out the orcs. He was friends with King Terenas until this disagreement split them up.

[Varodoc]

Perhaps you misunderstood me, the ethnic group are the Blood Elves. Jaina drove all the Blood Elves from Dalaran, the Sunreavers being the name applied to said Dalaran Blood Elves on account of their leader Aethas Sunreaver. And I'm not pointing fingers at the Blood Elves of Dalaran because the majority of them were peacefully living in their homes which they had lived in for centuries before Jaina was even born- just because a minority actively aided Garrosh doesn't make it justified to drive the majority of innocent from their own city which they had been citizens of since its founding. This really shouldn't be hard to understand- collective punishment is by definition a war-crime.

But she did not drive them out on the basis that they were blood elves, she drove them out because they were supporting the genocidal warchief Garrosh. Why is it relevant that they were, supposedly, an ethnic group?

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Two times. The Alliance is too weak to defeat the Horde after BFA. They didn't even have enough troops to launch more than one attack on Org WITH the Horde helping. By comparison the Darkspear launched several attacks on the gates during the Siege of Orgrimmar.


The Purge of Dalaran had Alliance troops killing blood elves in cold blood.

The Murder of Rastakhan was entirely unnecessary. He was the one person keeping the Zandalari out of the war. By killing him it assured the full might of the Zandalari would be thrown into the war. Whats more Trolls take blood feuds to new levels killing Rastakhan who was popular among all tribes ensured a blood debt that can last thousands of years. Had they just destroyed the navy and left the Alliance would have been way better off.

Allowing the Void Elves to corrupt sections of Zandalar.

The attempted murder of thousands of Goblins to hide their attack on Thrall.

While the camps themselves were not a problem the treatment of some of the prisoners was. They hacked an unarmed orc to pieces when he escaped and tried to protect Thrall when he was a slave.



Jaina didn't have the right to order the purge or even imprison Aethas. Dalaran is ruled by a council they have to vote on everything we have seen it in game. Aethas didn't have to listen to her at all she is just one voice on the council.

Jaina when full dictator when she started the purge she had no right to do any of it. He actions later resulted to the council turning on her and when she didn't get her way she cried like a brat and left.

Wrong. As the Leader of the Kirin Tor (stated by Blizzard), she had every right to do that.

[Theoris]

"Almighty nazi Hitler" when all he did was try to exterminate 15% of the blood elves after they disobeyed his orders, kek. Melodramatic, much?

There's something about a void elf fan making excuses for Garithos that I can't put into words. (Besides thinking of this dude)

Anyway, just a friendly reminder he sent the blood elves to fight the Scourge specifically so they would get killed. That didn't work, so the naga was just a convenient excuse for him to have them all executed.

[Ielenia]

note: "legally" implies an organization knowingly or sanctioning something evulz. So, say, Thrall as the boss tells Sylvanas to NOT do this thing but she does so to him not knowing, that's not really the Horde's thing. Garrosh and Theramore bombing? That was 100% legal and EVUL.

So with that in mind, what is the most HORRIFIC thing the Alliance has done with an A-Okay from its governments?

What is the qualifier to consider something "evil"? Willingly attacking innocents, unprovoked, just for the sake of it? I'm not going to say that the Alliance never did such a thing, just that none come to mind.

[Varodoc]

There's something about a void elf fan making excuses for Garithos that I can't put into words. (Besides thinking of this dude)

Anyway, just a friendly reminder he sent the blood elves to fight the Scourge specifically so they would get killed. That didn't work, so the naga was just a convenient excuse for him to have them all executed.

I cant believe I have to point this out. Just because I am a void elf fan doesnt mean that I have to act like a void elf would.

Also friendly reminder that that does not equate him to Hitler. Show me the slave camps Garithos built for the blood elves and I will concede.

[Feanoro]

We don't 100% know whether or not they are ripping souls back to shove them into undead constructs. But its is blatantly clear it is necromancy and not simple Void magic.

Other than the quests stating that they're animating the bones with void and not souls.

As for the orcs, they could have imprisoned them and figured out a way to rehabilitate the more violent ones.

Considering that's exactly what they did, urged by the Kirin Tor wanting to study the lethargy, and is confirmed multiple times throughout lore, what's the problem?

That's how prison(outside of the USA) functions in real life.

Yay, political crap that has no place in this argument!

Instead they decided to enslave the orcs and make them kill each other for their entertainment.

Ah, HERE's the problem. You're confusing Aedelas Blackmoore with the entire Alliance. The camps were established as prisons for the orcs. Blackmoore established the gladiatorial crap on his own, and secretly planned treason using them as an army. The camps were remote because, not unlike a toxic waste dump, no one wanted them nearby. Further, there was very little oversight because the camps cost a fortune and were already a source of major dissent between Alliance member states, as well as wildly unpopular with the people. Imagine that, the common man wasn't happy about taxes to pay for monsters who'd massacred his family/friends/neighbors! Considering that Blackmoore was planning treason, it'd hardly be honest to try to claim he was implementing official policy, even if the lore didn't make it crystal clear he acted on his own.

Yeah, how dare the Draeneï not dare sacrifice themselves futily against Sargeras and the rest of their kind turned evil like the... wait a minute. Which Orcish Clan ever stood its ground against the Genocide ? None that I recall. All, even the Forstwolves, happily partook in the slaughter - and they didn't face a fallen titan hiding his true nature back then.

Any use of the Hordies' victim blaming meme should relegate that post to nonsense that doesn't deserve a reply. As to the Frostwolves, remember it's ok when orcs do it. Remember, the orcs never had a choice. Nope. /drippingsarcasm

I cant believe I have to point this out. Just because I am a void elf fan doesnt mean that I have to act like a void elf would.

Careful, introduce the idea that Warcraft isn't reality slowly.

[Ardenaso]

This is before he left on his journey and got kidnapped. It's definitively him. He just sat back and let Onyxia play both sides against each other, then dealt harshly with the Stonemasons after his wife, who supported them, was killed. That whole thing is on him.

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Gilneas and Stromgarde left the Alliance because Lordaeron WOULDN'T exterminate them all. Hmm. Aren't Genn Greymane and Danath Trollbane major Alliance leaders and advisors to Anduin in this modern time. Worth thinking about.

Genn, yes; Danath is forgotten by Blizzard and he's as good as Jorin Deadeye and Naz'grel

[qwerty123456]

Two times. The Alliance is too weak to defeat the Horde after BFA. They didn't even have enough troops to launch more than one attack on Org WITH the Horde helping. By comparison the Darkspear launched several attacks on the gates during the Siege of Orgrimmar.


The Purge of Dalaran had Alliance troops killing blood elves in cold blood.

The Murder of Rastakhan was entirely unnecessary. He was the one person keeping the Zandalari out of the war. By killing him it assured the full might of the Zandalari would be thrown into the war. Whats more Trolls take blood feuds to new levels killing Rastakhan who was popular among all tribes ensured a blood debt that can last thousands of years. Had they just destroyed the navy and left the Alliance would have been way better off.

Allowing the Void Elves to corrupt sections of Zandalar.

The attempted murder of thousands of Goblins to hide their attack on Thrall.

While the camps themselves were not a problem the treatment of some of the prisoners was. They hacked an unarmed orc to pieces when he escaped and tried to protect Thrall when he was a slave.



Jaina didn't have the right to order the purge or even imprison Aethas. Dalaran is ruled by a council they have to vote on everything we have seen it in game. Aethas didn't have to listen to her at all she is just one voice on the council.

Jaina when full dictator when she started the purge she had no right to do any of it. He actions later resulted to the council turning on her and when she didn't get her way she cried like a brat and left.

The purge of Dalaran wasn't a purge. The Alliance only attacked those that refused to leave and attacked them first. It even shows Jaiana teleporting people not slaughtering them. And as we see later on Aethas did know about the theft and did nothing to stop it. He broke his ties to Dalaran first by siding with Garrosh.

The murder of Rastakhan falls entirely on the hands of Talanji. Blizzard was too lazy and had to give her the Yrel treatment to lvl her up by killing off ppl for her. Plus the Zandalari had already attacked both the Alliance and Horde. The Zandalari shouldn't expect to do something like that then pull a horde and have no consequences for it.

I don't see the Void Elves completely destroying the land and making it uninhabitable like the forsaken, goblins, and to a lesser extent orcs do.

Thousands of goblins? Maybe a hundred at most. And who was all in on that?

Lets not forget that the creatures in those camps are one of the few non demon races known to rape. It's easy to understand how some of the humans running those camps may have seen them as evil beings not worthy of compassion.

And you gotta remember that all the BFA stuff is happening after the Horde showed they are willing to wipe out the Alliance entirely and nearly did so to the Night Elves when they destroyed half a dozen or more cities and slaughtered nearly everyone. The fact that the Alliance didn't go more extreme than letting some void elves do some somewhat possibly shady shit is a testament to their character.

[LemonDemonGirl]

You mean trolls that had recently attacked both the Horde and Alliance and then never declared a truce/peace treaty with them after? Just because the Horde and Alliance had other shit to deal with doesn't mean they weren't justified especially when they sided with a faction that nearly wiped out the night elves and destroyed around half a dozen or so of their cities.

I meant the trolls that were burned alive during the pre-Warcraft troll wars. I didn't mean the Zandalari either, I meant something more like
the Amani/Gurubashi

[TheRevenantHero]

Threads like these are pointless. As I've seen, the majority of it has people been saying things like "Their most heinous act was not eradicating the Horde" which is genocide or spending the entire thread justifying the terrible things the Alliance has done. It literally doesn't matter WHY they did. What matters is WHAT they did. So trying to ramble off excuses for it doesn't change the fact that the act was evil.

[Theoris]

I cant believe I have to point this out. Just because I am a void elf fan doesnt mean that I have to act like a void elf would.

Also friendly reminder that that does not equate him to Hitler. Show me the slave camps Garithos built for the blood elves and I will concede.

I don't think it's about death camps as much as it's the profiling and locking them up in damp cells with intent of genocide (I'm sure you knew that, though). Not on as a large a scale as Hitler, but Garithos sure would think he had the right idea.

[Feanoro]

Threads like these are pointless.

Yes, shortly after the Horde PR department arrives, memes in hand to derail the entire point of the thread.

As I've seen, the majority of it has people been saying things like "Their most heinous act was not eradicating the Horde" which is genocide

Which you heartily condemn, unless the Horde is doing it. Also, no fun allowed.

or spending the entire thread justifying the terrible things the Alliance has done.

You have a history of taking ANYTHING but unconditional agreement as "justifying". Maybe if yet another thread hadn't been shit on by Hordies pushing the same tired "Alliance is just as bad!" crap which had NOTHING to do with the OP, we wouldn't have to waste time once again pointing out the Alliance perspective.

It literally doesn't matter WHY they did. What matters is WHAT they did. So trying to ramble off excuses for it doesn't change the fact that the act was evil.

So motive only matters if it's Horde's actions? Absurd.